BigBuff423

I would respectfully disagree. Again, since I used that phrase in context of the final four games, his final four games were among the best we've seen from a QB as a whole on the Bills for a long time. Is it good enough? No, not really but can he regress back to his first several games type of play? I think he can regress to that. Cover1 did a phenomenal job (as they always do and NO I don't work for them) of showing his progress over the course of the season and specifically how his last quarter contrasted so profoundly with his first quarter of the season. Allen does need to get better and certainly more consistently better, but to say that he didn't show big gains in improvement over the course of the season and therefore by definition, CAN regress since he "pro-gressed" is fundamentally an illogical statement. All of that said, I agree with your larger premise: Allen must get better, should get better and the team as a whole needs to demonstrate they ARE better.

To me, you only extend a coach when you believe that his market value will exceed the price you pay him when his contract is up, and obviously that's tied to winning as well as overall dynamics of the team. So, I really like McD and I love (on paper thus far) what Bean has done, but neither IMHO has earned an extension and I really don't think either can do that this season. An extension IMHO would come in the midst of the down time next off-season after there has been a thorough evaluation of what he's done - through his whole term. That said, if McD gets to 10 wins and makes the playoffs, I can see an extension and I can also see 10 wins, missing the playoffs and NO extension as well as 9-7 and the playoffs with NO extension. In other words, I don't think the wins alone nor the playoffs alone earn an extension. I think it has to be the totality of circumstances and taking the whole picture into mind. This is going to be his 3rd year, I think honestly, it shouldn't be until the end of his 4th season that such a thing is truly discussed. Because Buffalo needs a CONSISTENT winner, not just fluke years here and there. To fire him.....the wheels need to come off this season in order to get the boot. Total mismanagement of nearly everything and losing of course, that'll do it! Again, it depends on how those losses occurred. In other words, major injuries in the early to middle season and the whole team is derailed due to it, hard to fault him unless he put those guys in position to get hurt. If everyone's healthy (mostly) and Allen regresses or doesn't show the progress he demonstrated in the final quarter of last season, on top of losing etc.....yeah, I think Allen's trajectory is too important to keep tying incompetence to his career. Because as well know, as Allen goes - so goes this franchise. All of that said - I really believe McD is going to turn this ship around and do so for the long term.

I'm tempted to create a Twitter handle, @WhiteFordBronco and follow OJ, just so he gets the notification, "WhiteFordBronco" is now following you.

I'm not a fan of how the backfield looks just based on age, not production. I love the Singletary move in the 3rd round and his game. That said I'm even less of a fan for over-paying a self-entitled jerk whose position does not warrant above replacement level money. I'll take the Bills slightly aged backfield with the new jack in Singletary and hope after this season, the Bills can get younger on the whole. Oh, not to mention Yeldon. To me, Yeldon and Singletary make one heck of a 1-2 punch, plus Gore and Shady. Add in another 4th round RB next year and that's Yeldon, Singletary, and Rookie RB....that'll do. That is a much better plan than paying Bell and his selfish b.s. Hard pass!

Hard to see Beane parting ways with a 1st, in any year - he didn't do it for Josh Allen or Tremaine Edmunds, hard to see him doing it for Clowney that will also need a big contract. However a 3rd and Lawson would make sense. Yes, Houston wants more....but there has to be a market price and right now, except for maybe one or two teams, I don't think the market price bears out a 1st. A 2nd maybe...but 3rd and Lawson seems more reasonable IMO. And I'm not just saying this as a Bills fan. It could be the terrible NJ team that wears puke green and white, a 1st still seems high but....I guess we'll all wait to see if Houston makes the move or decides to keep him and let him play for his long-term value.

I live in Utica and we get the Syracuse CBS station, so any Bills games broadcast on the Syracuse CBS affiliate will be shown. However, when there is a conflict between Giants / Bills when the Bills play on FOX, usually we lose out to the Giants. There is one game in the middle third of the upcoming season where the Jets, Giants and Bills all play at the same time and the Bills are on the FOX station. Dollars to doughnuts that game is not shown. Usually, there's one of those games a year, which sucks, but it used to be three or four of those games a year due to the blackout rule and as others have said, no more blackouts. Hopefully that helps.

