cwater10

Cole is not trusting the process. That will not end well for him in Buffalo.

Imagine there's no veterans... (2022) It's easy if you try...

Filling the Ty Nsekhe void. Sounds wasteful to some, but you have to have those guys. Bonus points for potential development into stud.

They used the 1st rounder on Diggs. Did that frustrate you? You're dodging that fact.

And then they turned right back around and drafted a running back in round 3. What is your point? You said they never spend high draft capital on weapons for Josh. They did in 2020 with tremendous results.

How frustrating was it in 2020 when they spent their first round pick to give Josh an All Pro WR that helped turn Josh into a superstar?

Better late than gaslighting with touches of condescending and dismissive. I am not here to be, and definitely not qualified to be your debate coach or spiritual guide (far from that... lol), so I’ll take a deep breath and remind myself that it’s a just a freaking message board, all is fair I suppose… But really, I am here with a smile and appreciation for your well stated response above. Now I’ll go all in with my own fatal flaw… word-count-mageddon. At any rate, I get it. Stevie is obviously an issue for many Bills fans. I don’t agree with it, but I get the stated objections to Stevie. He was a diva at times. He took dumb penalties. Penalties, by definition, hurt the team. We can agree on those basic facts. I think that most would agree that Stevie was also a Rorschach test for Bills fans. Some looked and saw a beautiful butterfly and others saw a grotesque bat. If I am honest, I can see both on any given day. Personally, I prefer to let the perfect not become the enemy of the good. Stevie was good, period and full stop GOOD! But yes, very, very far from perfect. I still loved his good. After our exchange yesterday, I went back and looked at a few YouTube clips of his career here in Buffalo and I had forgotten just what that body of work looked like. If you take the 30,000 foot view, few players have reached that level of consistently good here in Buffalo. Let’s talk about your observations. 1. You say “Johnson and Hardy both sucked when the Hardy situation was relevant”. No, that is not true and more importantly, it is out of context. Stevie NEVER sucked in his time in Buffalo. Johnson was a much lower pick than Hardy, in the same draft class. He kept his head down and worked as a rookie and became the better player during their rookie seasons together. By the final 2 games that season, Stevie was getting much more playing time and grabbed a TD catch in each of the final two games. In 2009, their second season together, Stevie spent most of the year out with a severe rib injury while Terrel Owens was our rental WR1/Marketing stunt, that rendered both of them irrelevant that year. TO, keys to the city in hand, was going to be the whole show that year no matter what. In 2010, with Stevie healthy and TO “on to Cincinnati”, SJ was in the starting lineup on opening day. 2. I don’t remember much about how Gailey handled the existing roster. I do know that SJ was in the starting lineup opening day, benched and then put back in for good by midseason. I also remember a QB shuffle that eventually settled out with Fitz as the clear QB1. 3. This is one of my raw nerves with some fans regarding Stevie. You say that Gailey maxed out his talent. Did Stevie have nothing to do with his own success? Your prior posts make it sound like a Gailey, with some mythical power bestowed football superpowers upon Stevie and entrusted the chosen one to be perfect. I think Stevie had a hell of a lot to do with that success, and that forced Gailey and Nix to recognize his ability and get him on the field, and them feed him the ball. I think that Gailey and Nix could see it was in their own best interest to get SJ on the field, because that was their best shot at winning. At that is to Stevie’s credit. It was his ability to take advantage of opportunity, where others, more highly regarded had failed. Love the guy for that and then let’s talk about his infamous transgressions. I have a hard time with a narrative that credits Gailey for Stevie’s success and lays blame for Stevie’s imperfections only at Stevie’s feet. 4. So yeah, Stevie emerged in 2010 as a stud WR and a showboat. Well first, color me shocked. You bring in TO to sell tickets, bide time while young talent matures, and then get a case of the vapors when a young star WR starts to showboat when he gets his moment in the sun the following year. Please…. Just stop the righteous indignation and recognize it for what it was. Young player being silly no doubt. Emulating a hero and an influence that the team placed in his room, yes. Loser? Hardly. Can’t go there and never will. That man did a ton on the field and in the community that screams anything but loser. Kelly, Thomas, Andre, Bruce… they all had their selfish foolish transgressions. I think of Andre spiking his helmet during a Super Bowl tantrum. Don’t get me started on Thurman and helmets and his deflation of the entire team, sulking after his fumble in SB XXVIII. Bruce took suspension for substance abuse, refused to attend training camp etc…. I can say that cocaine was part of the culture in 1988 and I’m cool with Bruce and that would be true. I can also tell you that social media showboating was part of the culture in 2010, so I’m cool with Stevie and not see too much daylight between those two statements. But we revere those older players and eschew Steve for far less. 5. Those of us that are a certain age all lived it. And those that come after us will live their own path following this team. I had the Stew Barber years, The Harvey Johnson years to numb my soul with growing up. I spent what seemed like a decade watching games only to see how one player, OJ, would entertain me. Stevie will never be confused with OJ on any level, thank goodness, but similarly they served as some good entertainment on otherwise flavorless teams. All I know is that I enjoyed being a Bills fan as a kid because I enjoyed it. I didn’t need pity because the team sucked. I didn’t want any or feel compelled to bestow pity on younger fans during the drought. They will be fine, just as we were. The door is and was open at all times and worked equally will in both directions. The fan experience is usually the draw that keeps us around. Like it or not, Stevie was a big part of that experience for a handful of years and many of us remember him fondly for that. I can relate to your future attorney taunting you with cash to the cap justifications. I have a 43 year old practicing attorney daughter that will argue to the death that sports are a malignant drain on society. She has an uncanny knack of scheduling family dinners during big games or playoff games. I feel your pain…. And your joy. In summation… BADOL we probably have more common ground that is readily observed. You strike me as a fan that cares a lot. We share that. You strike me as a bit irreverent. It may look different, but we share that. I have referred in recent exchanges with you to different lenses, and I do believe that is what this all about. My lens looks back at SJ13 and sees an old friend, a favorite. Maybe your lenses look back and see an antagonist reminding you of the drought years. If that is so, I get it, but just maybe you can find even more fun in between those starkly drawn lines. You get to choose. But please…. SJ13 was never a loser and he left a much bigger footprint in this town and on this fanbase than any 7th round pick that I can think of. That is not the resume of a loser.

