hondo in seattle

His credibility with who? With you? I don't think the players will lose faith in the Pegulas if they give Whaley and Marrone more than 2 years to turn the team around. I don't think fellow owners will blink an eye. A few fans might be pissed - but not pissed enough to damage revenues. No one remembers what Ralph did back in 1960. No mistakes he made back then permanently ruined his credibility. Terry has built up a solid reputation in business over the course of decades. He saved the Bills, keeping them in Buffalo. He's got tons of credibility and retaining a coach another year won't change that. And, personally, I'm not convinced that Whaley and Marrone don't deserve another year. Though if I was Terry, I'd ask them both some hard questions about their plans for 2015, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

A top 3 defense in the NFL.

What's an "authentic" head coach? Apparently the Browns didn't think Belicheck was an "authentic" head coach and was instead just a coordinator who, as per the Peter Principle, was promoted to the level of his incompetence. Our friends in Boston might have a different opinion. Apparently neither the Pats nor the Jets considered Pete Carroll an "authentic" head coach. Here in Seattle, fans would disagree. Sometimes coaches need time to grow into their roles and fully implement their systems. John Wooden, to offer up a b-ball example, needed 16 years to perfect his approach to coaching before winning his first national championship. But then he won 10 championships in 12 years. Sometimes coaches need better talent suiting up. Oftentimes, owners, GMs and fans are too impatient with their HCs.

Actually Orton gets the ball out in 2.32 seconds (if memory serves), third fastest of qualifiers in the NFL. With or without Urbik, this OL has been awful. Maybe less awful with him, but still horrid.

Polian will come here in what capacity? Bringing back Levy didn't bring back the glory of those 90s Bills. I'm not sure bringing back Polian will either. Polian's old, Whaley's young. I don't see Polian as the long term leader of the franchise. If Polian comes in as a special adviser to the Pegulas, it could potentially be a good thing. (And potentially disruptive). I'm not confident that Polian coming to replace Whaley would be good for the Bills.

DJ was an OC short of having a good coaching staff. Chan was a DC short. Neither had a lot of player talent and may have won with more time and a better FO. What makes Marrone interesting is that his biggest struggles are in his area of expertise.

Estro makes a good point. But it's an old point wrapped in different statistics. Even the casual fan knows the offense sucks. You don't need any statistics to see that. I really don't think the Pegulas need to read this. I'd be shocked if their analysis isn't far, far more detailed than what Estro provided us. But it is kind of interesting to see 2011 and 2012 and compare them to 2013-2014.

A few thoughts about this article and the OL... When Rob Johnson was our QB, we all expected sacks because he held onto the ball too long. But Orton is getting rid of the ball in 2.32 seconds - third fastest in the NFL. And yet he's still hurried, hit or sacked on 38.2% of his dropbacks - 6th highest in the NFL. As quickly as Orton is getting the ball out, it's still not quick enough. Our OL is simply porous. This may explain why Orton misses wide open receivers. He's trying to get rid of the ball as fast as he can to avoid the hurry/hit/sack. Earlier this year the OL apologists were blaming the lack of run productions on the backs. Specifically, they were saying that the OL is opening holes but CJ isn't hitting him due to his supposed lack of peripheral vision. However, neither Freddy nor Bryce nor Boobie have found room to run this year either. The OL just doesn't create running lanes. Someone suggested that we fans all act like we have Ph.Ds in OL play. I admit I don't know the finer points of life in the trenches. But after 40 years of watching football, I do know that QBs getting sacked and RBs running into a wall of defenders are bad things. We've seen a lot of bad things this year. In the run game, as in the pass game, the play of this line is indefensible. The question remains how much you can blame the coaches - from Pat Morris on up - for the poor play of the OL? It's hard as a fan to really answer this question. But when you see our offensive linemen lose one-on-one battles again and again you know that individual talent is a huge part of the problem. So I personally don't know how good an OC Hackett can be, or how good a QB Orton can be, for the Bills. This line is historically bad which makes it hard to make a fair evaluation of the QB or OC.

While I'm not saying Orton is good, the fact is that he's getting the balls out of his hands faster than most other QBs in the NFL. My guess it's because he has no confidence in the offensive line. (Orton's snap to attempt time is 2.32 seconds, third fastest of 27 qualifiers).

This is an interesting point. When Marrone was named the HC of the Bills, I remember hearing good things from NO about the work Marrone did with the OL. I thought it was curious at the time because Marrone was the OC for the Saints and I didn't note anyone praising his OC skills with Sean Payton running the show. It seemed that as OC, Marrone was really a glorified OL coach but at least he was good at that. Yet our OL sucks and players seem to be regressing.

