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How can you say there is no way for him to see it?

This sums me up pretty well. I am an optimist and I didn't like what I saw yesterday but I am happy for the w. Not super excited like I was after the first 2 games but I am happy the Bills are sitting at 4-3 instead of 3-4. That said there was an awful lot not to like about yesterdays game. I will take an ugly win over a pretty loss any day but I hope to see more going forward.

This post sums up my entire thoughts on the situation. Well done.

Did you miss the post I responded to? The one that included this: Whos the better QB at this point, Ej or Orton? Clearly Orton. Who gives us the better chance to win, EJ or Orton? Clearly Orton. What are we arguing here? Do I think Ortons a long term answer? No. Do I think EJ's a long term answer? No. I was responding to the very last part of the post. I also disagree that we would be 2-5 as the defense played a huge role in both of Orton's win but we will never know that so I don't care to argue that...

Or the lions game where Sammy tipped it to himself.

I'm not sure what we are arguing here because even the people that are "hating" (ops word not mine) Orton most likely agree with almost everything you said. The only thing I can't jump on board with yet is whether not EJ is the long term answer. Orton: quicker release, more accurate, better yardage stats, less points Manuel: more mobility, less turnovers, less sacks, more points It is a pick your poison with both of them. The only thing I will say is we know what Orton is and it is mediocre, this year that might be enough to get it done. We have no idea where Manuel will end up.

I'll play along. The lions scored 7 points on offense. The other 7 were gift wrapped by Orton. The Vikings scored 16 points yesterday. So in Orton's 2 wins the defense has given up 23 points. The defense played out of their minds in the Detroit game and still needed 3 missed fgs for the inept offense to have a chance at the end. I would love to discuss more of my lack of football iq but I need to know where you are coming from to do so. Do you honestly think that it is Kyle Orton winning these games or is the defense?

Except you can clearly see the ref motion it to be St Louis ball before the pile has been completely broken up. At that point it doesn't matter who has the ball when the pile is broken up. The ref must've seen St. Louis in clear possession to make that call and if you look there is also a Ram player right by him that saw the same thing and motioned it to be there ball almost simultaneously. A review would have been impossible to determine anything so I understand why none was called for.

A replay would have been impossible to see who got the ball. As for who emerged from the pile with the ball, that matters little. If St Louis knew that the refs were giving them the ball they won't keep fighting for the ball. The bottom of piles are exceptionally dirty. Once your team has the ball and is granted possession I can see not continuing to fight for it. Special Teams cost the Hawks this game. That punt return was unbelievable - how does the team not know which direction the punter is kicking the ball! The fake punt late in the game was brass balls by Fisher.

Although I am not a "supporter" (he is the QB of the Bills so I am rooting for his success) I agree with everything in this post. Including the excellent conversion on 4th down but mostly with the second paragraph

To the bolded: Absolutely not. Never anywhere. Not on here, not in conversation with my friends, never.

I'm happy to get the w's for sure. I just am not impressed by Orton. I am very happy the Bills are 4-3 right now. I just think that EJ could've led the team to the same 2-1 record. This team is winning because of the defense not because of the QB change. Orton is getting the wins and I won't fault him for that (how could I?). Orton also is showing what I already presumed, that he is very limited and will throw ints. If the team keeps winning I will keep celebrating. I don't see Orton as anything other that a stop gap QB (not that there is anything wrong with that). I can't put him on a pedestal as even a better than average QB. I hate to take this stance because I don't want it to come off as bashing the Bills for Orton playing. I'm not and don't want to. I just hope that either EJ has the light go off or there are other plans for next year than Kyle Orton. HEckas I 've said today as well, I'd be just as happy with Orton lighting it up. I would like to win because of the QB not in spite of him.

17,22, and 17 points. 3 ints and 2 fumbles in 3 games. I can play the stats without supporting facts too. Orton doesn't suck but he ain't great either.