You take these drop rates and add them to the QB pressure rates with Josh being at or near the top, also produced by PFF, and it's no wonder Josh's completion percentage and overall body of work in the passing game looked worse than it really was....that's NOT saying he doesn't really need to grow and mature as a NFL QB - he certainly does. But, IMHO, these stats tell the story my eyes already knew: there's growth to be had, but it's not the leap as big as some are saying it needs to be. An improved Offensive line (if in fact that becomes reality) and improved WRs and catch rate ALONE will show some signs of Offensive life. Now, IF Josh can make some big strides as a QB and those other circumstances are shown to be improved, well now....we have ourselves a legit Offense.

I could see the Bills looking to transition him to a receiving TE. His physical attributes fit that mold a bit better and as a TE, you don't need top end WR speed. A TE needs to do the things Duke does well: use body for separation and catch / hold the ball when thrown to (and block).

One of the things that stood out to me was their ability to be patient, but then act decisively when their opportunity came. It also seemed - and it might just be the editing of the video - that right after the Singletary pick, Beane was on to find a way to Draft Knox. That indicates Knox was a target from the beginning in some respect. Had Hockenson fallen to them in the 2nd or Fant, I don't know if they would have immediately jumped at it or not, but to me Oliver was the pick all along (of course presuming Q. Williams was gone).

Yet, you quoted an $18 million dollar contract, when it only ties the Bills the one year for half that when they had so much Cap Space they signed 17 FAs and STILL have roughly $30 million left....so, that leads me back to you the point being I don't see the logic in thinking the Bills overpaid for a TE when they needed to do three things: 1. add receiving talent for Josh Allen, 2. spend money to get their Cap floor up, 3. replace TEs since Clay was cut (the right thing to do, which seems obvious to me)….. How is this NOT a good decision the way the contract is structured? He's had injury issues, but virtually every player has had injury issues in one respect or another. And, it gives the Bills options with a one year contract or the full three depending on how he plays. That would seem prudent, IMHO.

So you obviously didn’t look at the real numbers of the contract? Otherwise, hard for me to find the logic in your rebuttal.

By your initial statement: "Josh Allen could get better? Yep. I think he will." and then saying, "Big Ben had a better team? Yep. Hel also played a lot better." demonstrates the point as I already said it: "Context was the point …... It was to put it all into context and what a reasonable expectation could / should be for Josh moving into this upcoming year." It's the point because around this time of year, many fans to fail to embrace it as part of the discussion. Context is key in a QB situation, and helping to remind us all that the context has drastically changed this Off-Season can provide a reasoned, balanced, and objective viewpoint of what we can expect in terms of individual and team performance. Also, I will never be one to think the Bills *should* have taken Mahomes, regardless of what he does because again, context is key. Tyreek Hill (the baby batterer), Kareem Hunt for part of the season (woman beater), Travis Kelce, Sammy Waktkins, etc. and a great Offensive Line all gave Mahomes loads and loads more support than Josh Allen had in his first year and their situation is very, very different. In other words, Mahomes is great, but do I think he'd be just as great in Buffalo? No, I don't - because Draft picks and coaches impact how all of it unfolds. Context is the point.

Right, and it was not meant to be a demonstration of which Rookie had a better Rookie season, it was the situation both were put in with similar physical traits and arm talent. It was the idea that surrounding a Rookie QB with a complete team otherwise demonstrates just how important it truly is and that while the numbers show Ben obviously had a better season, it wasn't like comparing a 4,000 yd passer and 30 TDs to 5INTs, etc. It's that Josh is close to being a similar version of Ben, but a better runner, and with a better team around Josh, we should EXPECT to see that growth as so many have said before and again in this thread. But, people rush to judgment and point to Mahomes and say, "Ah, what did the Bills do??!!!" and then say they should have Drafted him. But fail to contextualize the potential in Josh when surrounded by Mahomes' supporting cast or as I pointed out, Big Ben's in his Rookie year. And, Ben was not meant to start his Rookie season as Josh wasn't either, but Maddox got hurt - Peterman stunk - and both were pushed forward but one had a team-ready approach the other (Bills) had not yet built the rest of the roster making Josh's development harder and his weaknesses all the more glaring. Context was the point - it wasn't about matching up or trying to convince Josh's season was on the same level as Ben's. It was to put it all into context and what a reasonable expectation could / should be for Josh moving into this upcoming year.

