birdog1960

i was speaking of election results re objective measures. but for health care i'd point to infant mortality, life expectency, hospital readmission rates etc. the WHO has a scoring system in place already.

exactly. something that he's well aware of and very likely influenced his recent actions a great deal. and doc, surprise, surprise, surprise...we once again fundamentally disagree but in this unlike in so many other arguments here, there will be an objective measure of correct and incorrect.

how bout this? did the recent shutdown have a negative, positive or no effect on perception of the republicans by the electorate, overall? will you all ever learn?

i think the right is certainly not picking up any seats because of it and very well may lose some in the house. so really, what was the point? they must have known they had no chance of stopping or even appreciably altering the aca. it really seems the far right can't look more than a week or two ahead when formulating strategy.

there are huge differences between the two parties. they get bigger and bigger everyday. and while there was at one time a significant diversity of thought in the repub party (when i was a member) there is very little now and getting less every day. i think over the last 30-40 years, dems have actually become less liberal in general. george mcgovern wouldn't have a chance of winning the prez primary now. therefore, the growing divide is almost entirely due to the further and further right the repub party gets. i share almost none of their values. so yup, it's us against them for now and until they see they can't win the elections needed to actually rule til they move towards the center. so far, they've done just the opposite.

if you count every historically dem senate seat, the dems control the senate for ever....psst...you gotta win some dem seats to win a majority. and you all might consider something similar in your stategy to win prez.

um, did you happen to see the results of the nj senate seat? yes, i think they'll have a definite effect. and as we've already discussed, based on your prognostic ability in the '12 prez election, yours might not be the most impartial ad accurate prediction. it's a valid question: where have all the alternative republican health care plans been? how many have ever been included in considered legislation? yes, brilliant strategy. couldn't possibly have come to the same outcome by doing nothing! by not shutting down the govt...by not causing further damage to our global reputation...by not risking and quite possibly injuring our credit rating. you win the prize for pop showdown spin master!

a) will clearly be accomplished. many that will remain uninsured can blame obstruction to medicaid enrollment increases in red states. can't cause the problem and argue against it at the same time (well, you can but that would be disingenuous). b) for many, especially those now insured that weren't before it will definitely be more affordable. over time, with changes to compensation models that are surely coming, it will more affordable to nearly everyone. c) adding 30 million to the insurance rolls costs more but on a per insured basis, costs are likely to decrease, especially in high deductible plans (utilization is already decreasing due to more of these plans). in mass., about 50% of primary care docs are still accepting new medicaid and medicare and they are in the high 90's for percentag eof population insured.. the vast majority of patients looking for docs there can find them. as compensation models start to reward primary care and medical homes selectively there will be more providers. additionally, more team based care will increase the number of patients able to be cared for in each medical home. see, i can be just as optimistic as you are pessimistic. the truth is we haven't had a chance to begin to see outcomes for the aca. neither of us knows. yet, you act like it's a foregone conclusion.

you're serious arent you?

and none of what you outlined significantly lowers the 50 million uninsured number. THAT is the sticking point. the two sides fundamentally differ on their definition of the problem. i'm neither ashamed nor embarrassed. there are plenty of people that i respect greatly that are of the same mind and they're not ashamed either. and much like the environmental issues i referenced, the right sometimes (rarely) talks a good game but rarely acts on such matters. where were these ideas when clinton tried to pass his heathcare reform? where have they been for the past 50 years? who has championed healthcare reform for the right over that time? nobody.

plough wheel is likely better than a plough. small steps...not reinventing the plough because that's not politically possible. hell, altering the plough is hard enough. little steps with continuous improvement. watching fox news for chits and giggles. even they are bending the arc on the tea party...kinda like the blonde bubblehead. smarter than she looks. and juan williams speaking the truth once again.

if you think the current us healthcare system represents a wheel i have some very bent 70 width rims you might be interested in.

nothing. reinventing the wheel is generally a bad idea though. and no, the current us healthcare system isn't a wheel but a plough.

