hondo in seattle

I agree with all of this. To clarify, I meant 'relevant' in terms of championship conversations. The Browns haven't been a championship contender much since the 1950s, and never again a champion. But if I had to pick the GOAT, it wouldn't be Brady. It would be between Jim Brown and OJ. Both were RBs back when offenses revolved around the RB and the best athletes became backs. And they were both heads and shoulders better than their peers. If I took off my Bills cap, the pick would be Brown. Brady was a great QB. But how much was he better than his peers: Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Farve, Roethlisberger, Warner, Luck, Stafford, Rivers, and so on? At the end of any regular season, you could make a strong argument that Brady wasn't the best QB that given year. Brown was the best RB every year he suited up and everyone knew it and there was no rational debate about it. Brady led the league in passing yards 4 times in his 23-year career. Impressive. Brown led the league in rushing yards 8 times in his 9-year career. The one year he didn't, he was hurt. Brown was relevant. The Browns were not (at least not how I use the term). That makes sense. Though if I was calculating win percentage for a QB, I'd only count games started. In any case, Lamonica was a winner - and it would have been better if he had won all those games for us. The problem, of course, is that we didn't have the supporting cast.

Here's the top three from Wikipedia... Something is wrong with StatMuse. It says Lamonica played 137 games. Pro Football Referense says he started only 88 games. Maybe StatMuse is counting the losses with the Bills where the Snake sat helplessly on the bench?

Neither did I until I looked up the list. What sucks about the list is that two of the winningest QBs in history are guys who have haunted the Bills: Brady and Mahomes. The Bills mafia would be a much happier place if those two had been in the NFC. And we had one of the winningest QBs in history on our roster but hardly played him before we traded him a way for Art Powell and a bag of peanuts.

I think Alpha's probably right and the biggest surprises have already happened. But if I had to guess, I'd say Mitch Trubisky. Somewhere in the NFL, a decent QB will be a surprise cut and we'll sign the guy to be Josh's backup.

I'm old but not old enough to remember him playing. But when I was a Browns fan, I read up on Browns history. With Otto Graham as their on-field captain, the Browns dominated the old All-American Football Conference (AAFC) in the late 1940s and won the championship all four years of the AAFC's tenure. Cleveland's run included the 1948 championship game when the Browns destroyed an earlier version of the Buffalo Bills by a score of 49-7. Their critics complained that the Browns were the best team in an inferior league and would crumble against NFL competition. Well, about that... the Browns joined the NFL in 1950, won the championship that year, and Graham was named the league's MVP. The Browns earned the right to play in the NFL Championship game 6 consecutive years after joining the NFL, winning 3 of them. They've had a bit of success in the 1960's with Jim Brown, in the 70's with the Kardiac Kids, in the 80's with Bernie... but have mostly been irrelevant since Otto's days.

Weirdly, Sipe has attained something Josh hasn't: an MVP award. Sipe was fun to watch during the short-lived Kardiac Kids era. With Sipe and their playmakers, the Browns were never out of a game. Eleven 4th quarter (or OT) game-winning drives in two years.

The best has to be Otto Graham, no? If I'm not mistaken, he's the only Browns QB in the HOF. Winningest QBs in NFL history: Graham... .814 Lamonica... .801 Mahomes... .771 Brady... .754 Jackson... .753 The Browns are kind of like the Bills - a bunch of great RBs but not many great QBs. But Bernie had his moments.

I was both a Browns and Bernie fan back in the day. Hated Belichick for cutting him. Wish Kosar the best.

I rarely watch college ball - not even bowl games. I mostly count on you guys to inform me about draft prospects. As a 65 year old guy, this is what I do on Saturdays: I meditate at 6 am. Then I gear up the husky and head out to the mountains for a 10-18 mile hike/trail run, typically with 2,000+ feet of elevation gain. Then I come home to rest, read, and write. Sometimes my wife and I go out to dinner at a restaurant we've never been to before, maybe even sample a cuisine we've never sampled before - most recently, Uyghur. Even the mafia has lives outside of football.

Growing up in Cheektowaga, the first game I ever saw on TV was not a Bills game, but a Browns game - back in the days of Leroy Kelly, Bill Nelson, and Paul Warfield. At the tender age of 9, I was a dual Browns-Bills fan and that lasted until 1995 when the treacherous snake, Art Modell, moved the Browns to Baltimore and called them the Ravens. I never really connected with the reconstituted Browns when they were formed 3 or 4 years later.

I played both "flanker" and "split end" in high school. On Sundays, I rooted for my favorite "halfback" - OJ. In my dad's time, there were other positions we don't hear much about anymore: "safety man," "wingback," "setback," "monster back"... Nowadays, we have wills and sams, h-backs and nickel backs, X's and Z's, slot corners and box safeties. Nose guards are now called nose tackles. "Defensive halfbacks" later became "cornerbacks" and are mostly called "corners" now. "Wedge busters" were made extinct by rule changes. It's funny how the positional names morph over time. When I think about "Edge," I think either about a DE or OLB who specialized in rushing the passer.

Moon had an arm! Threw for 500+ yards once running Houston's Run-and-Shoot offense. Undrafted out of UW but his pro career earned him recognition in both the CFL and NFL HOF.

As a former Browns fan, I remember him well and loved to watch him play. Sort of like CJ Spiller, if given space he was a dynamic scatback - though his stats don't jump off the page. He was an excellent receiver out of the backfield. And an exciting return man who held the NFL record for kick return yards for a while. Never attained 1,000 yards in a season as a RB but did as both a KR and receiver.

