NoSaint
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I don't understand, I didn't say he didn't become more productive. Just that he wasn't an unproductive player prior to his junior year as some have claimed. Some may have considered him a bust due to the expectations of a #1 overall recruit, but he was still producing in those years unlike Fairley or some of the other highly touted draft prospects. I've also yet to read anything to say that he wasn't dedicated prior to his junior year, just that he dropped weight. Perhaps the weight drop improved his speed/quickness and made him a better player, he's still not small by any measure. There's also this:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619548
The point of my post was to say that Bowers is a big man, and has played at an even bigger size and been a productive player. He's also lauded for his strength and ability as a run stopper, and has drawn comparisons to other 3-4 ends (Shaun Ellis). Therefore perhaps he could be the best option for the Bills as he could fit into a multiple front type defense as a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.
I guess my point is, as your posts showed, that he needed that extra push to play elite. He played good, not great before getting that kick is my impression. It worries me that he may be ok with good not great.
My other concern with your post is at 295 he can play 34 end. At 275 he can play 43 end. That isn't playing both schemes interchangeably.
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How will better talent around Poz make him shed blocks better or not get dragged the extra 3 yards by rb's or learn how to cover TE's or pursue the play properly. I'm not sure how better talent around him is going to make him better. Good players make people around them better. I expect a good mlb to make the people around him better and not to wait for a good player to come and make him better. If the latter is the case he becomes very expendable.
The front office needs to replace all of them because they all suck. I understand your phased approached but his contract is up now. Why delay the move?
You mean like if the defensive line could keep the OL off him, he'd have less blocks to shed? If the RB got redirected it would be a lot harder to drag him without that full head of steam while poz is getting moved backwards by a 300lbs man?
To only hold coverage 3 seconds not 6 if we had a pass rush?
Would those things make him look better?
Pre-ngata, people asked if ray Lewis was done. Not saying poz is ray, but that it is a prime example of an elite LB struggling because of talent around him
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The bust tag was labeled due to a lack of sacks, not so much production. He started 6 games as a true freshman earning freshman all american and started his entire sophomore season, however missed time in 5 games due to a knee injury (further hurting his sack #s). Obviously those sack #s exploded his junior year. I'm starting to lean his way as he can be productive as either a DE in a 3-4 and as a strong side pass rushing DE in nickel or 4-3 situations. I question his ability to play OLB in a 3-4.
If he didn't have issues... Why did he lose 20lbs and rededicate himself before last season?
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Im not arguing you in this particular case, because I do agree with you that Poz has noever had any help from his teammates, but that seems to be the reasoning with every single player on the team. "Get Fitz an OL, Get evans better QB, Get Fitz a TE, Get SPiller a OL, get a pass rush and our DBs are better, better DL makes our LBs Better..."
It never ends. Eventually we are going to have to get a FEW GOOD PLAYERS who are good all on their own.
What I read is that we need front 7 help, oline help, and our qb..... We might have one or two people in those units but 2/5 or 2/7 will hurt those two real players and everyone playing behind them in the system.. I think that's reasonable.
How do you build a winner? Get a qb, protect a qb, harass their qb. We have accomplishes none of those and because of that our CBs, safeties, WRs and RBs are all going to struggle.
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YES how is everyone not all over this. We're not drafting Newton like we weren't gonna take Tebow.
Several "experts" had Tebow as the pick
Misinformation with what goal? I've asked no less the 5 times in this thread with no answer... Cam is the only player someone might jump in front of us for! Who was the last big trade up in the top three for a non qb? Without players and 2012 picks - who has the ammo?
What is to gain from this misinformation? What's hidden behind this smokescreen?
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I don't get it? Why would it be funny that the NFL franchise hopefuls in LA think they can amke more money in the parking lot if the team they steal is the Bills?
Because no one would want to see them play football. Think of all the "I just go for the tailgate" posts we hear. The "if they make the rules stricter in lot 1 I'm done" posts...
