billsfan1959

- Law enforcement officers, on average, are more educated than they have ever been - They are better trained than they have ever been - They are more diversified than they have ever been - I believe body cams should be standard. - The is a standard for the use of deadly force that already exists. Trying to set completely objective standards is unreasonable given we are talking about human beings making, what are often, split-second decisions, based on various criteria and fluid dynamics. - Almost every police killing is reviewed by outside agencies and every one should be. What I don't believe should happen is leaving the decision on the legitimacy of the actions of the officer in the hands of a civilian review board. I have no problems with such boards existing and working with departments; however, they should not have that authority. I also think there isn't a group in this country that has tried harder to genuiinely reduce the effects of racism than the law enforcement community. That doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist in law enforcement. The question is, does it exist to the level of systemic pervasive racism, being alleged, where, as a group, they have no qualms with killing a person, condoning the killing of that person, and actively protect the officer(s) who killed that person as long as that person is black? I personally do not believe that. The history of racism in this country regarding blacks is all too real and much of it in the not too distant past. Black communities have been suffering for years and years with lack of opportunity, lack of resources, lack of hope, and violent crime spiraling out of control, while politicians on both sides refuse to do anything to actually help. Honestly, the people that are in those communites, every single day, trying to help the people who live there are law enforcement officers. Anger and frustration is real and where is it easiest for that anger and frustration to manifest? In interactions within the communities with the only ones there who are from outside the community and an easy representative of everything that angers them: law enforcement. The fact is, there are many reasons that black communities are disproportionately suffering and if you were to honestly list the reasons, law enforcemnent would be no where near the top of that list. Yet, they are the face of the problem. It isn't helped when you see what transpired with George Floyd and other similar disgusting, senseless, violent acts. However, hostilities in the black communities between residents and police go both ways and there is culpability on both sides. And, any aggressive violence on the part of police officers don't represent the entire force any more than aggressive violence on the part of black residents represent the whole community. I wish this country could engage in real honest dialogue about this. There is enough culpability to go around. However, solutions to the problems cannot begin until there are honest and accurate definitions of those problems - and, unfortunately, nobody wants to look at themselves honestly on either side.

Hey Hapless, You are right that, per capita, blacks have a higher probability of being killed by the police. I think statistics are a good starting point for discussions. I had provided this information in another thread and I thought it should go in a specific thread about police killings. The statistic you provided seems to be the one that is the basis for so much assumption in this country, when there are so many other stats they should be looked at as well. Per capita, black men are disproportionately represented as victims of police killings and more likely to be killed by law enforcement than any other group. Blacks are also disproportionately represented in other areas of violent crime. They account for: 53% of all murder arrests 29% of all rape arrests 54% of all robbery arrests 34% of all aggravated assult arrests 32% of all other assault arrests 54% of all weapons arrests 92-95% of all killings of blacks In addition, 38% of all LE Officers killed in the line of duty are killed by blacks. As you can see, they are disproportionately represented in all these crimes. This is not meant to infer from these stats that there must be something inherently wrong with the black race. That is as ridiculous as arguing that there is something inherently wrong with all of law enforcement because of the stat you initially provided. The point of this is that it is a statistical fact that blacks are disproportionately represented as both victims and offenders of violent crime, the overwhelming majority of that violence is intra-racial, and the vast majority of violent crime in most cities is in the lower socio-economic areas that also happen to have significant black populations. There are a lot of reasons for this and that is one area we should be having a national discussion on. When any police department allocates its resources, they allocate them according to need, with the areas having the most violent crime receiving the most resources. So, in effect, a disproportionate amount of law enforcement resources are dedicated to black communities. This is supported by the fact that blacks, per capita, have a greater amount of contact with law enforcement than any other group. This leads to a disproportionate amount of interactions between police and black men, particularly within the context of violent crime, a higher potential for emotionally charged situations, and potential for the escalation of violence. Young black men are being murdered at a disproportionate rate. In a five year span (2015-2019), over 35,000 black citizens have been murdered. Over 32,000 of those black murder victims were men, mostly young black men. The overwhelming majority of them are killed by other black citizens. Of those 35,000 murdered, black citizens, approx 95% of those were killed by other black citizens. 1164 (3%) were killed by law enforcement. Of the over 32,000 of those black men that were murdered, approx 95% were killed by other black men. 1118 ((3%) were killed by law enforcement. Each year, over 6,400 black men are murdered and an average of 223 (3%) of them are killed by law enforcement. SOURCES: Uniform Crime Reports 2015-2019 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018 https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2019-preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-released-012120 Washington Post Database of people killed by police since 2015: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ Police Contacts https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf Officers Feloniously Killed from 2009-2018 https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/home

