OldTimer1960

For me, the concern about potential draftee's character is more about bust-factor than just that I want to root for a "good guy". Players who have shown poor off-field judgement or poor work habits or extremely selfish attitudes (IMHO) bring an increased probability of not panning out at the pro level. I am completely aware that some of the best players in the NFL also carry these characteristics, but there is a history of draftees failing at the NFL level because of these traits. All things being fairly equal, I'd prefer the equally talented or slightly less talented draftee with the drive and work ethic to maximize his potential over the more talented guy that has baggage or poor work habits. Of course, I find it easier to root for try-hard, high-character guys like Fred Jackson and Kyle Williams, but at the end of the day, I am cheering for production at the NFL level and can over-look a certain amount of "terd-ness" in players just as many of us still watch movies by certain actors or love the music of certain musicians even though they may exhibit horrible behavior.

That is very encouraging (regarding David). I do hope that there are some good 4-3 OLBs in this draft because it is sure that the Bills need some!

I don't really see a lot to like in a 4-3 system beyond Kuechly and only if he can play outside. The guys that fit the 4-3 OLB are 3rd and 4th round kind of guys (based on what I've read). They are all quite undersized and the Bills would likely be passing better players at other positions to take any of them in the 2nd and maybe 3rd rounds. I know some here like David, but I don't get a warm fuzzy reading about him - undersized and stiff is what I remember reading. Hopefully, some of these guys will pan out if the Bills take them, but I would stay away from the position in the draft in spite of the great need that they have there. I should make one note, I think that Melvin Ingram might be able to play SLB in the 4-3, he is extremely athletic.

I'm not a Hightower fan for a team that is playing mostly 4-3. In the pass-happy NFL, I am not sure that Hightower is a good fit unless he is essentially used as an inside pass rusher from the 3-4. Others may see something that I don't, but I just can't imagine him as a 4-3 OLB trying to cover any NFL back, TE or WR on any occasion. I am not a big Mike Adams fan, either. I just think that there are way too many unanswered questions, but the guy sure does have size and talent. It just seems like there has been a pattern of him not working hard to develop those talents to the fullest. If the Bills agree with that assessment, I wouldn't touch him until the 3rd at the earliest (and he won't be available then - someone will think that they can get him to work harder).

Now, I am NOT saying that a team should NEVER draft a player with off-field concerns. There is a point where a very talented player's upside exceeds his downside due to off-field problems. However, heed the lesson that the Lions are paying now. Two of their top 3 picks in last year's draft are in trouble and face potential suspensions for drug use. They ignored the red-flags and are (maybe) paying the price. Here is an article from ProFootballTalk about this: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/04/lions-looked-past-character-concerns-in-last-years-draft/

Unless Notre Dame campus police frequent Minneapolis, I don't the the "citation" was an on-campus issue. I am not saying that Floyd should not be considered, only that you can't dismiss 3 incident involving the law as a complete non-issue. Each team needs to evaluate his talent level and risk level and determine at what point in the draft his talent outweighs their perceived risk.

I *want* to like Upshaw a lot. He has the work ethic, makeup and production at a high level of competition in college to really say: great prospect. BUT, I just don't see a star player in him. He's short for a DE, not fast or flexible for a pass rushing DE, probably can't play OLB in the 4-3, but might be a good rush 'backer in a 3-4. I just don't see a position for him on the Bills that warrants the 10th overall pick.

I think Wright will not go in round 1 after his combine and pro days. He rans very slow for a "speed" WR at the combine. He did post a better time at his pro day, but managed only 4 reps at 225 and isn't that big, either. Now, I am not saying that Wright won't be a good player, but his size, lack of strength and the fact that he isn't as ultra-fast as advertised may not have him go as high as many thought initially.

