dayman

Well to cut to the chase the bottom line with me personally is I'm just not interested in the case. So I don't mean to suggest that I roll my eyes only at the thread here...and also I make a lot of assumption about what is in the thread I don't click on it. Well I really don't but then again I'm only leaning left in the current political climate despite my reputation. I have literally never watched Sharpton and honestly (embarrassingly so but I'll admit it) don't know who you are referring to w/ "jj." Some think it's a cop-out of pretentious to self-identify as a "centrist" but over time I generally think that's the best description. I admit though I'm certainly "the left" relative to this board and probably clearly left-leaning in 2012. But that doesn't mean I'm Al's boy or a Bush hater in unfair ways or against having money or anything like that...

Well I said the coverage was out of control and I mean it. I do believe that so I don't really disagree there. That said the story certainly had light shed on it either way....

Well I'm generally sympathetic to issues some presidents dealt with including Carter and Bush (so we're actually similar there) but it isn't unfair to criticize the the man in charge when things go wrong and it's my personal view point as I said earlier that he should be (and in fact it is his job/responsibility to be) more hands at least when compared to more hands off...if you lean towards the more hands off approach I can see how that may reasonably change the analysis.

I don't mind the Obama comment it was a tragedy and he's sympathetic as a leader. I'm sure a number of people will disagree. As for the DOJ...investigations are investigations they aren't inherently bad and they happen a lot with matter of large public concern where injustice may or may not be present. The bottom line, as I see it...is that he should have been arrested and the case should go to trial as it has. Ultimately that's what happened and now whatever the verdict is we accept. I just don't see the issue as political but it is just my opinion. Now it does shed light to stand your ground and that is political if the people of Florida decide the law is ambiguous or otherwise not good policy...but that's a separate discussion. What happened or is happening in that thread is probably everything I despise about this case from both view points but once again I haven't read it. As a side not I'll just add that it is my personal opinion that he should have been arrested (not convicted) soon after and the media attention while out of control on both sides brought the issue to light...something the media is traditionally supposed to do.

lol you are a troll of epic proportions sir I tip my hat

It is too much to read and I'll take you at your word. As far as I known from general society the initial outrage was over the no arrest for so long and right or wrong that is at least credible IMO but as for the case itself it's in court now and that's that.

lol well IDK know anything about that or the Trayvon thread...to honest the law is the law and politicizing this issue is a distraction but that's just my opinion and I recognize both sides have credible arguments of why it's a big deal one way or the other etc...not surprising of all topics that would be one that would have craziness

LOL let us be real probably not. Thing is if you are a civil liberal engaging in civil discussion w/ a civil conservative you'll still be getting snipped at/cheap shots from other conservatives here bashing you and before long you'll be on the defensive against all including the one you originally were civil with.

So the answer is mostly yes even from staunch anti-Obama folk...except in the case of Tom who writes the POTUS a blank check and gives no credit but also no blame for any actions taken in good faith.

mamma says a lot of things...mamma sometimes full of ****

LOL fair enough. But c'mon man...anything that sheds a positive light on his leadership shouldn't be seen as a lie no matter what party you identify with. And in any event, the huge difference between "adding value" and drawing the plan...I mean yes unilaterally doing everything wouldn't be a good idea (although he could do that and then order it to be done) but that just is never the case no president is that idiotic. Point being they should be as involved as they need to be to approve of it..whatever that level of involvement is. The posted article highlights one instance where he was more involved than previous posts thought he should be and it was good. If it was bad and he said only take 2 helicopters and original plan called for 4...that would be bad. But it was good. It's his call. President is the President. Bleh...still don't see how anyone can say this.

Well it's not really fair to attack his statement with that b/c he clearly was not talking about state action. The better argument is just to point out that what he's really opposed to is the 13th amendment which requires no state action and bans not only slavery/involuntary servitude but "badges and incidents" thereof (like racial discrimination in housing)....and then of course Commerce Clause does destroy things further for any argument on behalf of that idea. The "state being able to discriminate" is not more interesting lol that's cut and dry...the private right to discriminate is the more interesting argument although it's a clear cut loser as well.

