dayman

See opium...inderect tax cmerxe clause etc

They could tax smoking and drinking before the 16th amendment.

B-man I feel for you man, I don't doubt you believe this is a totally legitimate investigation and Issa and his irk are simply proceeding as they are compelled to by their conscious and sense of obligation to their office. I feel for you.

LOL what are you talking about "designed to ignore gun sales?" We KNOW what it was designed to do, it was a !@#$ing sting...it wasn't "designed" to give guns to Mexican Cartels and just let them walk away and be ignored Joe... and we know they kept losing track of the guns and couldn't execute it, and we know finally it was ended b/c of that. And any idiot can tell that there was incompetence or else they wouldn't have sold a bunch of guns to criminals. The idea this is some huge conspiracy where we don't know "what is going on" is crazy Joe C'MON MAN (in my best Chris Carter voice)

If you can't see this as what it is...you straight up cannot talk about anything with anyone except other people who 1) are stupid enough to feel they have a "team" plain and simple in politics and 2) who have your team and are enthusiastic about it. This is as transparent as it gets. It's that simple. As for the "programs" argument...it's irrelevant. It's the practice that matters...that's what the ATF had been doing period...for quite sometime...it was messing it up for a while...and finally after a huge mess up was ended under Holder. That's it. "Program" labels matter not the entire dispute over 1 program continuing and morphing or 2 programs is stupid. It was all 1 big thing they had been doing...

Yes, it is. And that's the situation...ATF down there had for some time engaged in stings selling guns and lost quite a few, culminating in a sale where they lost a ton...then the practice was ended (by HOlder himself)...now it's being investigated by everybody b/c why? Eric Holder is in contempt of Congress by vote exactly down the party line why? B/c of a search for the truth and a remedy to this issue? Take off the blinder brother.

Tom...guns don't kill people, people kill people...except that gun and thus Eric Holder killed that border patrol agent...it's the one exception the general rule.

Blaming the gun for the death of that border patrol agent is.

Every time someone is shot from now on, that incident is now directly related the chain of custody of the weapon used for its entire existence. That's something the GOP really wants....ok... And at least you guys came out and said it...you think the program was designed to fail... congratulations....you are now in looneyville. Probably some slow play/diabolical scheme whereby Obama brilliantly executes a long con that ends with him taking away your guns... Why not instantly cooperate fully with the investigation and hand over everything...copies of all interagency memoranda, disclose all internal deliberations? Have you guys not paid attention to history? You've obviously never attempted an FOIA request on your own or been involved in document production on any level. This is how it goes. EVERY TIME. This is not something unusual contrary to what conservative blogs and idiot partisan hacks in the House would have you believe. If you can't see this for what it really is you can't take off your blinders.

Do you think blah blah? Do you think bleh bleh? Do you think the moon rotates around the earth? You are utterly Fox Newsified 3rd. Holder and everybody straight up lies, there's a huge cover up, this is unlike everything that happens with countless presidents, there's some large conspiracy at the heart of this that will surely bring the end of the National Democratic Party and this is all a great and noble investigation by Issa and the House Republicans. There is nothing that will actually come of this that anyone is willing to say with a straight face on this board justifies this behavior from the House GOP...there just isn't. THE TRUTH WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH!!! Ok every time a mistake happens we turn over all internal documents of all agencies involved to politically charged congress and that's the way our government will work from now on. Not the way it has forever...but the way it now works b/c we say so. A BORDER PATROL AGENT IS DEAD!!! ...not relevant to F&F hate to break it to you. I got to go for a while but someone please explain to me what is so important. All details of this clear **** up be publicly dragged through the dirt by House GOP in the name of the truth? A nonsensical linking of this issue to Holder's family? I mean...ultimately WHY? The answer is pretty obvious to anyone with a view from 10,000 ft. If you are in the midst of a barrage of conservative media and conservative media only I can understand how you may be brainwashed but even then you should step and and say...ok...I can see this for what it is on both sides.

The point is what is the point? What is the point of all this and how does it help? The answer? No point, doesn't help, pure political grandstanding in an attempt to humiliate Holder. Yes there was a **** up, no ****. A department not wanted to make every detail of their **** up public? Wow huge surprise. Republicans want a confrontation here...plain and simple.

3rd your perception is riddled with misinformation peddled by political grand-standers in congress. Go ahead and clearly explain 1) what you actually believe could be uncovered from this investigation and 2)why this deserves so much attention beside political theater/attacks. There is no interest in actually resolving any issues here...hate to break it to you. Issa is a retard.

3rd you are the definition of an idiot. I'll say it before Tom does. Keep on fighting the good fight.

They might need a guy like Issa and his ilk to help they'll get to the bottom of this for the sake of the truth, they're not motivated by the political theater of it all in the least. It's not as if I turn on the tv and see Issa and other Republican house members grandstanding every 5 minutes...

Almost any President of note extended the power of the executive. The two most notable were Nixon and Clinton. (within modern times of course)

It would help we should probably investigate it...oh wait we are...so why are the Republican house members doing what they're doing? B/c there's some huge conspiracy where the DOJ or ATF wanted this happen? Of course not, not even you would think that. They're doing this to find anything they can that can be used as publicly as possible for political purposes.

This is about Brian Terry's family...that's what this is all about....ah I didn't realize that.

IDK that's obviously part of it but I think a lot of moms are scared shitless about kidnapping and women all over think they could be raped at any moment and people in general think they are one bad burger away from mad cow and on and on...we are paranoid...and maybe we should be IDK

Is it not safe to assume a criminal on the border killed the agent with a gun that we know was from the gun sting, one of the many guns that were lost, and they were lost b/c we !@#$ed up the gun sting?

John Adams owns you 3rd.

Just out of curiosity what do you expect to find out when this whole thing is settled?

Ah the hoopla over these document disputes...it's not unhealthy I suppose but is everyone so anti-executive? These happen with most almost every president in some capacity and w/ out a criminal indictment and judicial order it always ends the same...some sort of compromise after extensive muscle flexing...and hell even w/ a criminal indictment and court order a president may still beat it if he can assert some more specific privilege under the circumstances than Nixon did. Intergovernmental docu-battles aren't that extraordinary and it's healthy for people to want to support congress here I'm not saying it isn't it helps keep everybody in check but to get too worked up over it as if it's something extraordinary IMO just makes people seem like conspiracy theorists or on a partisan witc-hunt until proven correct. Anything is possible...but I would be shocked if this ends with anything other than a compromise and at most boring conclusions drawn from the papers that end up coming. Then again I always err on the side of the executive (no matter who it is...Bush, Obama, whoever) and some people have a different view point which is fine provided it's a philosophical one and a purely partisan one.

Easy now, don't let me get ya down just keep doing the lord's work one thread at a time and eventually I'm sure the Democrats will cease to exist. I know you aren't partisan btw you're just right about this stuff so it's all good.

3rd saving the world with one conservative blog post link at a time. Hey if you are watching MSN you may not know that Obama plays golf...you should. Thank me later.

Not that I would actually entertain the idea that fox doesn't do this regularly and spend time searching for proof that 1 + 1 = 2 ... but since the thing literally presented itself to me right when you are begging for it ... and we are hear talking nonsense anyway...here it is a very recent example from your network of choice and one that is clearly worse:'' (video at bottom) http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-skewers-fox-news-for-using-edited-obama-video-to-criticize-immigration-policy/