This team has devolved into an excuse to drink in a parking lot by a half empty stadium, I believe is the joke
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I still think you are a bit confused. Fairly isnt a quick penetrator he is a mean bullrusher type. He will disrupt anywhere along the DL while Dareus gets upfield. That wouldnt put Fairley into the 3 tech per say, but KW has never been the 3 tech for us - he has been a nose guard since his rookie year.
You are saying he plays like KW (which I agree with) but then say that puts him at a position KW doesnt play, which is already filled by KW....?
I honestly think the best analagy is from last year:
Fairley = Suh
Dares = McCoy
If we had any semblance of a NT for our team last year, what position would KW have played? the 3 tech? yup.
If we draft fairley, what position would he play? 3 tech? yup.
Does it bother me that they would have the same "ideal position" and one of them would be playing out of position? yup.
if you read many scouting reports, or pretty much any SEC boards take, or even several posters on this board, or the official buffalobills.com board --- do they compare fairley to sapp? yup. pretty consistently.
where does that comparison come from? sapp got to the qb A LOT. what does fairley do? get to the QB A LOT.
What does dareus do? 5 tech work. sets the edge. controls his end of the line. hes a prototype at 5 tech. what is richard seymour? a prototype 5 tech. do either get a ton of sacks? no, but they can get there when they need to. will they be HOF players? probably not. Do i think dareus will go to a lot of probowls, much like seymour, without accumulating sacks? yup.
i get that they might not be the same height or weight, they might not use the same moves, but i think for your average nfl fan -- the comparison works better this way.
Where did you get these measurements? Fairley isn't even listed at 300lbs, let alone 320.
Nick Fairley is 7 feet tall, 400 lbs, and has speed. let me tell you about his speed.
i think truly hes going to be a good player, but i worry he wont be able to get to the qb from the inside like people think. there werent great center guard combos in the SEC this year, and he was schemed to be the free man in the championship game. I think he will be good, but he worries me a little bit more as a boom or bust guy. we will see though. if he can get 10 sacks a year from the DT position itll help some team immensely.
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No but it would be nice, maybe a second or third.
Can't there be trades till the dead line?
Deadline was week 6.
You really don't believe he could take over Marvin Harrison's role for Indy????
No:
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To Peyton Manning he'd be worth a one or a two. We just need to engage them in talks.
I never knew it was so easy. Cool.
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I'm no expert and I haven't studied these players very closely but my impression is that your analogy is possibly backwards.
Neither player reminds me of Richard Seymour. Fairley appears to be the taller, longer player and actually reminds me very much of Albert Haynesworth.
In the very few video examples that exist of Marcel Dareus he looks to me like a more thickly built, lower-center of gravity player with great initial quickness and leverage…in fact, it was Dareus who immediately reminded me of Warren Sapp (who played undertackle in the Tampa 2 defense but played defensive end while with the Raiders). If Dareus is a Sapp clone, that would be a very good thing. Sapp had over 100 career sacks playing mostly as an interior lineman and would have probably had a great career playing as a defensive end in either scheme.
I think both players have good scheme flexibility and in my mind, they are very close. JMO.
I was saying style and impact, not body type.
I think fairley is very much a penetrating player ala sapp. I think he fits the 4-3 under tackle. To me that puts him in the Kyle Williams role for us.
I think Seymour in the sense that dareus is flexible consistent and low risk but probably not a hall of fame player. I think he sits at the 5 tech, does the dirty work, makes some plays here and there,and can play a lot of d line positions.
I wasnt going off arm length and height and weight, but impact and fit to scheme, kind of how I see their careers playing out in an idealistic fashion... If that makes sense. I don't see fairley being a clogger or setting edges, I don't see dareus on highlight reels every week. Sapp, penetrates, highlight plays. Seymour, consistent, high level, does more dirty work.
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Why not take a CB at #3?
First of all, I think you make the assumption that this one player is going to put the Bills into contention. Not too likely. Otherwise, I don't see why building a foundation of defensive backs and running backs would in any way appeal to a Bills fan.
If it's not your premise that Peterson will become a franchise changing player in year one, and even if it is I guess....... then you've clearly forgotten a lesson that should be ingrained into our subconscious here: if you don't have good big people, your skill players get abused and don't produce.