Interestingly enough, black men are more likely to be killed by law enforcement (based on size of population) than any other group. They also have more contact with police (based on population size). However, if you are going to be a murder victim, you have the greatest chance of having your death be at the hands of law enforcement if you are a white male than any other group. 2015-2019: Approx 32,000 murders of black men. 1118 (approx 3.5%) of black men were killed by law enforcement. Approx 22,000 murders of white men. 2215 (approx 10%) of white men were killed by law enforcement. Uniform Crime Reports 2015-2019 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018 https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2019-preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-released-012120 Washington Post Database of people killed by police since 2015: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ Not trying to minimize deaths of black men at the hands of police. Just interesting numbers.

Thanks for the reply. Those figures are right out of the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports. Staggering numbers. You're right, I don't think it is widely known.

I love the request regarding white women: "Guilt them into getting rid of their stright 'white' hair to show 'solidarity' with black women." Just guilt them into it. Just shame them into it. Just bully them into it. Seems like a reasonable, honest, respectful way to go about doing things.

I said the degree of the accuracy of their perceptions is debatable. I didn't say they were entirely inaccurate. They can have a feeling that they genuinely feel. They have the right to express what they feel in a protest. I fully support any peaceful protest. However, it doesn't mean that what they feel is based on an entirely accurate perception. That is where expression of feelings is followed by honest dialogue. That really shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp and it does not equate to saying they "have no case." Perhaps it is just too nuanced for you.

I don't agree that most people on PPP don't think their fellow citizens protesting perceived injustice have a legit case. I think there is confusion about legitimacy of feelings and accuracy of perceptions. They are different. Racism is a real thing. That it exists is not debatable. The degree that it exists, the degree to which it is behind behavior in general, and the degree to which it permeates and motivates an entire profession are all debatable. I believe a vast majority of those peacefully protesting legitimately feel what they feel. However, the accuracy of their perception that an entire profession is so pervasively racist that they have no regard whatsoever for black lives is certainly open for honest debate. Of course, we all know it is easier to paint an entire group with the same brush stroke... Not intellectually honest, but easier

Yeah, I do not believe you and I will be on the exact same page from political perspectives ; however, I think we have some very common ground. I will return the compliment. I have really enjoyed your insight on the issues we have been discussing in this thread. You know what you are talking about as well. I think there have been some good discussions and honest dialogue. I appreciate that whenever I see it. I wish we saw it more at a national level from people on both sides of the political aisle or on both sides of whatever specific issue is being discussed.

I think there is a role for social workers and clinicians and they are currently used in a number of ways. I certainly am open to innovative ways to reduce potential violence in any interactions between the police and the citizens they serve. It is complex, though. Take your example of domestic violence. Believe it or not, responses to domestic violence calls (with actual violence) represent one of the biggest dangers to responding officers. They are always emotionally charged situations with really complex dynamics where police must be wary of potential violence from both offender and victim. Safety of everyone involved is always the first consideration and doesn't always lend itself to de-escalating emotions. There are so many resources available for people in these situations. Unfortunately, they almost all come into play post response. Perhaps we could develop multidisciplinary responses to the actual scene. I think, conceptually, it is a good idea, Tibs. How do we implement it a a way that minimizes risk to non-law enforcement responders? How do we integrate the different roles at the scene? Lots of questions; however, I am open to new ideas.

I watched the video several times. I don't believe the man presented any type of real threat and I don't know what his purpose was or what he was saying. To me, he was clearly confronting them about something. But, again, he didn't represent a legitimate threat. I don't think the officer responded in a terribly disproportionate way. He clearly pushed him out of the way with several orders of "get back" being heard. It didn't appear to be a hard push and certainly did not appear to be done with an intent to harm. Crowd control is always a difficult thing. They really can't pause to interact with everyone who approaches them in an effort to reason with them or provide explanations. That would destroy the cohesiveness of the unit, distract them as a unit, and, if they did that for veryone who approached, peaceful or not, it would turn into chaos. To many people, some actions seem more aggressive than they should be, like this one. However, "normal" ways of dealing with people really don't exist in these kinds of circumstances. As soon as the man went down, you could see a number of the officers pause and one actually attempt to check on the man. He was stopped by another officer. This is not uncommon. They are in formation, engaging in a specific mission, and they don't break out of that if they can help it. Operation Plans always have contingencies for medical response. You can see the officer, who started to kneel down, immediately get on his radio. My educated guess is he was requesting medical assistance. Later in the video you can hear a response, "We have EMTs on scene." I believe other officers would have remained with the man; however, there was another protester coming at them much more aggressively that they then responded to. I hate that the man was injured, I really do. I hope he is wasn't seriously injured and I wish him a speedy recovery. I do not see anything in the video that would indicate any behavior outside of protocol, that would indicate intent to injure the man, or that a reasonable person could foresee would result in serious injury. He was pushed after approaching officers and fell awkwardly. Given the events of the last 6 days, even "peaceful" protests have the potential to have isolated violent behavior or to turn violent on a larger scale. Officers simply cannot assume everyone who approaches them has peacful intent. It really is a no win situation. These are the types of situations people will, unfortunately, manipulate for their own self-interests.