maybe. and maybe the 75-80% (and growing) of the electorate who currently don't subscribe to the will of the tea party will demand the gerrymandering undone.

the one thing i agree on is that this is a stupid funding fight. this fight hits people's wallets and they'll long remember..."it's the economy, stupid"

http://dish.andrewsu...te-republicans/from andrew sullivan, widely regarded as a conservative "there is effectively no republican party anymore. there is a radical movement to remove the modern American state..."

i think i took the quiz and am very surprised by the outcome: minivan moderate. 1 bar away from the median group. perhaps the folks here are outliers compared to the rest of the population...but i've never owned anything remotely resembling a minivan.

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/15/20960588-the-new-american-center-why-our-nation-isnt-as-divided-as-we-think?lite. this is why the republicans are losing in the polls in this fight. and it ain't gonna change by 2014...

agree completely (except that in this case i don't find refreshing a good thing). at the same time, everything in the repub party has shifted one space more conservative. no liberals remain, old moderates = rino's, old conservatives = moderates and conservatives = wacko's.

because people that agree with the far right policies of the minority that is the tea party in congress, actually represent a small minority of the public. there just aren't that many radicals around on either side and these guys are running the plays and deciding the fate of the gov't on these issues up to now. people resent that AND MANY RESENT THE TRADITIONAL REPUBS FOR LETTING THEM GAIN SO MUCH POWER WITHIN THE PARTY (me included). i also think people are beginning to realize that these clowns are almost untouchable due to gerrymandering.

and here's my perspective. the wny chemical industry provided a good life for my family for many years. employees were treated and paid fairly and generally they were good corporate citizens, with one huge exception: pollution. and when the epa and new york state stepped in and appropriately regulated them, they picked up and left for even less green pastures like louisiana, which invited them to have at it as far as polluting. without the regulators stepping in, the river and lakes in wny would likely have been a danger to man and beast for much, much longer and possibly ruined beyond repair. so while i appreciate the absolute need for commerce and industry, i equally see the need for government regulation cuz if they don't do it, no one else will. in healthcare, the pendulum has swung way too far towards industry and commerce and way too far way from public good as a goal. the aca is an effort to slowly shift the tectonic plates under this massive system in this direction. sure, there's been abuse and even fraud in gov't programs but as much or more in private industry. instead of giving up on the concepts (organizations), why not just try to improve them?

you're probably not old enough to remember what lake erie and the niagara river were like in the late 60's and early 70's so here's a summation: they stunk. you might get lucky and fish out a sheepshead or carp (often with deformities) but a trout or salmon wouldn't live a few hours in that water. and who fixed it and why? local gov't or businesses? well, no. the financial incentive was to do just the opposite: loosen environmental laws. nope. it was the bleeding heart liberals and the epa out to save the fish and birds and in the process, possibly some of your wny friends and relatives. plenty more examples available for the other organizations but they probably will go unread, so i'll stop here.

i'll answer your question with one of my own: don't you think it spiteful and selfish to purposely and knowingly refuse insurance for basic care to millions of citizens and to threaten the financial health of the entire world on that one issue? i think the weight of closed memorials (for a few weeks or so we can begin to hope) pales in comparison.

mm hmmm. that character is such an obvious hero figure. we don't need no stinkin cdc. nope. not epa or fda or usda neither. i got all the thoughts i'm needn right here in my head. but we need alot more border control agents. that's for sure. http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/healthtopics/pandemic_preparedness/national_pandemic_preparedness_plans/pages/influenza_pandemic_preparedness_plans.aspx yup, i know these are mostly socialist euro countries wasting their resources on something that will likely never happen...

you think walgreen's is likely to predict the next pandemic? http://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/. think it's unlikely to happen? if so, history doesn't support your contention and it needn't be the flu that's the threat.. is it imminent? who knows...the cdc is the most respected agency in the field and other nations have come to them for help facing similar situations. and no, i'm not a prepper (had to look it up).