NoSaint
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Agree........but I can't see him getting 2 million as a situational pass rusher. Even with his experience, he's going to be late coming into a team's camp, having to learn all new terminology. Can't see that happening for 2 mill.
whats the going rate for guys coming off 10 sack seasons? ones that have averaged 10 a year there entire career? im pretty sure average backups make more then that. who said situational pass rusher? im pretty sure he would start just about any place he went....
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It gets done. If you watch CIN (not recommended), you will see how they go after Polamalu and Lewis. Polamalu leads with his head and gets smashed. Cedric Benson knocked him silly last season. Lewis is smarter, but he usually ends up committing a gratuitous personal foul late in the game., e.g:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4KZnxHFrVk
That thing kept CIN alive for an eventual win.
I'm betting that next time they face Revis, he will be on the hit parade.
obviously you want to play physical with him but that same cincy team had shots at him twice in a row - both at home - once in the playoffs. if it were that easy, im guessing they wouldve done it at some point.
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1) I'll take 10 sacks for 2009 any Sunday lost a step or not! I have a feeling so would a lot of teams if they have a brain.
2) Don't play Madden. I missed that generation
3) Something is better than nothing. Wouldn't you agree.
While trying to change the subject the issue you didn't address is whether Schobel screwed us or not. The only reason we can't get anything for a 10 sack a year guy is because he bent the front office over. By your thinking we should have just released Jason Peters and no harm no foul. Your direct quote. "I love this move, it says a clear message to the team that no one is above everyone else. Either you come in a compete or you wont be here, plain and simple."
Peters is a very different situation. Holding out for more money, and what schobel did are apples and oranges.
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He won't be so valuable if I were an OC. I would plot to plant him into the turf and therefore remove him as an irritant.
if it were that easy, it would have been done many times over by now. he played in what -- 19 games against a dozen OC's and no one did it. whether with help or not, he was nasty good. whether he can play that way long term, we will see. whether hes worth QB money? almost certainly not. If they decide to keep sanchez in a couple years they would have $40 mil a year wrapped up in those two alone.
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Revis was given a "get out of jail free" card by the refs all season long...
that may true but as long as he owns that card he is still more valuable then the next guy.
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Knowing he had no trade value and being on the hook for his contract, could the Bills not kept Schobel and fined him every day and kept his game checks? I don't think that money goes to the cap, but they still get it back don't they?
Isn't this the main reason players can't afford to sit out?
you can force him to show up, you cant force him to be good as a LB though. if he says he is willing to come at the end of camp and wing it from there you can fine him for missed practice, but would be on the hook for the bonus when he showed up. if he is on the roster come opening day you are on the hook for the salary as well at that point.
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I thought we went over this already? The Jets D shut down everyone. All those numbers for all those recievers suck. This was not because of Revis alone, but rather the Jets D being very good all over. Revis didnt cover the #1 guy every single play. Revis was coving some of those #2s, 3s, or the TE when they caught passes. Revis wasnt covering the #1 when they caught some of those passes they did. Those stats prove nothing.
Thats like saying "Thomas jones ran for 200 yards vrs the Bills, and since Poz is teh MLB its his job to stop the run, so man Poz must SUCK!"
but you are arguing that he gave up a few catches to the number 2 and it seems that he would give up those 3-4 catches to the number 1 also? or did he shut them out?
The number two corner mustve been pretty good if revis was giving up a solid 6-8 catches a game to the outside receivers and he was giving up next to nothing. maybe he should get the big contract. oh wait == he got replaced.
i know the #1 receivers stat line is not a hardline way to present the information but why would things play out like this if what you were saying you saw in a couple instances was true across the bored?
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Good one. I must not follow the NFL because i don't care what a declining, average DE does for another team.
to call him average at DE seems like revisionist history. maybe he is average in a group of probowl defensive ends. If lined up with freeny, and allen he wont be the one you notice first - I would never qualify him as the best in the league, but any given year hes right up there and that consistency at the top 5-10 is sometimes better then one or two monster years ala peppers. not being reggie white or bruce smith should not tarnish what an impressive career he has had.
he is far above average in this league -- just probably not at OLB at this point.
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Hey do you guys remember when Schobel got that awesome, timely, meaningful sack that helped us win that game?
Me neither.
remember those times the other team was driving late in the game and we played our corners 15 yards off the line and they drove down the field with quick passes totally neutralizing our pass rush and we didnt adjust?
more then a few times in recent years.