Again, clearly different lenses in use here. I guess maybe, as fans there is some confirmation bias at work in hearing these answers. I hear Gailey clearly stating that the penalty was a grey area, not a blatant violation of his policy, and that he had no choice to bench because it technically fit the rule he put forth. I also hear Chan clearly stating that for the hundredth time, that Stevie was not a bad guy, that he was a good guy that had at times used poor judgement. That is hardly the Old Testament scorching from a coach that you describe. Any lingering questions about where the organization really stood on Stevie was put to rest when the extended him with a very nice payday during the following off-season. Anyway BADOL, you get your opinion. I don't intend to change it. Be well.

A few final thoughts and I'll leave this alone. It's been fun. This is a thread about Bills that we did not care for and you have fairly called out Stevie as being on your list. But for clarity sake, please don't spin my words. The Johnson/Hardy narrative is completely relevant. The point you were refuting was my assertion that Stevie had worked his ass off and got on the field ahead of higher drafted guys. Comparing his career with a guy from his own draft class, drafted 5 rounds earlier is relevant. I'm not sure how you don't get where that comes from. You stated that Stevie was the only drafted receiver in Gailey's first lineup. That is simply not true. Gailey's first lineup in 2010 included former 1st round pick Lee Evans and former 2nd round pick Roscoe Parrish. Their career trajectories do not alter that. Conflating George Wilson and Donald Wilson? I'm not, but I am laughing at my self on that one as I see that I did type "Donald Wilson". Imagine the blasphemy if I had typed Donald Nixon. I don't know where that came from, but again, I am not conflating them. Call it a senior keyboard moment... Donald Jones was a fun player, a nice player and a good guy. I remember him well, but my point was that his primary contributions came subsequent to Stevie's arrival. I think that many over reacted to Stevie's personality and his penalties. Open defiance? Go back in time and look up Gailey's reactions. It's not that blatant. You don't get to say that a lost generation of Bills fans "had no real understanding of what to expect of a winning franchise and had come to accept some pretty low standards" in one breath and then say that you respect them in the next. You painting them with the victim brush for not knowing any better is not respect. And I've always been the cool old guy, even if only in my own mind... My self serving sh*t has always served me well, thank goodness... Someone has to... You have a great day, BADOL. We'll see you 'round, no doubt...