I don't dismiss at all how the black communities, in almost every city, arrived at the state they are in. That was not the point of my post at all. The fact is, there are many reasons that black communities are disproportionately suffering and if you were to honestly list the reasons, law enforcemnent would be no where near the top of that list. You refer to the police in the black community as a "hostile police force." Make no mistake about it, hostilities in the black communities between residents and police go both ways and there is culpability on both sides. And, any aggressive violence on the part of police officers don't represent the entire force any more than aggressive violence on the part of black residents represent the whole community. I don't discount the history of this country regarding blacks - at all. It is all too real and much of it in the not too distant past. Black communities have been suffering for years and years while politicians on both sides refuse to do anything to actually help. Anger and frustration is real and where is it easiest for that anger and frustration to manifest? In interactions within the communities with the only ones there who are from outsided the community and an easy representative of everything that angers them: law enforcement. Blacks in this country have an an entire history that has shaped their perceptions. I acknowledge that and believe those perceptions should be openly and honestly discussed. But all sides have to be open to their own responsibilities and culpabilities. It can't be driven by political agendas or pathological self-interests. You can dismantle or reform every law enforcement agency in this country to the degree you wish. Every problem in the black communities, their frustrations, and their anger will still exist.

There are literally over a million violent crimes that take place in this country every year. On average, there are 14,000-15,000 murders each year. The majority of the victims of those murders are black men. Young black men are being murdered at a disproportionate rate. In a five year span (2015-2019), over 35,000 black citizens have been murdered. Over 32,000 of those black murder victims were men, mostly young black men. The overwhelming majority of them are killed by other black citizens. As a society, we largely look away from it all. We don't hear black leaders or politicians giving impassioned speeches. We don't see protests and riots over the injustice. Until a black man is killed by the police. Of those 35,000 murdered, black citizens, approx 95% of those were killed by other black citizens. 1164 (3%) were killed by LE Officers. Of the over 32,000 of those black men that were murdered, approx 95% were killed by other black men. 1118 ((3%) were killed by LE Officers. Each year, over 6,400 black men are murdered and approx 223 (3%) of them are killed by LE Officers. These are fairly constant numbers, much like all violent crime. When we see what happened to someone like George Floyd, then society cares. They momentarily look at it as a tragic death at the hands of some men who, at best, were absolutely indifferent to his suffering and death. Then, it is no longer about George Floyd. The situation is co-opted and manipulated to fit agendas and narratives. Anger is stoked, someone must be blamed, and they must pay the consequences. The law enforcement community becomes the embodiment of every injustice they perceive - regardless of what the facts actually say. Then we finally have black leaders and politicians giving impassioned speeches, and society showing up in the streets to protest. They transfer responsibility and blame for their outrage onto good, decent men and women who do the best they can every single day. Others will take more drastic measures and cities will burn, businesses with be looted and destroyed, people will be assaulted, and people will be killed. All in the name of police brutality and their racial hatred and targeting of the black race. Meanwhile, blacks will still represent the majority of victims and offenders of violent crime in this country. Over 6,000 black men will be murdered again this year and 95% of them will be murdered by other black men. And society will look the other way....

Of course it is. Tell me, how many of the trending stories did you follow on twitter of the Officers beaten, stabbed, shot, injured or killed in the last 6 days? I guess, in your defense, it is hard to follow trending stories that don't exist because they don't support some narrative.

Good thing there is a strong move in this country to not look at an entire group in a harmful, sterotypical way that isn't based in fact. Oh, wait...

WTF?

I already addressed that in my post previous to the one above. There are distinctions to be made that, for me, rest on the intent of the specific historical statue / monument/ etc . What we don't need is the arbitray destruction of anything based on a mob mentality. There are better avenues to address these things.

It really is a tough issue. I am very interested in American history myself and I have no problems with the existence of anything that honors the memory of Robert E. Lee, as I 'm sure you don't either. It is why people choose to honor him and elevate him that is the issue. That is what the constant struggle is for. Destroying things of historical value to stop the malevolent ways in which they are used is like tearing down windmills to stop damaging winds.