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It will be interesting to see if he reports, because if he does and passes a physical, he gets that $2M roster bonus (it's guaranteed). Then it will be interesting to see if they can find a trade partner, although that seems unlikely. And if they can't, it makes much more sense to keep him, since cutting him wastes that $2M and gives him what he wants. Keeping him forces him to either show up and play or retire, at which point they can go after the unamortized portion of his signing bonus, which will recoup that $2M roster bonus many times over.
or he shows up 3 weeks late to camp, tries to play a position he has no qualifications for, in a defense he knows little about and the team has paid him 8 million for nothing. being willing to play does not equate to being the best option.
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I'm sorry to see it play out this way, but this is the way it is in the NFL, and I don't have a big problem with it. Too bad he didn't want to be with us during the rebuilding and the new defense. Too bad Houston didn't want to give us anything. But he is not interested in playing for us, we don't have a trading partner, and we aren't going to deal with a mini-Favre situations of having a guy in camp who is only there to get out of there and force our hand.
As for the you have a contract you should show up and play, I love the unicorn-filled world where that is true, but we know the NFL is all about contracts that are not to be respected...either renegotiated because they aren't enough, or released while years are left because the team needs to save cap space. So I don't have much more of a problem with this than if he were a free agent and signed a two million dollar one year deal with the Texans. Would be nicer to have seen him retire a Bill, but not worth shedding a tear. He has been a good soldier and a good player through a lot of stuff and very little winning. I don't begrudge him whatever he wants to do in 2011, whether be with the Texans or go try to win somewhere else.
i agree with this assessment 100%. i know its not ideal, but of the real ways this could play out.... it really kind of is. it wouldve been nice to put the brakes on this and sort it out 6 months ago, but here we are in august, and there arent any other BETTER choices. sometimes you have to make the best of a bad situation.
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He's a lot better than you give him credit for. Other teams know it. You'll see.
i think your oversimplifying it though. a lot of great DEs have been terrible OLBs. Living in new orleans i would love gregg williams to add him to the defense down here, but thats because he fits the system, the scheme, could come in two weeks late and know the terminology, a lot of the plays. him walking into buffalo on august 15 with hopes of starting is a recipe for disaster.
yes this all played out weird with the favre like im retiring, no im not, yes i should -- but at somepoint it really wasnt going to be best for him to come back even if he wanted to.
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On the flipside of the arguements that I have been making there is one thing that does really bother me.....
- Team is being patient with Schrobel
- I hear reports of Aaron leaning toward coming back
- I hear reports of Aaron looking for housing in the area
- Then I see Buddy saying that they are moving on without Schrobel
What I would like to know really is what caused us to get from Hes a good player he will get here when he gets here to Nope he is not going to play for us
It bothers me....Im not going to lie about it
im guessing aaron saying he wanted to come for mid august made them say no.
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Good teams don't cut top tier players.
good teams tend not to have total defensive overhauls forcing players into new positions either. bad teams rebuilding sometimes do have to cut good players.
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All this stuff about "he's untradeable - let him go!" kinda misses an obvious point. He's an excellent football player, and non-Bills fans who know the game know it. According to Advanced NFL stats, he was the most effective DE in the league last year. Now one might quibble with their system, which is quite complicated, but the rest of the list seems plausibly ordered and they measure for a lot of factors.
being a great DE and a great OLB are very different.
all you proved to me is that they should have schemed around the talent they had instead of forcing a system if they wanted him on this defense.
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According to JW's reporting, it went down like this: Nix called Schobel, told him the Bills were going in a different direction. Schobel then said something to the effect of "what if I report now," to which Nix replied "you'd be released."
The Bills decided it didn't make sense to pay someone $8 million to spend one year at a new position. Perfectly reasonable. But by announcing it to the world BEFORE they made any effort to trade him, they lost any leverage they may have had.
the only addition i would make is that we dont know if they have talked to anyone or not about a trade. if they floated it out there and other teams laughed, we might never know. also if aaron was serious about retirement as an option he had the ultimate veto.
showing up and making him play might not have been a real option as some are arguing. if the coaches dont trust he can get it done on the field at this point at that position, why would the force him to play for 8million. This isnt like peters where you force him to play even though he thinks he deserves more. this is a situation where the team doesnt think hes a fit with the transition coming this late, and aaron isnt sure he wants to be here. at this point hed be playing a new position, and theres no reason to believe hed play it any better then anyone else on the roster.
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But our new GM, painted himself into a corner on Schobel. First he says, "Aaron can come in whenever he wants, we need good football players." Then, a few days later, he says "We are moving on without Aaron Schobel. We have not talked to anyone about a trade. We will not release Aaron Schobel. There are no circumstances under which Aaron Schobel will play football for the Buffalo Bills in 2010. When he decides what he is going to do, we will go from there, possibly work out a trade." Great Buddy, show 'em!!!