Peterson, while a big corner, is a skill player. In your head, you probably envision him shutting down Santonio Holmes, Wes Welker and Brandon Marshall. In reality, on this team, the worst run defense in the NFL, he would be primarily a run defender. You want to know why McGee got old so fast? Ask him about his shoulders. Run support wears out corners.
IMO, it is a foolish time for the Bills to use their highest draft pick in 25 years on a defensive back. Foolish. IF they go defense, it should be front 7. Get your run defense and pass rush in order and then you can look at adding players to the SECONDARY.
It's true. Well said. A corner is like a city building luxury condos before they have electricity and water...sometimes you have to have the building blocks before the frills.
Also, his return game is a big part of his hype IMO and we don't see those perks with mckelvin, spiller, parrish, McGee and Jackson....
Parrish has been an all time great NFL punt returner And spiller/mckelvin are all time great NCAA returners....
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A question I have is how many teams drafting in the top five were repeat top five teams. I. E. Detroit picking a WR year after year while not improving their team. So you have to look a little deeper to get an understanding of what positions are valuable at the top. However I agree not to pick a LB with #3. The game is won and lost into trenches.
Ill say it again....
A good 3-4 rush backer plays in the trenches.
I'm I totally out in left field on this?
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His salary is 4 mill. We couldn't sign away another teams 3rd receiver for that money.
He's old and would likely get a 3-4 at best.
If you want that trade I think you are crazy.
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Actually i should say congrats if John is reading here. We hope you have a great year for us.
Obviously the ideal is he keeps progressing and has a great career but even if he has hit his ceiling, why not keep him around? Not like we have better yet. I think this is true of anyone from jon corto to Peyton manning, and mean it as a compliment and a half. He IS an NFL player and that's what comes with the job. Very few can do it, and here he IS doing it. I don't think he will save the franchise, but I doubt that's what he expects either. I don't think there's anything insulting about Most of the comments I've seen regarding his resigning. A few in here were harsh, but I think any NFL player catches some of those. I'd rather get them for my play on the field then my performance on this board::shrug::
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I totally agree.
I like the fact that he is a hometown product but he draws to many senseless penalties at the worst possible times.
I'm a little surprised by the move.
Can always cut him if we find better. Hold him until then...
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Start with the big dogs up front and the LB and DB play will improve. Then load up LB's and the DB play improves all the more. Then look at DB's. What the He'll is so hard to figure out?
That our rushbacker is both a big dog up front AND a linebacker
I'm not saying we must take Quinn but I think he qualifies as a big dog. I also think you don't see guys like 34 rush linebackers go top five because how many top 5 picks have Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, San Diego, dallas, and greenbay etc had recently.... Even teams like Miami and SF... Not many.
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To cut the chase and get past the semantic issues, I'll state the following; it wasn't controversial for a guy like Quentin Coryatt to be drafted as highly as he was. He was an OK player before he started getting hurt, but that's neither here nor there. Hardly any team would even think about spending a #2 pick on a guy like him now. Seattle did, of course, but many questioned it at the time despite the fact that Curry was a complete stud in college. Curry appears to be OK, but he's not doing anything special. I think it'll be a long time before a team drafts a pure LB again (meaning not a guy who is really a small DE).
Agreed wholly. I just think out of context on the board of a team discussing 2 of those linebackers that you now call defensive ends - it seemed to be a misleading post...
To cut the chase and get past the semantic issues, I'll state the following; it wasn't controversial for a guy like Quentin Coryatt to be drafted as highly as he was. He was an OK player before he started getting hurt, but that's neither here nor there. Hardly any team would even think about spending a #2 pick on a guy like him now. Seattle did, of course, but many questioned it at the time despite the fact that Curry was a complete stud in college. Curry appears to be OK, but he's not doing anything special. I think it'll be a long time before a team drafts a pure LB again (meaning not a guy who is really a small DE).
No, we wouldn't be looking for a guy like that at #3. As Sisyphean Bills points out above, the bust potential of tweeners like that is too high, and if you're going to take a one-hand-down pass rusher at #3, if you're interested in job security you take a real, bona fide 275 lb. DE. Not a 242 lb. lb/de who can get around the edge in college ball.
