_Underscore_

I can agree with much of that. Thanks for elaborating. It's all good. Go Bills

I'm not saying he was in the perfect situation to win immediately. I'm saying that there were organizational structure and strategies that afforded him the time to develop long-term career skills in the same way other organizations might not. Again, my opinion, but: Organizational stability (the same staff for the first three years - and yes, including Daboll, who I do not think is "great", but was good and the stability of the same scheme for the first two or three years was advantageous for Josh's development). Management that tolerated the growing pains and didn't expect him to be the immediate savior. Investment in the O line (which went from horrendous to "sorta OK" in the Morse, Spain, Feliciano et. al.). Fans/local media that (mostly) didn't turn on him every time the team lost. I believe "the Process" - as much as others may disagree, helped Josh find his footing in a way he might not have in NYJ or Cleveland. This goes back to my original point, that coaching and the support system around a new player has a significant impact on long-term outcome.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I appreciate your opinion (perhaps bringing EJ into it was ill-advised on my part), but your statement alludes to my point. If the individual is a bust under bad coaching, and develops into a hall of famer under good coaching, then is the value of coaching not overblown? History is littered with strong arms that didn't get the second chance. I wonder how many of them would have found their way given time and opportunity. Look, I'm a huge fan of Josh for a lot of reasons, so I'm not trying to take anything away from the unicorn-like physical and psychological traits. It's true that he has both a ton of superlative physical traits and a great attitude (drive, work ethic, the wisdom to seek help with his mechanics, etc.), but my opinion is that his development here was almost a perfect storm (in a good way). Coaches, GM, OC, owner and fan base gave him an almost perfect environment to flourish. If he had a coach that encouraged "Sugar Rush Josh", I'm not as sure that a serious coach would have taken the chance rather than pick a fresh one off the tree. I believe that success is generally when everything (everybody) goes right. It only takes one week link to fail and it's failure - and early-career coaching is one of those potential weak links. Thank goodness we're finally free of that cycle. Anyway, thanks for the good dialog. Cheers

(apologies in advance for the tangent) Respectfully, I only would agree to the extent as it applies to the successes. I would argue that there are plenty of cases, QBs in particular, where a player's future failure can be attributed to the poor quality of the coaching provided to them. EJ Manual is (in my opinion anyway) a case in point. When you consider the circumstances, it was almost like there was a conspiracy against the kid: (correct me if I'm mistaken on the details). High character kid with great physical tools and a legacy relationship to Buffalo Trade-down and Drafted as a "project" intended to sit and learn under a more experienced hand (i.e. a perfect mentor - Fitz). Buddy is "punked" by TB radio station and Fitzpatrick is cut loose. Kolb is signed as the "bridge" to mentor EJ. EJ injured in preseason, but then forced into duty week 1 when Kolb suffers a career-ending mat injury (I swear, you can't make this stuff up) in August of preseason. The QB room is EJ, Thad Lewis, Tuel. A QB known to have "slow eyes" (thereby needing all the time possible to read defenses) and in need of improved mechanics - Nate Hackett puts him in a up-tempo, no-huddle, read-option-like offense. After seeing a hint of success, he gets injured in Cleveland, and has to run said offense without being allowed the "run" option. Over the next two years, Marrone and Hacket fiddly-fart around with both the offense and the QB position, eventually settling on (for the love of the Lord) Kyle Orton. The regime changes, and Rex comes in - buttsore over Mark Sanchez, and spoiling to prove to the world that he can win without a quarterback. Enter Tyrod. Bye-bye EJ. I'm not saying that EJ could have been Josh under different circumstances, but I am saying I definitely believe Josh could have been EJ under similar circumstances - which to a large degree was coaching and organizational management . I would argue that virtually any rookie QB brought in under these circumstances would fail (Steve Young in Tampa for example).