Wow just wow. If this had said EJ haters than Bills fans I would agree with you. Fans?!?! Can you name one person on this board that is a bigger EJ fan than Bills fan bc I can name several people that hate EJ enough to want him to fail rather than see the Bills win with him. Yes Yes Yes. Orton has better passing totals. Takes more sacks and has more turnovers. I really think that EJ could've mustered the 17,22, and 17 points that Orton has put up. A lot of things have gotten worse with Orton taking over including the run game and pass pro. For a veteran who people say can read and diagnose a defense better than EJ I just don't see it. What I do see is a QB who takes more chances. I see one who isn't afraid to let it rip. I don't see better results though. Very happy to be 2-1 over the last few games. Even happier that EJ looks to be trying to learn while sitting. Not convinced Orton is anything other than a stop gap incapable of getting the Bills where we want them to be. I hope he leads them to a winning record, I hope we make the playoffs, then I hope next year the light switch has gone on for EJ or the Bills have a plan for the future. Hell I won't even mind being completely wrong about this and have Orton make a Gannon like resurgence. I just can't say that Orton is the reason the Bills have won or that he has even played well.

I know the conversation "wasn't about one player" but man every time I see him I hope for good things. I want him to score tds in the worst way. Just the idea of you standing in line at taco bell muttering under your breath " Chris Hogan stupid 7-11" is enough to make me smile. Nothing personal I think it has more to do with the fact that Hogan was a much maligned player who has started to produce. After 2 years on the team and much discussion he is starting to contribute. I have seen nobody say anything about him going to the Pro Bowl or being great even. It is partly to bust Kirby's chops and partly because fans of a team enjoy seeing players on their team do well. That catch was huge yesterday as well.

O Line decimation.

Yup me too. I'm ecstatic they won. Well ecstatic is a strong word. I'm happy they won but the team on the field yesterday is a very lucky team. It may be blasphemy at this point but Orton is terrible. Sure he got the w yesterday but he has put up 17,22, and 17 points. The reason these games are won is the defense plain and simple. Orton is pretty much a guarantee to throw a pick every game and the last 2 weeks has added a fumble as well. So that is 5 turnovers in 3 games. That is wretched! This game should have been a blowout and would have been without the turnovers so I won't say Orton can't win. The 2 redzone fumbles are definitely not his fault. That said he is supposedly a veteran that can read and diagnose a defense but somehow the o-line has gotten worse with him behind center. I'm happy for the w but I am nowhere near as excited as I was after starting 2-0. I want to see some sort of life on the offensive side of the ball. My most blasphemous statement is that I think we have the same record with EJ starting the last 3 games as we do with Orton. I'm going to hope that the rust is to blame for Orton turning the ball over so much but this was a game the Bills should have expected to win and done so convincingly. Not one to eke out at literally the last second. Glad they did and I know it is tough to win in this league but I don't know. I just want more.

Yup that was the old heave it and hope for a penalty call I referenced in the other thread. Ridiculously bad call that not surprisingly benefited the Pats*.

I was typing my response so I posted before seeing this but it does indeed go along with what I thought I was seeing. Good Research! To piggyback this, this is why you can't just look at the amount of penalties. 5 yard penalties on first down against the offense are not the same as automatic first down penalties against the defense on 3rd or 4th down.

I absolutely hate them. I hate Brady. He is a whiny little punk. He has benefited tremendously from having one of the best coaches of all time along with playing in a comically bad division for the majority of his career. That said...... This wasn't intentional grounding. There is clearly a receiver in the area. As for the accuracy of the throw that can't be taken into account as he is being hit. It could alter the flight/path/direction of the ball. I was okay with this non call. The PI that was drawn to get them down to the goal line however was absolutely ridiculous. It appears after watching more games of the team than I care to that if everyone is covered, instead of throwing the ball away, Brady will heave a bomb and hope for pass interference. It disgustingly works very well for them. It also is disgustingly brilliant. Just something I noticed...

I have a feeling we will GET some BS calls our way. I smell a blowout here. I'm thinking that the Vikes will turn the ball over a couple of times and the Bills win this something like 31-17. Since both offenses are terrible though I could also see 24-10.