My intent was to try and look at some of the similarities in the production based solely on general body-type and physical ability with the arm (IMO, Josh's is better). Josh is far more mobile and athletic in that respect as well, but seeing the difference in how a well constructed team as a whole impacts a Rookie who has talent but doesn't have the Offensive Line, RB (sorry, Shady is good but he's not currently Bettis in his prime good), and WRing options Ben had and to think that with those things in mind, Josh isn't *that* far off in terms of potential. Essentially, I was showing how I believe we can look forward to Josh improving when he has the privilege of a more complete Offense to work from and a terrific Defense afforded Ben and will help Josh because neither had / has to be perfect to win games. The good Defense allows for growing pains and allows for mistakes without determining a season. The Offensive compliment of tools and resources does in fact produce different results and often in these discussions, it sounds like those of us who like Josh are making excuses for him or others are expecting him to be a miracle worker. IMHO, this provided a glimpse of what is reasonably possible in Josh's second year considering Ben's Rookie season. To me, it was just another way to see the same discussion we've had since Josh was drafted and a new perspective. I also knew there would be and will be those who don't see the value in this different perspective, and I respect that position as well. I agree that passing alone does not show Josh's overall production, but I did say in my post why I didn't include them. Merely, because the debate or discussion about how much value running as a QB adds to the position and game management overall is a whole-nother thread in and of itself. So, I stuck to passing stats alone since that will ultimately determine Josh's success or failure. But, you're right - last year it was a big part of Josh's game and an important contributor to him making some good gains as an Offensive unit on the whole.

The below stat line is from a well known QB in his Rookie year who received a great deal of attention and his team played very well. Games: Att: Comp: Perct: Att/G: Yds: Avg: Yds/G: TD: TD%: INT: INT%: Long: 20+: 40+: Sck: SckY: Rate: 14 295 196 66.4 21.1 2,621 8.9 187.2 17 5.8 11 3.7 58 43 7 30 213 98.1 Now, we have Josh Allen's Rookie year. Games: Att: Comp: Perct: Att/G: Yds: Avg: Yds/G: TD: TD%: INT: INT%: Long: 20+: 40+: Sck: SckY: Rate: 12 320 169 52.8 26.7 2,074 6.5 172.8 10 3.1 12 3.8 75T 30 5 28 213 67.9 As you may be able to tell, the first Rookie QB had about an "average" year for a QB which was some years ago, but he had one of the NFL's best Defenses, a future HOF Running back and two very good WRs at the time. Additionally, he had an established Offensive line and he didn't get injured. Now, I didn't account for the running aspect of Josh Allen's game, and it wasn't prominent for the first Rookie QB so it seemed to be apples and oranges for comparison's sake but Josh's ability to evade, escape and run is part of his allure in his Rookie year but he will need to get much better staying behind the LOS as a QB. There are some notable differences in stats, but the first Rookie QB was named AP NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year and took his team to the playoffs. When I look at the first Rookie QB who had a HOF running back, two very good WRs and a dominant Defense, along with starting the last 14 games of his Rookie season without injury and Offensive line problems, I see the upside in Josh Allen. I think most of us are on that train, but the first Rookie QB is Ben Roethlisberger. This board has gone over and over the drops by WRs / TEs and the lack of a running game and given how similar Ben and Josh Allen are in terms of arm talent and size, it seemed helpful to put these two side by side because this year, the Bills Defense should have no excuses and I expect them to produce; this year the Offensive line won't be the whipping boy for reasons the Offense can't move the ball and this year, WRs dropping balls shouldn't be a reason to not be putting up NFL passing numbers. In other words, while the jury is still out on Josh Allen, if we compare Big Ben and Josh in their development, the Steelers were at least one year ahead of their team composition and that this year, *COULD* look a lot like the Steelers' season in 2004, but with better passing production from Josh. This, to me just adds more reason for optimism. Hey, the Draft is over and mini-camp hasn't started yet....what else are we going to talk about? Go Bills!