I'm not a sociologist, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn once. The seeming inconsistencies mentioned in the original post (and throughout the thread) are because left & right are not static positions, they are relative to the current social structure (which varies from place to place and over time and in context). Right Wing = Conservative = Preserving or reverting the stability of the current/traditional social structure. Left Wing = Liberal = Changing the current/traditional social structure in an attempt for social progress. So, it could be argued (for illustration sake): Stalin/Lennon's drive to establish communism over czarist Russia = Left Wing Putin's drive to re-establish Soviet Era communism = Right Wing Neither are inherently good or bad - it only depends on the "current conditions" and your perspective (does the current structure benefit you or not). Neither has title to the moral high ground and neither is immune to it's share of idiots (say, Trump and AOC in my opinion). The real danger we find ourselves in is that both sides seem to be so entrenched in their tribal positions that: - conservatives won't embrace wise changes - liberals won't embrace wise establishments. Just for grins, take a look at The Righteous Mind by Haidt. It's a good read if you don't want to hate the other camp.

I’m in the camp that wishes Edmunds made more splash plays but should be given credit for righteously doing his “1 of 11”. If it were up to me, I would keep him. Here’s my question for the rest of you though – from both “pro” and “con” camps… Given: For the past four or five years, the Bills have been playing smart, strong defense. and: The defense is more scheme-based than relying on freak talent. and: Edmunds calls the plays for said defense. then: Might it not be true that his value to the coaches/organization might be (at least partially) from the neck up? I'm not the most knowledgeable football guy, but it seems to me that the strength of the defense is that it rarely makes egregious mental errors. A "good" (if unspectacular) player who makes sure everyone else is in a position to succeed is worth more than a stat-line. So here's my question: how much impact does the "quarterback of the defense" make? (not a loaded question, I'm seriously asking)

I normally just lurk, so forgive my interruption… My son is now 27, and completely non-verbal. The way I describe it to people is being a caregiver to the world’s largest (~300lb, 6’-1”) overtired two-year old. Although there is no malice, there is a lot of violence (mostly self-injurious, but not exclusively) and destruction of property. I’d be happy to expand on our story if there is any interest but… My point in interjecting is to say that the wife and I often feel blessed that he lacks the mentally capacity to have awareness of the level of his disability – and sincerely feel for the parents of higher-functioning autistic kids. They have the tougher road. Because my son is low functioning, we can provide him with happiness (in his own fashion). There is some solace in that we can at least do this. We know a number (!) of suicides in higher functioning autistic people. There is a social expectation that a high-functioning person can “focus” their way to “normal” (whatever “normal” means). It’s like trying to “focus” their way out of color-blindness – and it not only tends to fail, but creates a lot of unhappiness along the way. Thank you to the OP for posting this very important topic. Diagnosis is key, but it’s just the beginning. If anyone out there is on the spectrum or has a child that is – please avail yourself of whatever help/support you can get through family and support services. It’s a long race. Get intervention as early as possible and be active in demanding all the social support you can get.

SDS: I’m a large fan of the site. I post (very) rarely but read every day and have for years. By and large you and your team are doing a great job. Here are a few thoughts for what it’s worth: #2. Politics – 5 or higher: None of your categories have the tendency to poison the entire community like this one. Nothing is gained by discussing politics here – no minds are changed, nothing is learned, and it interferes with the primary purpose (and the fun) of the site. There are other places for politics for those who want to partake (as well as PPP) – it should not be here. Abusive/Inappropriate behavior seems to already be reasonably moderated I do enjoy that this is kept a little more civil and cultured than other team forums (good Lord, look at the Jets forum sometime. Yikes!). Within reason, this is more of a "give a warning or two and if it's persistent, then take action" thing. #4. Should points expire? Points should expire at the pro bowl. If you make a fool of yourself in the offseason, you risk posting through the season and into the playoffs. As the year goes on, the malcontents become fewer and farther in between. One year might sound long to some, but it should not be that hard for adults to respect the rules so that the moderators don't need to be full time babysitters (and subsequently become bitter about something for which they volunteer). #5. Should there be an appeals process? On bans only. Your mods are the judges. You are the appeals court. Have the offender send a paragraph or two (if they care to). Have your mod send a paragraph or two (if they care to). Then you be the judge. Thanks for asking, and thanks again to you and your moderators for a great site.