We don't play 43. That 275 lbs rusher is a lb in our defense. See Quinn, Robert. Our defensive ends should be 300 lbs, see dareus or fairley.
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No, Ware is a defensive end.
See my qualification about Derrick Thomas above. He was listed as an LB, but on practically every play, he played on the front line with his hand down.
Right... And we'd be looking for that guy at three, not an ilb is my argument in saying you could list 50 years and 80% would be irrelevant
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Simplicity's sake. While their tasks are obviously different, OLB and MLB tend to have the same body size types, cover the same depth of the field, and are both reliant on good d-lines. There are differences, but relatively speaking, they aren't huge.
You can't begin to argue Demarcus ware and Keith brooking are the same position. Yet alone a 43 inside backer. It's like comparing a TE and a receiver and saying they both catch the ball and throw some blocks
Absolutely. I think the bottom line is that it's wise to focus on having four good players on the front line. Ware doesn't play behind the front line (he's not a line "backer") regardless of what we're told ...
In your analysis he's a linebacker though?
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Great post, and I think you're spot on about the running game. Also, Jimmy Johnson was pretty vocal about his philosophy of focusing on d-line and treating LBs as interchangeable parts. He thought (and probably still thinks) that it's a position of lesser importance.
I agree minus the pass rushing linebacker in a 34-- he is essentially your defensive end that gets the sacks. Demarcus ware isn't interchangeable. Merriman at his peak wasnt interchangeable. Clay Matthews, not interchangeable
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Nice; thanks. That said, if you're going to compare, I'd combine DBs (4 total) because I'm combining LBs (MLBs and OLBs; 3-4 and 4-3 guys).
I guess my question is why combine in the first place for LB?
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Stiff hips just means a guy struggles to transition from his backpedal to pursuit at times. A CB has to do that many times a game.
Yea - essentially try running backwards then rotating your body 180 degrees. Taller guys tend to struggle and lose more speed in the process because the hips don't rotate as well. Even just doing 3 or 4 steps in your house slowly you can feel the pressure in the rotation
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There were only 2 LBs. One is an inside LB (Hawk). The other is an OLB in a 4-3 and really not a DE with his hand off the ground.
The point of looking at the top 5 picks is that these are the awful teams. The teams drafting in the top 5 suck and have a lot of problems. They are usually the teams with coaching changes, legitimate front office purges, etc. The data is pretty clear. These teams go and try and find a franchise QB, a LT to keep the QB from getting destroyed (see the David Carr experience), or a pass rusher to try and kill the other team's QB.
In the modern NFL, teams simply don't look to power football pieces to build their team around (blocking backs, H-backs, TEs, pulling guards and centers just aren't even considered). Even areas where one might suspect that the passing emphasis could have an impact, like WR and CB, simply aren't a point of emphasis either. (Unless your name is Matt Millen, that is, and you're building the perfect 0-16 team.)
Clearly my point was that us going 34 olb could be that pass rusher for us and listing hawk and curry didn't reeeeally apply In the original post. It'd be like including guards with LT or TEs with wide receivers. Unfortunately there aren't that many 3-4 teams picking in the top 5 so you tend not to see that guy go there. Merriman to SD being the closest recent example that I thought of...
In all honesty a guy like Quinn fits that role more then dareus (getting after the qb) but would show up as a LB not a DE....
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Have you seen Peterson play? I have and he reminds me of Whitner. What I mean by that is he cant cover. I don't know how or why this guy is touted as the best thing ever. He is like Michal Jenkins coming out a few years ago, or even Antrell Rolle. I dont see him playing CB very long. He will find a home at S.
PS I dont want an average to below average S at 3 either
Bravo. You should be GM.
I will say I don't want Jenkins at 3 but he is a beast right now. If he keeps progressing expect big things. I would not compare him to whitner or a below average safety. Jenkins was player of the week regularly and you saw how that defense fell apart in Seattle with his injury.
Best 3-4 Defensive Ends
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
I've argued the same, and been told I'm obviously confused. Maybe we can review tape together, as it's silly to say fairley is best at 43 under tackle