Like all things in life, it really depends on the cost. If they both cost a 1st, then no to both. If they both cost a 2nd, then yes to Clowney and no to Jones. If Jones cost a 3rd and Clowney costs a 2nd, I'd still take Clowney. But, if Jones and Clowney both cost a third, then I'd take Jones as it will help Josh Allen in a measurable way, regardless of wins and losses. Allen's development is THE key in his 2nd year. IF Allen takes a huge step forward, then all of the investment is worth it because the Bills will have set the stage for the next decade of what can be accomplished. That's not to say I'm giving up on this year, it's just to say I don't want the Bills to bet on a Ravens-esque Defense and Dilfer at QB for the LONG term. And since we've been down this road before trying to make gold out of hay with poor QBs, IMHO - it's *more* important we see big strides in development from Josh. I think, *think*, Josh will develop AND the Bills will make a push for the playoffs if injuries aren't a big problem and the rest of the team plays to their capability. All of that said, I like the idea of Clowney better because of his position, age, talent level, and how the NFL is structured today, in terms of the game itself and contracts. I don't think people outside of Buffalo (and some inside it as well) are giving their WRs enough credit. The O-line was really bad as a whole last year and that makes it nearly impossible to sit in a pocket and make plays and even harder for a young QB to truly grow and yet, we saw it before our very eyes: Josh Allen got markedly better in his final quarter of the season. Give him time and the WRs / TEs time to get actually get a little separation, add in a better running game with better Offensive Line play, and the additions to the roster as well as developing young players in Jones and Foster (and Croom) and I think we'll see a much better passing game and QB play.

Beane is leaving nothing to chance. Great signing! The Process continues.

I agree. I am NOT a fan of taking a TE until 3rd or 4th Round based on how long they develop and how history has demonstrated their contributions. If you're anyone in the 1st round, they need to be a first year significant contributor in some measurable capacity. Only one TE in the last 20 years has shown to be worth the 1st round status: Tony Gonzalez. Gronk was a 2nd rounder and he's shown he's worth it, but that's where it stops for me. I'd rather take a OT / DL in top 10 this year or trade back for a LB and pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd round pick. I also one who thinks while the Bills did really well in FA with Offense, they have real holes on Defense and need good depth, which is where the strengths lie in this Draft, again IMO. To that end, I'd like the majority of the 1st through 4th round picks to be on Defense with a WR / RB thrown in the mix.

That's funny. And no Bills stuff simply because as much as I love the Bills, for a number of years I moved around a lot and didn't collect things. I've never been collector of anything. In fact I probably throw more stuff away than I should. That said, I used it every night and on game days, but I also made it kid friendly for my daughter who was younger than 5 at the time. So, while she wasn't in it often, I wasn't going to keep her out of it either. Suffice to say, it was a man cave because it was mine to use and because I made it that way, but not because of décor or because it had a bunch of other male-oriented items in it. My next man cave will be similar, but a little more for me now that my daughter is a few years older and doesn't need extra play space.

This was mine as part of the mostly finished basement until about two years ago. My family and I moved to Europe and then we moved back, so in the process (about halfway there) to getting into a new house. What you don't see is a 55" flat screen hanging on the wall opposite the couch and yes the bar had mini-fridge stocked with beer and soda along with snacks on the shelves under the bar. It was quite nice. I miss it....but, I'll get another one next Spring.

First, there needs to be a qualification of which WRs were "disgusting". For example, Foster was a part of PFF's Elite ranking and Zay Jones' second half of the year when Josh started to put it together was respectable. Zay Jones' Numbers in the second half of the season: Rec: 31 (of 56 total) Yards: 371 (of 652 total or 57%) TDs: 6 (of 7 total) Now, none of these numbers are incredible or great, but he came on when Josh Allen did (big surprise) and those second half numbers include a Jax game where he was targeted 1 time with 0 receptions. And that was a game-plan vs. Defense thing for the most part so putting those numbers in context shows improvement while Josh was improving. That means, it wasn't just "him" as a WR it was the whole Offense. Meaning, before you lump Foster and Z. Jones in with Kelvin-I'd rather be eating - Benjamin and the others who were NOT good, there should be some examination of information and what most of us saw with our eyes even without stats: the second half of the year showed a much different Offense as a whole and a significantly improved Josh Allen especially in the final 4 games. This should be encouraging to you and I hope it is...furthermore, when you add in Brown and Beasely and who knows what they get in the Duke kid from the CFL, putting a 1st round stake in a WR to me, is unwise. WRs in today's NFL do not carry the value above replacement level worthy of a 1st round pick. Segue into the second point about "what you can get in the 3rd or 4th round of this draft", you might want to re-think that. From Antonio Brown being a 6th round pick to Doug Baldwin being a 5th round pick, to our very own UDFA Robert Foster, a 1st round WR does not a star make. In fact, I could (and would) argue that investing in the Offensive line the way the Bills have thus far, and maybe Drafting a RT of the future would do more for the passing game than adding any WR prior to the 3rd round. I know we're probably going to disagree, so I won't belabor the point but I felt like this was all worth saying. Go Bills!

