hondo in seattle

Huh? We're going to trade a young QB who just might some day be good for an older QB with poor leadership skills who has proven he will never be good?

There might be something to this. Jerry must like being successful after 3 years of being labeled a bust. Sometimes players thrive in one environment and wither in another. For Jerry, that risk might change the calculus of the contract negotiations a little.

I just want to thank Bandit for starting this thread and join the chorus singing that this is TBD at it's very best. There's too much uneducated opinion and too many ad hominem attacks on internet boards for my taste. This thread, however, has educated me.

The idea that business comes before football isn't new. When Polian and Littman weren't getting along, who did Ralph fire?

While it's true that when an offense works well, the playmakers get the lion's share of the credit. But the corollary is not true that when an offense struggles, the OL gets all the blame. Usually the QB get's the greatest share of the criticism. The OC will get his share, too. Our OL is getting blamed because they deserve it. But EJ, Orton, Freddy, CJ, Hackett and the WRs have all been getting blamed this year too. Personally, I don't see the OL receiving an unfair share. And the way the OL should respond to the blame is by opening holes for our backs and keeping defenders off our QB.

Some really good discussions here but I don't understand why anyone is making assumptions about "propaganda" or "scapegoats." Obviously, every business is conscious of its reputation. The NFL is no different. What the public is told is always PR. That's not to say it's dishonest. In many cases, it's simply an edited version of the truth. And that's all I expect from Whaley and Marrone - a redacted version of reality. But PR doesn't preclude accountability. I'm sure Whaley holds Marrone accountable in ways we cannot see just like Marrone holds his coaches accountable and those coaches hold their players accountable. Whether they're holding the right people accountable in the right ways remains to be seen. Except it will mostly remain unseen. I really don't see any evidence that Marrone will create a scapegoat and I never heard him make Ike Hilliard into a scapegoat for all the problems we had last year. Leaders who assign their failures to scapegoats quickly lose their credibility and I hope Marrone doesn't play that game. My sense, based solely on the comments that get reported in the media, is that the players actually respect Marrone. Like the OP, though, I really do hope Marrone takes dramatic action to fix this offense. Clearly Marrone/Hackett have failed to create a really efficient passing attack (as the OP asserts) or an effective running attack. We're poor at sustaining drives, poor in the Red Zone, poor in general.

Orton is inconsistent with ball placement and certainly lacks mobility. But what if Adam Gase - the Broncos OC - was our OC? What if we had good guards? What if we had a potent running game? By most statistical measures, Orton is average, not actually terrible. If we fixed our other problems, Orton's productivity would be better.

I voted to stick with what we have and upgrade the OL because I don't think we can realistically hope for a FA QB much better than Orton. If we could land Brees, great, but it's not going to happen. I think we should draft a project QB in the middle rounds next year. I think we should draft a QB every year until we find one we can believe in. Hackett and others say that EJ has progressed a lot as Orton's understudy. Let's hope so. But let's not bet on it.

My bad. I thought he had overcome his gambling addiction by then. But he was still happy - so I still think Biscuit's assertion was false.

We all know why you are questioning CJ's vision. Yet Gailey got over 1,000 yards at 6 yards per carry from Spiller. If Gailey was smart enough to figure out how to use Spiller correctly, why aren't Marrone and Hackett? But since Marrone and Hackett probably won't be any smarter next year than this, maybe it is best to cut Spiller loose.

Victor Crenshaw at 121 Rosedale Lane in Thornton, Colorado, was very sad then Orton left. Btw, I think argument by hyperbole to be extremely persuasive.

If a HC can hire a good ST coach, good DC and good OC - and his GM gives him some on-field talent to work with - life is great. Remembering DJ, he had a good DC and a good ST coach. If he had just found an OC, he might still be the HC today. Marrone has a good DC. Crossman's ST units are better this year though I'm still reluctant to call him a good ST coach. OC is still a problem which is worrisome because while Hackett is the de jure OC, I think Marrone is the de facto OC. Nonetheless, I admit that these Bills have fight in them and are the best to wear the Bills colors in years.