Great discussion. Here's why I don't think they'll drop off a cliff despite eroding talent: 1.) They do not turn the ball over 2.) They do not commit penalties I looked at this briefly, (more knowledgeable posters can check), but every year, the Cheats finish top tier in both those categories. These are team characteristics that reflects coaching and organizational stability. Despite decades of turnover, this has been constant for N.E. under the hoodie and I don’t expect to change in the upcoming year. I think a team with average talent who does these two things consistently wins at least 6 games a year – games against dumpster fires are a lock. Add a top-10 defense, and you’re in enough games to pull out 2 to 4 more (depending on how the ball bounces). Subsequently, I see the Cheats being an 8 – 10 win team this year. The real question is whether the Bills can eliminate the unforced errors (drops, fumbles, penalties, and bone-headed plays) that cost them the division and the WC game last year. The Bills have a great coach and are stock full of ascending young talent. If they can (and I think they will), the division should be a lock. Great thread.

Notwithstanding the taxes, Western New York is really a much nicer area than it gets credit for being. You say you’d like to be near water. Although neither is the Pacific, Lakes Erie and Ontario certainly qualify provided your goal isn’t surfing. The people are friendly, and Buffalo is a small enough city that you could easily go from downtown, to the suburbs, to the complete sticks in under an hour -- so you can really pick where you want to set up house. Traffic is a non-factor as compared to the other, bigger cities you might consider. The cost of living is (relatively) low, and the NYS education system is very good (provided you’re in the suburbs and not the city itself). The nightlife isn’t Manhattan, but there are places to go and things to do. The real reason I’m writing is to dispel what you might think about the weather in Buffalo – the national media really creates quite a bad impression, and it’s a false one. Buffalo is on the east side of the great lakes, so the prevailing winds are normalized as they cross Lake Erie. The upshot of this is that the Buffalo Area has MODERATE/MILD summers of 70s and 80s with occasional (low) 90s. The winters are in fact MILD because lake affects the wind temperature making it WARMER and WETTER (hence the snow). This makes Buffalo significantly warmer in winter than cities on the west side of the great lakes (Chicago, Detroit, etc.). It is not Siberia by any stretch. There is the occasional blizzard, but the people know how to deal with them (i.e. we can all drive in the snow, and the towns are good at plowing the roads clear) and they are (at least in my opinion) easier to cope with than Hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes, or some of the options in other areas. Western New York has four good seasons. Summers for hanging at the lakeside or for the kids to swim and play outside without debilitating heat. Vibrant fall foliage for apple picking and tailgating. Fluffy white winters for skiing or snowmobiling. Then watching the snow melt and the greenery re-bloom, and doing it all over again. I guess everybody has a loyalty to their hometown, and I’m no different. Don’t sleep on Western New York – it’s a really nice place.

Forget about the hit on Tre White for a minute. If fact, forget about football for a minute. Buffalo is a special place despite taking abuse from the rest of the country. A special thing about people from Buffalo, or people of Buffalo (for you that are natives only at heart) is that we wear the pride of our home on our sleeve for life. Tim Russert, Chris Berman, and the people who raised about half a million dollars for the Andy Dalton Foundation – this is their “home town”. Hell, this is Shelby Waddle’s “home town”. Nobody expects him to be a Bills fan when playing for another team, but he never carried any loyalty to his home during his career (like Moose Johnson did for example), why try to "buy" it now? Screw him. Gronkowski should go back to Boston and stay there.

Nice to see one of you guys (who is NOT an idiot) remember Pink Floyd -- a ton of quality work from them. Limited to composers of Pop/Rock, you might want to consider Peter Gabriel too (both with and without Genesis). Maybe not your cup of tea, but certainly a sizable catalog of high quality work as a composer.