I guess somebody had to.

Over. I'm not excited by this trio and not confident in their production. I don't think any of them will hit double-digits. But I think/hope/pray that combined they'll produce more than 20 sacks - though I don't think it'll be much more.

A few names come to mind... I love watching RBs in action, so Jim Brown is a favorite. His off-the-field behavior wasn't always commendable, but on the field he was a force of nature. From my humble vantage point, Brown and Simpson were the two greatest running backs of all time. Drew Brees. I'm a Purdue alum so I followed Brees since college. And in the pros, he did what you want a QB to do: sling the ball. He threw for over 5,000 yards four times and more than 40 TDs twice. If not for Tom Brady and his rings, Brees with 80,000 career yards would be in the conversation for greatest QB of all time. Earl Campbell. This guy was a human battering ram. I loved the way he sacrificed his body for his team. For younger fans, think of King Henry - only tougher & better. Paul Warfield. When I was young, I fancied myself a wide receiver, and I was a Browns fan even before I was a Bills fan, so Warfield was my first football idol. He was such a graceful, athletic receiver who had been an all-conference RB in the Big Ten. Diggs averaged 11.1 per catch last year. Warfield was a deep threat who averaged 20+ yards/catch for seven consecutive seasons playing on two different teams. It didn't matter who was throwing him the ball; he was going to get the ball downfield.

Alpha, I personally didn't go bonkers. In fact, I didn't publicly say a thing. But I did silently think you were a bonkers homer optimist who saw an upside that wasn't there. Maybe it's too early for a mea culpa but I'm cautiously hopeful that you were right all along.

Agreed. Up to the midpoint of last season, I viewed Shakir as a jag. Nothing special. Borderline starter. Now I'm reassessing. He looked like a good starter during the second half of the season. Then again, I thought Gabe was a jag until that monster game against the Chiefs in the playoffs. I reassessed after that performance and shouldn't have. But Gabe outproduced Diggs in individual games here and there. Shakir, on the other hand, outproduced Diggs for a huge continuous chunk of the season so I'm hopeful he can continue his upwards trajectory. Last 10 Bills games: Receiving yards: Khalil Shakir (462) Stefon Diggs (422) Targets: Shakir (37) Diggs (80)

This is my worry. Well, one of my worries. My bigger worry is if Brady knows how to scheme guys open. If he does, I think Shakir's efficiency and production do scale up nicely.

And when he shines, he's better than all of them. Let's hope a healthy arm, better biomechanics, and a Joe Brady-designed scheme can improve the shine-to-struggle ratio.

I agree. Despite allowing the fewest sacks in the NFL this past season, the OL was not elite. I think if an analytics guy wants to devise a new passer rating system, they need to factor in the ability to avoid sacks and complete passes while under pressure. It's easy to perform well as a QB if you're in a clean pocket most of the time and simply take the sack when you're not. That's not Josh Allen. While the picks last season were a legit cause for concern, I think some of Josh's critics overemphasized the turnovers while underappreciating the bad plays that didn't happen when Josh avoided a sack.

Interesting comparison. Looking at the '17 roster now, I don't know how McD got that motlely crew into the playoffs. There is so much uncertainty in every offseason but this one more than most. At this point in the offseason, speculating about the roster is a Rorschak Test. I learn more about the person sharing their opinion than about the players. I can see, for example, that Shaw is an open-minded optimist while FireChans is a doomsday curmodgeon. There's a saying in India, "When a pick-pocket walks down the street, all he sees is pockets." Likewise, when a hungry man in America drives down a street, all he sees is restaurants. When a horny man drives down a street, all he sees is... well, never mind. The optimists amongst us keep finding reasons to be optimistic. The pessimist mafiosas keep finding reasons to grumble. I'm a registered Independent but lean optimist. I can easily find reasons why this year's receiving corps, OL, LBs, etc will be good. But, in the end, I really have no freaking idea. And as smart as all of us are, I think there's going to be some humble pie to eat by season's end. Each year gives us surprises and this football season will be very interesting.

He was 12 of 13 last year from 30-39. He was 4 of 6 from 40-49 yards. Not great. In the post-season he was 1 of 3 from 40-49. That hurt.

I don't agree with the OP but JerseyBills does have a right to his opinion and shouldn't be beat up for it. The fact that it's an optimistic, pro-Bills opinion only strengthens that right - at least in my mafia mind. And JB could be right. There is uncertainty in the WR room. Some guys may be more productive and add more value than we expect. Shakir - was more productive than Diggs over the second half of the season. Maybe he's primed for a breakout season. Claypool - once looked like an up-and-coming starting calibre wideout. Maybe this is the year he puts it all together. Samuel - never had a good QB throwing to him. Maybe this year he showcases his talent & versatility like never before. Coleman - never played in the NFL before. Maybe Beane is right and this guy turns out to be a productive beast. MVS - has speed that maybe allows Josh to make max use of his arm strength and puts fear into defenses, opening zones underneath. Kincaid, Knox, and Cook - are all also legit targets that maybe take some heat off the WR group. Lots of maybe's here but hope is the essence of fandom.

I agree, philosophically. My daughter just came back from a trip to Europe and I gave her crap for eating McDonalds one day. When in Europe: do European things, eat European food. And mostly, she did. But seeing a Bills game in London would be an exception for me. It seems like it'd be a great experience to see the Bills play overseas. I hope Virgil has an awesome time!