Two days later, they release him, getting nothing for him. Somebody will sign him, for around the same 2 million the Bills are trying to save. Nicely played Buddy....eliminating all your bargaining power, all your options, without even talking to another team....
the problem is no matter how much buddy said that, the only card the bills held was the threat of paying him 8 million to sit on the bench. literally that was the ONLY trump they had on the situation. i dont care what the argument, no one can convince me that is better then releasing him.
when you take that off the table, a release was really the right way to handle it - making a bad situation ugly does not help anyone. a trade just was never a possibility and buddy should have seen that two days ago.
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its like what i was saying in the other thread -- all schobel had to say was "hey ill be on the plane in August 15 -- see you soon" and we would either have to release, or pay him to eat up a roster spot (assuming he wouldnt be "ready" to play OLB).... there was little to no chance of a trade with every team knowing this.
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all true. but, the way it played out, they caught fire (and the breaks you mentioned above) at the right time and it went the way it did. looks to me like they retooled for a run this year.
i wouldnt call what they did catching fire. they beat some suspect teams -- a win is a win, but none of them were truly impressive, benchmark victories to point to.
indy -- reserves
cincy -- when was the last playoff win??
SD -- what was there last clutch win??
when you dig into their season they are a lot less impressive then espn anchors would lead us to believe. they lost a lot of winnable games (we all saw some)
and for re-tooling
id rather:
thomas jones then shonn at #1
shonn then LT for #2
washington over mcknight at #3
faneca of Ducasse (atleast for a one year run) seems like a downgrade
cromartie is the one that GAVE them that SD game by playing soft
revis is sitting still
Holmes is missing 4 games, and a distraction waiting to happen
braylon is a headcase at WR
sanchez put up nothing of note last year, didnt lose a ton of games but certainly didnt win many, will he improve?
thats a lot of question marks for a "SB favorite" as they have been anointed in bristol, especially for a decidely average to slightly above average team last year.
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I read where he said he wasn't going to do that and put the Bills on the spot, but both sides have been telling obvious lies so what would stop him from doing that. He said he is interested in the Texans, but they have enough DEs, so unless they have an injury, they aren't interested in him. He could pull what Favre did in Green Bay, but in this case, the Bills would probably keep him.
I was mostly referring to the person saying nix holds ALL the cards. Really if schobel wanted to walk into camp in two weeks, he wouldnt know the position and would be getting paid 8 million to sit on the bench? start at a position he doesnt know?
We would be forced to release him at that point. If he wont be ready to play, and would be making 8million, theres no alternative.
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I have said this before and will always stand on it...there is not now nor will there ever be a CB worth that kind of money. NE proved just a few years ago fielding thier 4th - 7th string CB's that you can win without a 'shutdown corner'. I have always felt that is a pure bull **** term as well. You let a WR run for 4+ seconds and he is gonna get open somehow. Andre Reed schooled Deion when they met up. did he just try to race him down the field? No, he ran crisp routes on his ass and owned him.
Any team can take 4 average DB's and go to a superbowl and with with a great pass rush. There are 3 cornerstones to any great franchise, QB, LT and a pass rusher off the Right side. Screw these idiot DB's thinking they are worth 14 mill or so per year.
If I were the Jets I would be taking trade offers right now for the idiot.
Generally true. Maybe a little oversimplified but if you follow the rule you should find success. There is only one argument I would make for maybe a handful of guys-
The one thing that revis does is actually shut down the 1. A lot of shut down corners ala clements just take the 2 and allow a double to neutralize the top guy. If you can take a #1 away with one man its like having an extra guy on the field. Suddenly you can blitz every play if you want with that "extra guy" giving you an alternative the dominating DE.
Not a recipe I want to bank on but in rare cases may work.
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Revis was due $1 million this season, drastically underpaid for one of the best CB's in the league. He'd be the 7th-highest paid Jets defensive back.
HOWEVER--
He held out before his rookie season, after he was drafted, in order to secure an EXTRA year on his first contract. He signed a 6-year deal, and also had a guaranteed clause in his contract that if he was in training camp everyday thereafter of his first four seasons, he would activate $20 million in guaranteed money over the last two seasons of the deal.
Therefore, by holding out, he is forfeiting what is essentially a 3-year, $21 million guaranteed deal, a fairly reasonable sum for a first contract. But he is seeking the richest contract for a CB in the NFL.