I get your points and I agree to some extent. I am reacting to the "it's no big deal at all - nothing to consider" point of view. It IS something to consider. Each team must make their own assessment of the risk and his talent level. Each will determine at what point in the draft his talent outweighs the risks with him - and that, of course, depends on how big of a risk any team sees it as (as well as how great they see his talent) . I do suspect that there is more to it than 2 under-age drinking arrests. While I don't have any better true knowledge of the situation that you do, I have to wonder if police really went into a party and saw star football player Michael Floyd peacefully having a beer and decided to arrest him - twice. Now, maybe it happened that way and, if so, you are right that those are not great cause for concern to me. However, I wonder if there wasn't maybe more to it than that. I haven't been on a college campus or at a college house party in > 20 years - do police regularly bust those and arrest every under-age drinker there?

Or maybe he was able to stay out of trouble for one year because he realized that millions of dollars were on the line. Will he stay out of trouble AFTER he has those millions (he will be extremely rich the minute that he signs his rookie contract)? I don't know the answer and neither do you. I agree it is encouraging that he stayed out of trouble last year, but I don't think that is a reason to completely ignore the 3 earlier issues, DUI being quite significant. My point is not to argue that he is or is not worth taking at the 10th pick. It is just to say that all of his history and potential needs to be considered. I am not a big risk-taker, so for me, I'd avoid taking the risk, but certainly other view-points are valid, too. It is a risk-reward question.

Not this argument again! How many people were arrested 3x in college for alcohol related incidents, including a DUI? How many college football players with tremendous skills almost blow their senior season by getting a DUI? The coach nearly suspended him for his entire senior season. Now, you can correctly point out that he got his stuff together and didn't get in any trouble as a senior. Maybe he has matured and become more focused. Maybe not. The question to me is whether that is a good gamble to take with the 10th pick in the entire draft.

So, your assessment of this "crazy" talent is based on your assumption that Floyd and Sanu are capable of being top WRs in the NFL. Based only on what I've read (there is possibility of significant error here), I think Floyd is a VERY risky pick in round one and is not guaranteed to be a top WR. While I like what I've read about Sanu and I am encouraged by his better-than-expected 40 times in his recent pro-day, he only averaged a very pedestrian 10ypc in the stinking Big-East. MAYBE that was because his QB was bad or due to limitations on their OL, but it raises concerns with me. James Hardy had tons of catches in the Big 10 - a much better conference than Big East, and he flamed out despite having better size, too.

Jeffrey doesn't interest me at all, not in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounds. There is a reason that nobody that has watched his games thinks that he can succeed in the NFL.

First, there is A LOT more to playing OT in the NFL than strength - athletic ability is one of them. Second, if you have friends doing 40 reps of 225 and could play LT in the NFL, then BY ALL MEANS become their agent.

no thanks, . Maybe he has matured, but I don't think Tenn would have released him and his winning record if they didn't think he had big problems

Of the 3, my vote is for Kuechly then Gilmore with Floyd a distant third. My reasoning is that most ratings of the 3 that I think are good, rate these guys about equal in talent and Kuechly seems like the safest or "lowest floor" guy of the 3. Gilmore seems to be second with outstanding athletic ability at a position of need. Just my opinion, but I'd avoid Floyd like the plague because of the off-field risk. I am NOT saying he will get in trouble in the NFL, but rather saying that I don't see him as a MUCH better talent than the alternatives and I see his risk as greater.

I guess that I don't disagree, you don't need a 1st round LT to succeed in the NFL. Nor, do I think you need a 1st round <insert any position here>. The Pats don't have a 1st round WR, yet they have been consistently good for a long time. What they have is a GREAT QB. The Saints had a 1st round WR, but he was not their star - the 7th round pick Colston was - but they have a GREAT QB. I could be wrong, but the Packers don't have a 1st round WR, either. I am not picking on WRs, only pointing out that your argument works for any position. I get that a great WR helps open up a lot for an offense. I also agree with some here that a great OL does, too. Same as a great QB, RB or TE. A football team is a system and as many strong parts that you can put in it, the better. No doubt, there are some positions that are more important than others (in particular QB and DE/OLB that can rush the passer), but having a particularly weak link at any position can compromise the system to some degree.