Merrone, John... Here's the mug shot... Accused of multiple felonies.... Not sure why he'd be a HC of the Year candidate.... I'm guessing Bruce Arians has a better chance.

Both Dixon and CJ are averaging 4.2 yard per carry. FJ is at 3.9. Brown's "explosion" and "hard running" have earned him 3.5 ypc. None of the backs are gobbling up yards in big chunk behind this line running Hackett's plays.

I'd be super excited with a 10-6 record even if it doesn't get us into the playoffs. 9-7 is just a game above .500. But a 10-6 is clearly the record of a good team. 10-6 would be a great confidence booster for next year and could help attract FAs. Is it worse to go 10-6 and miss the playoffs? Or go 10-6, make the playoffs, but lose in the first round?

More Peter King... TEN THINGS I THINK I THINK 1. I think this is what I liked about Week 15: a. Most everything about Buffalo’s defense.

Well, this season hasn't been devoid of disappointment. But we ought to thank Doug2 for making things interesting. It's the middle of December and the Bills still have a chance to make the playoffs. If we win next week, and we should, I'll be glued to the TV the final week of regular season. Usually I avoid the TV that week because all the playoff mania just makes me feel low about another Bills season ending without a glimmer of hope.

Am I missing something? Woods hit him in the chest while the play was live. I hate dirty play but that doesn't seem dirty to me. Looks like good football.

I'll overstate it for the sake of argument: THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON! Hackett isn't some autonomous OC who's independently doing his own thing. He's Marrone's protege. He's the guy Marrone chose to install Marrone's offense and execute Marrone's offensive ideas.

Who are you going to draft that can start right away? I think Orton's our guy for at least another year.

Mike Florio is a former lawyer so you would think he knows what the NFL can - and can't - do. Then again, isn't Florio the guy who reported that Terry Bradshaw died in a car accident several years ago?

I agree with the San-O's assessment of OC, OG and QB being our biggest needs. I just don't know how much will get resolved in the off season. I am pretty sure Whaley will either draft a guard or sign a FA guard - or both. QB is a bit of a dilemma since this isn't a good draft for QBs and I don't think a FA QB better than Orton will become available. Maybe we'll roll the dice with a later round draft pick as a developmental project OC is a tough one too because for Marrone to fire Hackett is like Marrone firing himself. Hackett is Marrone's protege and he's running Marrone's offensive system. (It's curious that the worst unit of the team is the unit run by the HC). If Hackett was fired (which I would find surprising), Marrone would probably then have to hire someone who probably wants more authority and autonomy than Marrone gave Hackett - someone with the freedom to install his own system and ideas.

Another Kyle Orton thread?

Jim Plunkett wasn't a starter. It had been proven for 8 years. Then he led the Raiders to a Super Bowl victory. Some guys get better with age. Some guys finally shine when they get in a system that makes use of their talents and covers up their shortcomings. I don't know if Orton is one of those guys. But right now he's 17th in passer efficiency rating (amongst QBs with at least 100 attempts). At 262 ypg, his productivity is 14th. He's productivity and efficiency statistics are profoundly average for a NFL starter. Orton is what a typical NFL starter looks like. And his stats are earned despite working for an OC who going through an on-the-job learning program. And despite a deficient OL that can't open up running lanes. Like anyone, I would prefer Payton Manning to be the QB of the team. Or I'd love for Whaley to find the 'next Jim Kelly." But Orton isn't bad. He's merely mediocre. Maybe next year with better guards and a smarter OC, he'll be better than mediocre. I don't know how anyone can know. To quote Socrates, "The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing."

We need 10 more sacks in the last 4 games to beat the Bills all-time sack record of 57 set last year. But let's not forget the 1964 season. Unofficially, we had 50 sacks during that championship season. Teams played only 14 games back then and passed a lot less. So I'd guess the sacks/pass attempt ratio was actually higher in 1964.