The Jets are so strapped for cap space, they have offered (as the Titans did with Chris Johnson) an attempt at a raise for this season, but the offer was believed to have been in the $2.5-$3 million range, which Revis called "laughable."
Revis is making a foolish move, in my opinion, by forfeiting that guaranteed money (via his absence at camp.) Obviously, by leaving that money on the table, he's not going to sign a meager contract. But really, his only leverage is the hope that the Jets feel they have a Super Bowl team, and need him to win this year. Otherwise, he's backed himself into an unbelievably stupid corner, especially after holding out as a rookie to secure the extra year on his deal.
jets aren't strapped for cash or cap space. The issue is that is killing them is the 30% rule. With his low salary this year essentially a 100 mill contract for him would be an absolute mess to put together. He's allegedly been offered a big deal though, or a couple million in free money this year with no new years added- both being olive branches on the jets side but all he's done is embarass them in return. Faking injuries etc
The jets have broken handshake deals in the past to rework contracts "after the season" so I see why he doesn't want to wait.
I'm surprised more players haven't realized there own agents could've helped in this situation by going for high salaries in year X of the contract in order to give future leverage.
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Why does this suprise anyone? I called 'injury' after he failed the first one.
Look here it is again....he isn't an NT and doesn't want to play NT and Idon't blame him. He is one of the best DT's to play the game in years and that is what he is. He is a gap penetrating, disruptive DT that they want to sit in the middle and just hold up the Center. Bull ****.
It would be like asking a 6'4 225lb WR with 4.4 speed to come to a new team, then a year later tell him he has to gain 20lbs and play TE when this guy has been a several time WR and one of the best currently in the game. sorry NO!
He was paid 100 mill to play DT, not NT, DT and there is a HUGE difference between the two positions. Washington apperantly had plans to make the switch to a 3-4 before signing him and I guess just thought he would go along with it.
Now some say 'well he is getting paid 100mill play where the coach wants you to play' I again say bull ****. He is a DT, has always been one and that is what you signed him to do. Now if you decide to make a change then ship the guy outta there and get you an NT.
the only thing he did wrong imho is take the 21 mill bonus in April. He should have said no and then flat told them he isn't reporting ever again and he would have been traded by now.
As for as this bull **** conditioning test is concerned, he is going to intentionally fail it EVERY time. Why? Two reasons. First is a !@#$ you to Shanahan, second is he doesn't have to practice and still gets paid as long as he cant pass it. Now you have him saying he is having knee issues. Wanna bet he says the conditioning test is what caused it?
Look washington isn't going to win this. All he has to do is drag ass for the rest of this season and they can't get back that 21 million bonus they paid him and he can then retire to force their hand in a trade when they eat the escilated portion of that 100 mill contract.
Moral of the story? Dont EVER pay that much money to any player.
within taking that money he made a choice to play NT. The rumors in April when the payment was made are that he was given an opportunity to leave the team or collect the money AFTER he was informed of the switch and he stayed. he also will play a rotation of NT and DE. if you tell the wide receiver that he can walk or take the money and do some blocking too, and they stay i think its totally fair to put them on the line some plays.
i do agree its the redskins fault for the contract and seems to be karma for the likely tampering they did to get him out of tenessee.
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If the Bills do anything other than leave him on the failed to report list and keep the rights to him or trade him for value it just shows you this regime is just more of the samr lame crap that we have been putting up with for years here. Let's see if Nix and the rest of the game have any balls and keep all the cards that they are already holding and not give in to what apparently was what Schobel wanted all along. I have always liked Schobel and thought he was underrated and was hoping he came in until this crap today. If the Bills let everyone who didn't want to play in Buffalo get their way and leave, they might not have enough players to field a team. Go Buddly, show us if you have any nuts or are just another continuation of the spinless garbage we have become accustomed to. Something must have happend or there are a bunch of liars here. Up until this point, Schobel said it was the Bills or retire and Nix was saying just a week or so ago that Schobel is always welcomed back and we aren't going to rush him. Something smells rotten.
one problem -- what if he shows up?
ESPN Text Alert - Schobel cut w/link
in The Stadium Wall Archives
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if schobel said "i am coming to camp, i wont accept any trade, i will retire immediately if traded" -- what would nix's recourse be if he no longer believed in schobels ability to be in buffalo? who knows what happened behind the scenes..... everyone assumes nix ate it on this one but aaron had every ounce of leverage to force his release here, and unless he was willing to let his new team give the gift of a draft pick in return, buffalo wasnt getting one.