I don't think that everyone knows it. I think that this is a grey area and an unknown. I love McDermott, of that I am sure. I know that he as competitive as they come. Beyond that, I can't claim to have climbed inside his psyche to know how he would respond to every player in the league. I know that he quickly bounced guys that didn't buy in to the team culture and didn't fit the general scheme envisioned for their positions. I know that he also has embraced some players that we may not have expected. Be honest, when Diggs was sulking and tweeting his way out of Minnesota at the end of 2019, did you look on and say hey... there is a "process guy"? Did you expect that guy to be the missing piece for a McDermott team? I sure didn't. With respect to Stevie, he was a craftsman who ran routes as well as anyone in the game at that time. Sound like a familiar skill set? Would he have bought in? We will never know for sure. How would McDermott have reacted to Stevie? We don't that either. But we do have some clues, and not all of them suggest what you say is a slam dunk, sure outcome. Listen to McDermott's reaction on the field last year after Josh took a taunting penalty after scoring against the Chargers last year: https://billswire.usatoday.com/2020/12/03/sean-mcdermott-didnt-mind-josh-allen-taunt-buffalo-bills/ Clearly, McDermott was not upset with Allen's penalty, which many would call "selfish". Others would call it competitive swagger. McDermott is clearly in that camp. Gailey appears to have been more in that camp than it appeared on the surface. If you go back and look into Gailey's reaction to Stevie's infamous penalty against New England at the end of 2011 which got him benched, you may be surprised. Gailey acknowledges not only that he didn't understand how that could not be a penalty one year, but could be the following, he also acknowledges that he had to bench him because he had kind of painted himself into a corner earlier in the season by telling the entire team that would be the result if any member of the team took that penalty. Interviewed after the game, Gailey's words revealing as to how upset he really was with Stevie. CHAN GAILEY, HEAD COACH Q:What's your view of Stevie Johnson's penalty? CG:Well, what we said after we had an issue earlier in the season was 'If anybody got a penalty that hurt our football team for any kind of demonstration, that he was out that game and then we would decide about the next game.' And so, if I say that, then I am going to do it, so he was out. Q:How disappointed are you in him for doing what he did? Because he knows better... CG:Well, you know, I am disappointed. What happens is, it happened last year, he put a message on his shirt, showed his shirt and didn't get a flag. And he does it this year, and he gets a flag. Which one is it, you know? It puts me in a bind because I make the statement and if I say it, I'm going to do it. So, I could not argue the grey area of that. So, yeah, I'm disappointed and if it hurts the team, then I've got to do what I've got to do. Q:Stevie Johnson has had a history of being selfish. At what point do you get tired of it? CG:I got tired of it the first time it happened. But, you hope people learn from situations. You know, there isn't anybody who hasn't made mistakes, but you've got to learn from your mistakes. And everybody falls in that category, me too, and I have said this a hundred times. He is not a bad guy; he's not. He's a good guy, but he uses some bad judgment at times and if you do that enough and it hurts the team, you've got to do something. https://www.patriots.com/news/bills-postgame-quotes-178376 (Sorry for the evil empire link, but gotta take the 10 year old quotes where you find them...) At any rate, the point is football coaches like competitive guys. Sometimes they do foolish things out of enthusiasm and swagger. I don't pretend to know that McDermott would have it, would have been more successful or even willing to coach that out of Stevie. I do sense that he wants to leave that swagger and enthusiasm just as it is in Josh. So BADOL let's just leave it here. Clearly you have a distaste for Stevie Johnson. Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. Equally clear, my opinion runs counter to yours. You may be right. I don't know. But I am not sure that you or anyone else on this board knows how Stevie would have fared under McDermott. I think that it would have been fun to have a time machine to bring young Stevie 10 years into the future to find out.