LOL I think I went into the facebook thread a bit. GAy marriage and Trayvon threads? If you go in there you deserve whatever you get/read. The Trayvon thing is so stupid on both sides and Gay Marriage is just the most retarded issue of our time. If you discuss the very issues MEANT to distract and divide people don't be surprised when retarded discussion comes out of it.

I have had fairly "normal" discussions with some people here about things we disagree on. Rob's House w/ insurance most recently but a few other things in the past as well.

Believe it or not if does happen here from time to time.

B/c of the far right obviously :)

I'm no implying the President should sit down and plan every little thing but the "world of difference" is an overstatement IMO... look it's being involved. You are the Commander in Chief, you're the Chief Executive, you are the head boss mofo in charge. You get involved to the point that you need to in order to have the plan be something you are ready to go forward with (whatever that point may be).

In re: "knowing what you are doing" ... if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't be interfering and if you don't know what you don't know you shouldn't be POTUS. That said for what it is worth (I'm sure most people here already know/have seen this and it's probably in this thread somewhere anyway): http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/#ixzz1LKNgqtJu A senior U.S. military official Monday credited President Obama for having a prominent role in pushing and shaping the plan to get Osama bin Laden. “In the final weeks and really months of this, his personal interest and direction and attention pushed the case to a new level that enabled real action,” the official told reporters. “And I think that role is quite important.” On Tuesday, White House officials began to offer more details on exactly how Obama had shaped the final assault plan. In particular, the President, they said, urged the Pentagon to revisit the number of helicopters it planned to bring into Pakistani airspace on the mission. One of those extra helicopters later played a role in the mission. The president made his concerns known in a briefing about 10 days before the assault on the bin Laden compound. According to senior aides, Obama felt that the special operations COA, or course of action, was too risky. Under the COA at that time, only two helicopters would enter Pakistani airspace, leaving little backup if something went wrong. “I don’t want you to plan for an option that doesn’t allow you to fight your way out,” the President told operational planners at the meeting, according to the notes of one participant. So the plan was revised. Ultimately, four helicopters flew into Pakistani airspace, including two refueling helicopters that carried additional personnel. In the end, the extra forces didn’t need to fight their way out of the compound, but a backup helicopter did play a key role in the operation. One of the two primary assault helicopters, an HH-60 Pave Hawk lost its lift, landed hard and had to be destroyed. The backup landed to lift its passengers to safety. “The President created the ‘fight your way out’ option,” explained an administration official. Long story short this was important, he directly supervised it, and in the end he added value not only by making sure there was accountability but even by overseeing the revision of the COA and directly adding value to the logistics of the operation.

When it comes to the big stuff and certainly when it comes to missions like the one that actually did get Osama where we send people on foot into places we shouldn't be...IMO the President should exercise direct personal oversight. And generally speaking the further removed a lot of these "modern war on terror" decisions are from that office the worse off we are as a people. This isn't traditional war I mean in a full scale invasion against another army and stuff...that isn't what I'm talking about or what we will likely deal with anytime soon (hopefully). To just say "get Osama wherever he is I delegate it" or "shoot drone missiles at terrorists wherever they are I delegate it to you military man"....it has to be more than that and it has to be significantly more than that. He has to know and he should know every time where/who/how IMO. It ultimately comes down to accountability.

Pakistan is a country divided ... it's a difficult question the degree to which the anti-America sentiment is fostered by this compared to the degree to which it actually helps the pro-US forces within the government argue "see...we don't want to end up like the Taliban or Iran (w/ economic sanctions) etc" ... either way there is no doubt that the portions of internal power in Pakistan and certainly their military are friendly to the forces we are at war with ... while drone strikes may be used to foster anti-US propaganda among the common people and cause collateral damage to them occasionally I can't say that those things outweigh the benefits we get in killing terrorists and bolstering the pro-US forces within the government by showing our strength and commitment to to destroying the bad guys...I have to say if we just left and said **** it the more reasonable forces in the Pakistan would be ousted long before the unreasonable.