It's almost certainly true of every position (maybe less-so of QB) that most starters weren't 1st round picks. If you accept that teams only have 1 1st round pick and that there are 22 starting positions, then it would take 22 years to fill every position with a 1st round pick. The average NFL career is about 3.5 years, so that isn't going to work... I think that teams need to look for truly great prospects at #1 over needs, but if there are no great prospects available, then need becomes the next factor to consider.

There were signs that the guy could flame out from off-field problems and he did. It was a risk/reward scenario. He was a risky pick, but they thought that his exceptional talent level warranted the risk. In hindsight, it did not work out very well.

Do you mean a previous post in this thread where I said: "I agree that the Bills need another top-level WR and I agree to some degree that Floyd is a good prospect there. I just don't see him as elite or better than players available at other positions - players who don't have the off-field red-flags that Floyd does." ? I think if you take the time to read my posts that you'll find that I am usually pretty fair and balanced and rarely see things as completely black and white. I freely acknowledge the I don't know everything. My point all through this thread is that while WR is certainly a big need and Floyd is certainly a talented prospect, I am worried about the alcohol problem. I personally don't think it should be minimized to "he's just a college kid who had some drinks". As another poster noted, he had 3 alcohol related incidents, one of which was a DUI -pretty serious. He put his college career in jeopardy. True, he cleaned up for his Senior year. Maybe he has matured and addressed that issue and it won't surface again or maybe it will get worse when he has lots of money. I don't know, I am just arguing that I'd rather not take that chance on the 10th pick in the draft. I was also arguing in this thread the exact opposite of what you accused me of being hypocritical about. I think the original premise of this thread was that "Bills need a WR and a LT, but LTs can be found late and developed while WRs are harder to do that with". There is no doubt that the Bills need both an upgrade at LT and WR. There is no debate that both would help open up the Bills' offense. My point there is that they should try to address both needs and the higher in the draft they address each, the better chance they can improve those positions.

What part of "Indeed, both the OL and WR group had serious shortcomings that Gailey and the offensive staff did their best to hide." did you not understand? I never made the "fairly hypocritical" argument that the WRs were just fine. Did you only read the part that supported your argument?

I think it shows more muscle endurance than peak power, but I get your point.

Agreed, the Bills need more 4-3 LBs (good ones). Trouble is, unless the team thinks Luke Kuechly can be very good at OLB, I don't see much to like at that position. Many of the top guys listed at OLB in the draft pubs are only 3-4 OLBs or are 4-3 DEs (Melvin Ingram, Courtney Upshaw for example).

I am not disagreeing with the notion that generally better players are found in the earlier rounds of the draft. That really is my point. I don't understand the argument that you have to find a WR early, but can take late-round players and make them good starting OLTs. True, it does sometimes happen at any position that a late round guy makes it, but it is more likely to get a good starter earlier. I agree that the Bills need another top-level WR and I agree to some degree that Floyd is a good prospect there. I just don't see him as elite or better than players available at other positions - players who don't have the off-field red-flags that Floyd does. To you point that late round gem WRs like SJ, Colston and Miles Austin are few and far between, I'd add the following to the list: Wes Welker (undrafted), Victor Cruz (5th), Mario Manningham (3rd, I think), Anquan Bolden (2nd), Brandon Marshall (4th), Steve Smith (Carolina 3rd), Mike Wallace (3rd), Antonio Brown (6th), Desean Jackson (2nd), Brandon Lloyd (4th). I am pretty sure I could list more, but that is a pretty good list there. I am sure that you could counter with some good starting OTs that were taken later, too, but I think the list would be shorter (just my opinion).

I don't disagree, but you can select any of the first round picks that Millen made and I believe that if he hadn't taken those players then some other team would have grabbed them not too long after Detroits pick. All of those picks were considered highly rated guys. Don't make the mistake of thinking that all NFL GMs are infallible at drafting. Tom Brady was a 6th round pick - this is kind of the opposite issue of taking a bad player early, but he made it to the 6th round meaning that every GM in the league was wrong at least 5 times on him.