All due respect BADOL, but as they say; you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. The FACTS are that Stevie was a 7th round pick in 2008, the same draft that Buffalo selected James Hardy in round 2. Stevie proved to be the superior player and made that higher pick of Hardy a distant bad memory. David Nelson and Donald Wilson came on undrafted in 2010, Gailey's first season, but were not really factors until 2011. 2010 is the year that SJ really made his bones in this league. You are omitting from your memory the other 2 primary receivers on the Bills in 2010, Lee Evans (1st Round Selection) and Roscoe Parrish (2nd Round Selection). Johnson's emergence in 2010 was no small factor in Evans eventually becoming expendable. And I think that maybe you have the Gailey/Johnson dynamic backwards. You say that SJ owes his success to Gailey. Perhaps it is Gailey, who was off to a 0-8 start when he offered these unheard of "freedoms" to a young receiver, that owes some of his success to Stevie. In so doing, the offense came alive and finished out the season splitting the final 8 games, allowing Chan to stick around for two more seasons. I guess it all depends upon what lenses you choose to peer through. You refer to a lost generation of young Bills fans with low standards. Seriously, WTF is that crap? I have been going to games since they were played at War Memorial. I've seen it all, on and off the field and I'll guarantee that you know precious little about my "standards" or expectations. I know good football players when I see them. I know good fans when I see them and hear them. And neither can be pigeon holed into some pre-conceived notion that you may have about generations, work ethics, etc.... Young fans and old are individuals, not the monolith that you seem to be pointing to. Same with players... They come in all shapes, sizes and from all cultures. They are individuals playing a team game. Stevie was both. I celebrate him. And most importantly, as an official old fool, I raise a toast to that young lost generation that seems to perplex you. Take a closer look and open your eyes. They sat through that crap, sans the good memories from the glory years and are still here to revel in the return of the good times. That is a fan. Cheers! Besides... How in the hell do you resent a player that pretended to fire a musket at the Patriot mascot. That is pure gold. If that team had more players with that level of passion, that decade would have been so much more enjoyable and memorable.

Huh? This is the polar opposite of how I experienced Stevie. I remember a 7th round pick that busted his ass to get on the field ahead of some considerably higher drafted guys, becoming the first Bill to post 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons, and then showed his Buffalo love by signing an extension to stay and to the best of my memory, never once complained about a thing. Did he like to have his fun? He did. Why so serious BadolBilz? Stevie was fun and good!

Scott Norwood thanks you for forgetting... Really, it meant nothing, nothing at all.

Home - Pink Floyd Having moved away years ago, The Bills remain my primary link to my old Buffalo Home! This song IS how it feels to watch the Bills this year especially, but really... every other year too. They will always cast their spell on me. Home Home again I like to be here When I can When I come home Cold and tired It's good to warm my bones Beside the fire Far away Across the field Tolling on the iron bell Calls the faithful to their knees To hear the softly spoken magic spell