Thanks for the link. This was a great article with some good insight on how the OL play impacted the offense and play calling. The old truism, "Games are won and lost in the trenches" is still valid. We excelled in the D trenches with 3 of 4 players making the Pro Bowl. We were horrid in the offensive trenches with just two players with above-average grades and others near the worst at their position.

Food for thought from http://billsmafia.co...-nfl-offseason/ The Bills’ offensive line has surrendered 37 sacks, 82 QB Hits and 113 pressures. In simpler terms, Kyle Orton is getting hurried, hit or sacked on 38.2% of his dropbacks, the sixth highest rate among 27 qualifying quarterbacks… It’s tough to get passes off when a quarterback’s own lineman is sitting in his lap the instant the ball is snapped. So, Hackett relied on operating out of the shotgun. Move Orton a few yards back, create space between himself and the defenders in hopes of giving an extra split second to make a play. That’s why 449 of the Bills’ 556 dropbacks were out of a shotgun formation. But sometimes even that isn’t enough, as Orton’s snap-to-sack time of 3.14 seconds was the fourth fastest time at his position. Another way to limit an opponents’ pass rush is to get the ball out quickly, using screens, slants and quick, high-percentage short throws to move down the field. That’s why Orton’s average time from snap to attempt was 2.32 seconds, the third quickest time among 27 qualifying quarterbacks.

That's the big challenge. We might just have to keep Orton because the alternatives may be even weaker. Hopefully, we'll build a better team around him.

I'm in the pissed category. To make next year different, here's my Christmas List.... Three new coaches (OC/QB/OL), two new offensive guards, and one new QB.

When we traded Lynch, I assumed the Bills knew something I didn't. On the surface, it was a terrible trade. But if Lynch, for example, was a drug abuser on the verge of a suspension, the trade would make sense. Living in Seattle, I can tell you that the fans here feel they stole Lynch in that trade and they're overjoyed to have him. He's kept his nose mostly clean since he's been here. He's described by the Hawk players as a good teammate. I'm not sure what drove the Bills to rid themselves of Lynch but I think hindsight says it was a bad move, whatever you may think of Lynch as a person.

Chan was bereft of player talent but did a credible job with the little he had - at least on the offensive side of the ball. Fitz, CJ, Stevie all enjoyed the best years of the careers under Chan.

True, but at least he was unpredictable.

Yep. And I was encouraged. After yesterday's performance, I'm falling off the Orton bus.

For a while, Chan made Fitz look like a capable NFL QB. He made Spiller look like a Pro Bowl RB. He made Stevie look like a Pro Bowl WR. He made a weak OL look good. Good coaches get the best out of their people. Marrone/Hackett don't do that. Gailey did. So, yes, I'd bring him back as OC. Oops, just noticed C Biscuit making almost the very same point...

The last time I was in Buffalo I saw a sweatshirt reading "Just one before I die" and instantly bought it as it perfectly captured my feelings on this subject. I wore that shirt yesterday and wanted to burn it by the end of the game. I'm 55. With 32 teams in the NFL, the probability is the Bills will win one SB by the time I'm 87 (about the average life expectancy for a male in the US). But then probability says the Bills should have won a SB by now. They have not. And probability says the Bills should have won about half their games since their inception. They have not. The Bills have a tendency to confound probability in an unhappy way. Intellectually when you reflect on the careers of guys like Bill Belicheck (who was fired by the Browns), you have to realize that coaching staffs need time to mature and do their work. Emotionally however, under the circumstances, I get impatient. For example, I want Hackett fired now. I'm tired of waiting. P.S. Your fear is not irrational at all.

I've never felt more strongly that Hackett needs to be fired than I do right now after this debacle.

Let's not forget McKelvin is missing too. Kiko, Leodis, Marcell, Stephon... that's a lot of talent to be injured at the same time. Somehow Orton's stats don't look terrible but he was terrible to watch. The offensive line was even worse. The D didn't play it's best game today but I walked away blaming the offense.

Good point. We often blame Hackett and the offensive line - and rightly so IMHO - for our offensive woes. But when you watch our offensive linemen miss assignments, I'm not sure how Pat Morris escapes criticism. Our OL was horrific today and he's the guy paid to make sure they are not horrific. Morris has been an NFL OL coach since the 90s so he must know something. But it's not translating to the field very well this year.

I think Hackett has some authority but this is indeed Marrone's offense. And I think Hackett deserves blame because he's running Marrone's system (which he helped develop at Syracuse) to the very best of his ability. I don't think Hackett would be any better if he was granted more autonomy. If Marrone is pressured into firing Hackett, things will become interesting for Marrone. Right now, Marrone is running his offense through his protege who shares the same offensive philosophy. How well would Marrone handle an OC who was an independent thinker and wanted autonomy?

Yep. Let's hope Whaley is as good at his job as Brandon has been at his.