Maybe it would not have made a difference, but I think the circumstances scuttled EJ Manual more than any rookie quarterback I can recall. Please correct me if I am incorrect in some of the details. EJ had physical gifts, but needed help above the neck. EJ’s weak suit, reading defenses and making fast decisions, was Fitzs’s strong suit. What’s more, Fitz had all the personal characteristics to make a good mentor. Then, presumably with the plan to select EJ but before the actual draft, our senile GM gets punk’d by DJs in Tampa, and to save face, the planned mentor and bridge QB is unceremonially cut. Kolb is signed to start while they develop EJ, and he gets taken out by a mat (seriously, who could even write this stuff?). EJ gets hurt and misses some of the preseason, but just makes it healthy to get stuffed into the lineup by opening day. So, a QB who was drafted as a project becomes a starter on day one. The first-time OC decides that his developmental, slow-eyed rookie should start in an up-tempo, no huddle, option offense (!?!?). An offense that is based on a QB making fast decisions at the line of scrimmage AND no opportunity to work it out in the huddle. Awesome. After a few weeks of mixed results (including some successful scrambling), EJ gets hurt in Cleveland. When he gets back, it appears (at least to me) that the Napoleonic coach instructs him NOT TO RUN, but keeps playing the QB option offense. This abominations of an offense carries over into the next year, where half-way through the coaching staff very visibly and publically turns their back on the kid and the ball is taken from his hands. By the end of the season, the former first round pick is saying "If I ever get back in, I'm just going to rip it". At this point, it seems to me that it wasn't the opponents that were in EJ's head, but his own coaches. Then, the staff turns over, and the team is taken over by a buffoon who is so butt-sore over Sanchez that he says “Screw-em!!! I’ll design an offense that doesn’t NEED a quarterback who can throw the ball!!!” Thus, the EJ Manual development project ends with an offense that is the (it makes me feel dirty even saying this) “brain-child” of Rex Ryan and “the QB who shall remain nameless”. I’m not saying that EJ was going to be the second coming of anyone special, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that his failure was facilitated in a great degree by some monumental pinheadery by others in the organization. Every time I read someone say that rookie's can't learn from the bench, I think of EJ. Had they kept Fitz and let EJ work on his footwork and watch tape for a year, it might have been different.

You know what? Maybe this response is over the top, but here it is anyway… No matter what kind of tough sledding we see this year, I choose to be completely fired up about the team in a way that I have not been for a long, long time. It seems like the grown-ups are in charge again in the front office. After a decades-long parade of some of the most thundering pin-headery imaginable, with players and coaches I didn’t want to cheer for, it’s morning in Buffalo again. I think Kim (in particular) sets a great tone for the organization, seems to run a tight ship, and is a great representative of the community and the franchise. Beane (as it has been expressed elsewhere) is a witch. Not every transaction will work out, but the ratio of upside to cost is almost always better than average (in my entirely subjective opinion). For example, if Allen works out, there is no limit to how good he can be – but we were able to draft him without mortgaging the future. A lot of his moves are that way – high upside to cost ratio. If Beane hits, then the team is set for long term. If he misses, it’s a recoverable loss moving forward. This seems really smart to me. Over time, I think this will be successful in building something special. The attitude that McD is setting makes complete sense. Starting with individuals that have successful habits (like work ethic), and getting them to “buy into” a collective process through positive reinforcement, mentoring, and peer accountability – this is just good management. We may finally have an heir and a spare in the quarterback room. The first dozen posts from training camp described our rookie linebacker saying “Wow, this kid looks like the predator!” (Seriously, it was uncanny). We have a new DT that pre-draft analysts were referring to as a “Kyle Williams type” backing up Kyle Williams. We have a sophomore CB that we traded DOWN to get who should have been ROTY. We have 10 (?) draft picks next year to further the rebuild, and they’ll be in great cap position at the end of this year. The longest playoff drought in sports is someone else’s (lookin’ at you Seattle Mariners!) Best of all, it looks like a lot of these young people really get and appreciate what this fan base and community is about. I choose to DIG Tre White dancing in shin-deep snow, Josh Allen caring about our weird, regional chicken-wing/blue cheese pride, and Phillips keeping in touch with “Pancho Billa”. I’m proud of being a fan of the Bills; even if it means cheering for a team with less success than others this year but more heart . Something feels different lately in the aura around the club – like some of the new kids are “our guys” – in the same way that Fred Jackson was “our guy” or the way Talley was “our guy”. I think the future is bright, even if this year might not be yet. Even if it’s a tough year (and it may be), I TRUST THE PROCESS. Thanks for listening, I needed to say that. PS: The Leroy Jenkins reference made me actually laugh out loud – good one! Go Bills.

True, but you know what? I don't agree with them exactly (I'd sit JA for a month or so to develop), but I can dig the "irrational exuberance gang", and prefer it to the "we're doomed cadre". This board is a lot nicer place lately with a little optimism. Arguments between "he's ready now" and "he'll be ready soon" are a breath of fresh air after the last few years!