Non-intelligence position? The POTUS? WTF is going on in here. He's a !@#$ing intelligence position it all flows to him and w/ good reason b/c he's the commander in chief. And military experience? That's the point...we aren't Egypt. Civilians ultimately are in control of our military. Now tactics and the means by which we accomplish our goals obviously need to draw on our military experience and such and I assure you Obama and every other President has done so...I'm not saying to micromanage the tactical plan lol...but overall don't pull back too much on this Juror you were on the right path as far as I'm concerned. He should have known, and he should be involved deeply, and he should take responsibility that we didn't go get Osama then. As the Presdient get things under control. Don't just let the structure or bureaucratic system drift away and take on a life of it's own. Be an Executive. Be a Commander. Be "the decider" lol. That's my take anyway.

Ya I mean the media sucks we all know that. Just watch Fox news and see the trash stories they push, then turn on MSNBC and see the trash they push. MSNBC will have a bunch of insane spin on stuff. Fox will literally be like "no other news station will cover this but we got your back" LMFAO as Bill O'Rielly attempts to stir up some distraction over a minor story. It's terrible...not that you can't report on whatever even if it's minor but they'll take small things and push it to the front day after day and then say "the liberal media bias is why we're the only ones doing this story"...lol...my God. And a number of other stations besides MSNBC and Fox are bad....but those are clearly the worst offenders and equally so. That said I still watch them sometimes.... Of course. I'm all for talking about the media. I mean it's 2012 and we are more connected and have more technology than ever before yet it is harder (even on the internet it seems) to really just google something and find "good solid reporting" on it as opposed to partisan stuff either way. Everything has a slant. There is not very many place you can go to just watch, think critically, and form an opinion. You always have to watch 2 or more things to see the threads both sides spin and then google like crazy and scroll way down the search list to find non-campaign/propaganda...it's terrible. I mean I am into it, I do work to find it and I still don't find it! I'm a nut and it's still hard! Imagine the normal folk...it's impossible. There was a day where most journalists tried to be neutral in their reporting. And there was a day where Republicans could give an op-ed on a Democratic President that was positive over certain issues (and vis versa). No longer. It's ALL about "the team" and all about "elections." Honestly we may have elections too frequently for modern times...may have to change that.... As for the major news corporations Dan Rather spoke about this on Bill Maher and in his book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIoI4MRaO0A And just think about when people compare law making in Washington to making sausage...**** that the media should report. And I don't care if it's boring. Show us the sausage factory day to day. And I'm not just talking CSPAN. I mean report on it, behind the scenes stuff as much as possible. FOIA and so on. Show us the boring stuff on real news stations. Let's hold people accountable for God's sake. If Washington is broken it won't fix itself. The people ultimately do have the power...but we have to empowered by information.

LOL I'm not trying to attack you Bird...I'm just saying...it is what it is whatever it is and I don't feel like those men rule the world b/c of these meetings (I could be wrong but I don't think I am) ... if they rule the world it's for other reasons

You do realize there are basically 6 corporations that run all news now right? W/ a 120 big shots it should be no wonder if they ran the world as the most eager of conspiracy theorists think that silence is bought and secured. Either way, I'm sure they talk about things "the common folk" may think unsavory but I doubt there is anything malicious or unpredictable. There will always be men of power in civilization...IF these are somehow them I assure you we are still living in a golden age relative the all of human history before us. That said...I have more faith that a significant amount of shady behind the scenes action is (while not completely exposed) assumed and known by people with brains. On a personal level we all have the ability to do what we can/want. That is all you can ask for.

LOL...well nobody here has them.