Right on the outside review. It should always happen. As for the issue of confederate statues, I am somewhat conflicted. I am not a big fan of erasing history and I feel it is a slippery slope. I also recognize that we don't want to glorify something as horrific as slavery. I think distinctions can be made. There are statues and monuments that were erected specifically to endorse white supremacy and the inferiority of the black race. I have no problem doing away with those because of the intent behind their construction. I am not a fan of eradicating statues/monuments/etc. of people that were created to honor their contributions to this country, simply because they also held a belief we might find reprehensible today, but was not that uncommon in their time. Lots of honest dialogue on that issue.

This is the shaming of America. It is nothing more than bullying people who disagree with you into agreeing with you. It is a minority of this country that engages in it, and they rely on the decency of the majority to acquiesce because they are decent people who do not want to be perceived in the manner they are being depicted. It is the very absence of tolerance by those who wrap themselves up in that particular virtue.

Sorry, just not true. Two other things: (1) A standard for the use of deadly force already exists. What people are calling for is a concrete, objective standard. That is ridiculous. It's like telling you that you have to meet 3 specific, measurable criteria to be in fear of your life, and If those three thigs do not all exist and you still are in fear of your life, then that fear is not legitimate. We are talking about human beings making, what are often, split-second decisions, based on various criteria and fluid dynamics. (2) Almost every police killing is reviewed by outside agencies and every one should be. What I don't believe should happen is leaving the decision on the legitimacy of the actions of the Officer in the hands of a civilian review board. I have no problems with such boards existing and working with departments; however, they should not have that authority.

We absolutely can agree on this. The vast majority of people in this country, regardless of race, sex, religion, profession, political affiliation, etc., are decent human beings.

He may be, he may not be. I won't assume. The point is that there are extremists on both sides.

There are extremists on both sides, my friend... A Texas man carrying an “assault rifle” at a Black Lives Matter protest Saturday has been charged with making interstate threats, the Justice Department announced. Emmanuel Quinones, 25, allegedly brought a loaded Smith & Wesson .223 semiautomatic to the protest in Lubbock to “decry” the death of George Floyd, who died in Minneapolis police custody on May 25, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Northern District of Texas said. According to the criminal complaint, Quinones refused to drop his weapon when ordered to by a Lubbock police officer -- releasing his weapon only after the officer drew his gun. A protestor reportedly tackled Quinones who allegedly yelled “this is a revolution” and “President Trump must die” before being taken into custody. Quinones said he had previously created social media posts intended to “intimidate” President Trump and “MAGA [Make America Great Again] instigators,” including a post on Facebook from May 28 that suggested he intended to obtain gun parts “to off racists and MAGA people,” according to authorities.

Former Obama Intelligence Official Helps Secure Bail for Molotov Cocktail-Throwing NYC Lawyer https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/former-obama-intelligence-official-helps-secure-bail-for-molotov-cocktail-throwing-nyc-lawyer/ A former Obama administration intelligence official who worked in both the Departments of State and Defense has guaranteed bail for a human rights lawyer accused of firebombing a police vehicle in New York City. The former official, Salmah Rizvi, told a judge the alleged firebomber is her "best friend." Rizvi, now an attorney at the D.C.-based law firm Ropes & Gray, helped secure the release of fellow lawyer Urooj Rahman by agreeing to be a suretor for her bail.

One Officer stabbed, 2 shot in Brooklyn, hours into New York City curfew https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2020/06/04/Officer-stabbed-2-shot-in-Brooklyn-attack-New-York-curfew-George-Floyd/stories/202006040112 NEW YORK - A New York City police officer on an anti-looting patrol was ambushed Wednesday by a man who walked up behind him and stabbed him in the neck, police said, setting off a struggle in which the assailant was shot and two other officers suffered gunshot injuries to their hands. All three injured officers were expected to recover. The man who attacked them was shot multiple times and was hospitalized in critical condition, said Police Commissioner Dermot Shea. Mr. Shea said the man casually approached two officers stationed in the area to prevent looting at around 11:45 a.m. and stabbed one of them. Officers a short distance away heard gunshots, rushed to the scene and saw the man with a gun in his hand, believed to have been taken from one of the officers, Mr. Shea said. The responding officers then opened fire. Shea didn’t speculate on the motive of the stabber, who was not identified, but Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch blamed anti-police rhetoric during the protests. “Are we surprised? Are we surprised we’re here in the hospital again. Did we doubt because of the rhetoric we’re hearing, the anti-police rhetoric that’s storming our streets, are we surprised that we got this call? I’m not. We said it’s going to happen,” he said.