Dude don't you know? EJ has never done anything that shows he could be a starter in this league! You do realize that Orton has had a career before these last 2 weeks right? One where he has a career 58.8 completion percentage, one where he has a career 80.2 QB rating, one where he averages 202.9 yards per game. Also Stafford is a bad comparison to make to me because I am in the opinion that he also isn't very good. A lot of QBs would look as good as he has if they had Calvin Johnson to throw to. In his last 2 games that you referenced guess who wasn't on the field? My original point about the throw Orton made "to win the game" is that nobody knows if that throw would even have been necessary to make. Maybe an EJ led offense scores more than 7 points by that point in time and the throw isn't even necessary. Orton has led the team to 17 and 22 points, while throwing 2 picks and fumbling once. Orton is mediocre at best and hoping at 31 years old that he will have a Gannon like resurgence is more than I am willing to do. EJ is an unknown commodity at this point. I don't even mind the fact that Orton is starting as I think a change needed to be made or the locker room would revolt. I also stated that RIGHT NOW Orton is a better QB. I think EJ still has a chance to end up as a better qb than Orton in the end is all I am saying. I am sick of this Orton got the team to 1-1 and EJ NEVER could have done that. The Chandler throw is very near to the Orton throw with the exception of timing in the game. I am interested to see what will happen if EJ truly does "let it rip" when(if) he gets back out there.

This is what bothers me. We know what Orton is and well it ain't good. We don't know what Manuel is yet. As for the Detroit game that "there is no way Manuel wins because he couldn't hit that throw to Goodwin." Well maybe he doesn't make that terrible throw to Sammy that gets taken to the house. As for this weeks game, maybe he doesn't take that ridiculously bad sack where Orton stared at the guy barreling down on him, maybe he doesn't throw the pick, or fumble when he gets hit. Nobody knows what he would have done. I do know at halftime of the Pats* game I thought to myself Orton has done absolutely nothing in this game that EJ couldn't have. This whole 300 yards passing means squat to me. Orton has had some nice throws and I think RIGHT NOW he is better than EJ. That doesn't mean that EJ couldn't have the same 1-1 record Orton had. In that Detroit game the defense gave up 7 points! EJ is intriguing for the future, Orton is not. Davis is intriguing right now but he had a terrible second half and it will be interesting to see if he can sustain it ala Tony Romo or fizzle like so many others (Cousins is a great example). I am interested to see how EJ is going forward and hope that he does indeed turn into a franchise caliber player. I completely understand the move to Orton though that doesn't mean I really like it.

To piggyback PO'14.... For everyone saying that fixing the sport would be impossible due to the number of people involved you really should check out Tim Donaghy. If he is believed, here is an excerpt from his wiki page: On June 10, 2008, Donaghy's attorney filed a court document alleging, among other things, that Game 6 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals between the Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings was fixed by two referees. The letter states that Donaghy "learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew Referees A and F to be 'company men', always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series."[39] The Lakers won Game 6, attempting 18 more free throws than the Kings in the fourth quarter, and went on to win the 2002 NBA Finals. The teams were not named, but the Western Conference Finals was the only seven-game series that year.[40] The document claimed that Donaghy told federal agents that to increase television ratings and ticket sales, "top executives of the NBA sought to manipulate games using referees".[39] It also said that NBA officials would tell referees to not call technical fouls on certain players, and states that a referee was privately reprimanded by the league for ejecting a star player in the first quarter of a January 2000 game.[39] Stern denied the accusations, calling Donaghy a "singing, cooperating witness".[40] Whether you want to believe him or not, it wouldn't be the first time a major league has been found to be fixing games. Serie A in Italy had a huge scandal in 2006. The point is that fixing these games could be happening. Is it happening? I won't say that. What I will say and what I want all of you to ask yourselves is this; if evidence were to come out tomorrow stating that the league was fixed, on a scale of 1-10 how shocked would you be? If the answer is less than 10 then the NFL has a serious perception problem on their hands. This game won't stay on top forever and it is the small cracks that cause the entire thing to come down. Whether it be the feeling or reality of refs not being 100% honest, player conduct off the field, league saturation/overexposure, player safety, or something else, problems continue to mount for the NFL.