Two words: Rob Johnson

10

"Seldom turns out the way it does in a song Once it a while you get shown the light In the strangest places if you look at it right" Thank you for your reliable wisdom Jerry. The world misses you, but we remember your words... if not all of the shows... And I see you Daggers. Tongue in cheek? Maybe. Maybe not. So yeah, unexpectedly 2020 has stepped up. In its own tormented way, 2020 has shown us Bills fans some light, and with a look at the goodies that humanity might just throw our way when we are open to them. This hell hole of a year... left us all just shaking our heads in dismay for so many months. For many of us, myself included, things got too real to even want to talk about yet . Yeah, it's still too soon in so many ways, but the door is swinging open. So yeah, I see you too, 2020. And while I want to scream a loud "expletive deleted" in your direction, I'll just put it defiantly in text. We'll be back! And just like The Hoodie figured about himself last night, you won't be. Ha! Details spared, but by February, real life had visited my household with devastation that would shake multiple families. By late February, I didn't know what was hitting me, and from what direction it was hitting. Surreal is the only word that comes to mind of the start to this year. And then 2020 really got untracked. It came in waves. It all sucked beyond anything speakable. The misery seemed unending and unbearable. And then, just when the dystopia was completely having its way with me, there was a fragment of unexpected goodness. Some way, somehow, and out of somewhere that I wasn't even looking to, The Bills, this year, brought back something to smile about, something worthwhile to be distracted with. Watching Belichick throw the phone last night made me laugh out loud. Man that felt good. This Bills season... It all feels so damn good, it has so restored my psyche to some memory of normalcy, of fun, of community and something good. The Josh Allen/Oisheis Hospital story, the airport scene, the beatdown of The Hoodie last night... These will be the goodies that we get to take away from 2020. The miserable crap will eventually fade away. Life has a way of healing us or forcing us to pick up the pieces and move forward. Real life good news has been starting to trickle into my home for a few weeks now. That is real. That is more than a goodie. Thats real life, sometimes all too real, sometimes remarkable and good in surprising moments. There is still pain. There are still scars from this horrible year. There remains a sense of permanent damage and there will forever be loss from 2020. But hope... yeah that might be creeping back in too. Thanks Bills, and thanks Bills Mafia for being my vehicle though the debacle that has been 2020. You delivered.

This! At the time, the red helmets were not received well at all. They were ridiculed as an eyesore, laughed at a symbol of our QB flaws and ... rightly so. They ruined a classic uniform. They should remain in storage until we ever lure Fergy out of retirement.

Was there a tiki torch involved?

He is billion year old carbon...

O.J. made me a Bills fan in 1973 and I was hooked for life. He was bigger than the team at that time. If you ran into someone who didn't see a game, the questions in order would be: 1). How many yards did OJ have? 2.) Who won? However, the Chuck Knox Bills were my favorite Bills teams ever, and just as heartbreaking as the Super Bowl Bills. My emotional bond to those teams was similar to the '75 Sabres. Thank You Bills! I have yet to witness anything like the on field insanity after breaking the Miami curse on opening day in 1980 or later that same year after beating The Rams in OT in the fog. Ferguson to Butler was like watching poetry on a football field. Those two are easily my favorites from those teams. I still think about Ferguson's broken ankle in the 1980 playoffs in the same way as "wide right". Just so unjust of the football gods! I think a great deal of these answers depend on when we were born... Obviously! Thanks St. Doug, you didn't make the list. ***. A special shout out to the guy who did the goal post high wire act against The Giants on Monday Night Football in 1975!