The only issue I see with that scenario is almost entirely Offense in the first 3 rounds and the teeth of this Draft in the early rounds is Defense. So, in your example if 15 were a LB or DT, and the other 3rd is the one not selected in the 1st I’m good with that. Because LB / DT is a sneaky need for the Bills, IMO. And a good WR can be had in the 4th; Offenses no longer rely on a traditional #1 WR and given the Bills’ WR additions, I don’t see the Draft being a priority for them in that area.

Last year I was not overhyped on Rosen. I trusted the process and so far, I'm encouraged by what has transpired since the Draft last year. That said, if I'm the Cards and I truly believe Murray can lead you to a championship, then trading Rosen for something of value makes the most sense. However, given the significant position issue of QB, I could also be talked into letting those two show in Camp and Pre-Season who deserves the tab to be the starting QB. If I was looking for a destination, all the usual teams would jump out: Jags, Giants, Pats. However a couple sneaky teams I could see? Saints, Seahawks and Denver Saints: let Teddy and Rosen show whom is the best QB Seahawks: with all the Russell Wilson chatter, let's see who's left standing Denver: Well, you know....Elway and QBs.

Somewhere up thread someone said that Edmunds wasn't great and his lack of production was overshadowed by the piss-poor Offense. I disagree. Edmunds showed real Rookie issues in the first half of the season. But just as fairly, he also showed tremendous improvement in his second half of the season. Let's take a look at his stats: First 8 games: Tackles: 62 - Sacks: 1 - Pass Defended: 7 - Forced Fumbles: 2 - INTs: 0 Last 7 games: Tackles: 59 - Sacks: 1 - Pass Defended: 5 - Forced Fumbles: 0 - INTs: 2 (Didn't play against Chicago) To take that a step further in his last 4 games, he really started to jump off the screen with development: Tackles: 39 - Sacks: 1 - Pass Defended: 3 Forced Fumbles: (Still 0 obviously) - INTs: 2 Looking at his production that way, he started out a little hot, then cooled, then slowly went up for a few games and then shot up at the end of the year, where you want your 1st and 2nd year guys to show the best improvement. Does he need to grow / mature into a better LB? Yes, of course he does. Was he so bad that I think he needs to make a Herculean leap to be great? No, IMO he does not. To that end, IF and it's a big IF, he continues to develop at the year's end trajectory, his second year should be quite good and probably his second half of this year we'll see what Beane and McD saw when they drafted him: a STUD LB that can anchor the Defense for years to come.

I agree that at this point the Bills need quality over quantity. That said, I don't think that necessarily means the 1st round. I think the Bills *could stay put and trade back into the 2nd round via a 3rd and 4th. AND trade back into the 3rd via a 4th and 5th. Meaning: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, etc. Now, I could also think that while the Bills don't NEED quantity and DO need quality, they could just as easily trade back and pick up an extra 2nd, making that same argument that you move down but pick up an extra 2nd, without giving up your 3rd and thereby staying at the top of the 3rd round, then positioning a 4th and 5th to get back into bottom of round 3. IMHO, that's the better move that gives you real quality at a couple positions. Meaning: trade back 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. Additionally, I think we've all seen just how big injuries impact a good team's year and having depth at key positions helps insulate against that very issue. So, CB / WR / DT / DE and LB, all come to mind regarding the Draft. Then there's the elusive RB issue. They MUST get younger legs and picking up an extra 3rd, allows them to get a very good RB without giving up that depth. Just my 2 cents because 1st round does not guarantee you top tier playmaker - just the opportunity. The league is rife with tremendous players Drafted in the middle rounds and honestly - that's where real championships are built.