Love this exercise. For me, some guys were simply too damn fun to route for. If it's about favorite, they beat out other more talented or more accomplished guys. First Team: 2 - Steve Christie 17 - Josh Allen (yeah, I said it. Kelly not even favorite 12) 20 - Robert James 34 - Thurman (OJ, you were great, but not sorry) 46 - Leonard Smith 55 - Jim Haslett 67 - Reggie McKenzie 78 - Bruuuuuce 80 - Jerry Butler 97 - Biscuit (So much talent and so much fun to watch) Second Team: 8 - Brian Moorman 12 - Joe Ferguson 27 - Tre White 32 - O.J. Simpson 41 - Jamie Mueller 59 - Shane Nelson 67 - Kent Hull 76 - Fred Smerlas 83 - Andre Reed 95 - Kyle Williams Third Team: 7- Doug Flutie (Could not thing of another former New Jersey General) 12 - Jim Kelly (Could not think of a better former Houston Gambler) 20 - Joe Cribbs (Could not think of a better Birminham Stallion) 33 - Ronnie Harmon... No, Not Really! Of course its Sam Gash! 43 - Tony Greene 54 - C Spielman 68 - Joe DeLamielleure 72 - Holding, #72 Ken Jones (Noses out Offside, #76) But it was close. 89 - Steve Tasker 9X - All of the "High Motor" guys that played through the drought. Alternates: 5 - Nick Mike-Meyer 13 - Stevie Johnson 20 - Travis Henry (the runner, not the passer) 34 - Jim Braxton 44 - Derrick Holmes 51 - Brian Campbell (All time leader in goals scored at Bills Stadium) 69 - Conrad Dobler 70 - Eric Wood 80 - Eric Moulds 92 - Mount Washington

C'mon man... When you find yourself in a hole, just stop digging. By that logic, the 2009 Belichick was out-coached by Dick Jauron (fired at mid season that year) on the Monday Night Football opener when McKelvin (coached by Dick Jauron, I remind you) foolishly decided to bring the ball out of the end zone and fumble. New England struggled mightily to win that game. Sometimes overmatched teams just rise up to a moment. The NFL is a week to week league. If you try to live by ought to be's, shoulds, and formulas of expectation as an NFL season unfolds, your head is going to explode. Don't do that man... It's not just a buzz kill, it's unnecessary and It's painful to watch. "Why so serious?"

I'm not convinced that you do get it. Being prepared and forcing breaks that turn pivotal moments in your favor is how you get to success. We should be very happy with that. It's how most successful teams transform 3-5 or 4-4 mediocrities into 6-2 winners. I'll leave you with a quote from a Hall of Fame coach and then call it a day. Go Bills! "Failures are expected by losers, ignored by winners." – Joe Gibbs, former Washington Redskins head coach and three-time Super Bowl champion.

You want a quick two words to chew on with your breakfast while you ponder who out-coached whom yesterday? Here you go: Tyler Matakevich! Let that tongue twisting name wash over your palate for a moment or for several minutes if that's what it takes for you to get it. Put that name, that salad of iambic pentameter like sounds in your mouth over and over again before you take your coaching review to the keyboard again. For at least twenty years, we have coined the phrase "Billsy" applied it to creative new ways to achieve heartbreak and losses. Yesterday was again "Billsy", but not by us. Mediocre coaches, and we've had our share, never saw these moments looming or approaching. They, and we were devastated time and time again as these little moments turned into the bigger more obvious turning points that turned wins (and winds) to losses into Bills Mafia ulcers and our team's successes into failures. Think, if you can stomach it over breakfast, about McKelvin bringing the ball out of and end zone, or a defensive scheme responsible for leaving Dallas receivers uncovered near a sideline with only seconds to play. These little ominous moments were our way of football life for so long that we became almost numb to them. These were our trademark needless, unforced errors based in fear and desperation. Yesterday, our perennial perpetrator of these moments came calling with another of these potential kicks to the crotch. And McDermott had his team ready for it. Tyler Matakevich never blinked at the moment. He never flinched as he embraced as he embraced the attempted dagger of an onside kick from Belichick. In that moment, the tables turned on the coaching equilibrium in the AFC East. McDermott had his team prepared and they made New England pay instantly on the scoreboard and ultimately with the game and their season falling hopelessly away from them. It was an foolish coaching decision, an unforced error by the Pats, based in fear and desperation. McDermott and his team caused them to go there. And he had his team prepared to make the Pats pay for it with their season. I like being on this side of the equation. I like winning the close ones. I like causing the heartbreak for a change. I'm getting comfortable with it. Why can't so many of you enjoy this? Trust the process folks.