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Running qbs to me always blessed with an advantage of being able to make plays with their feet while they learned how to become pocket passers. Case in point was D McNabb. he came in as a dual threat and then ran less and less as he became a better passer. It helps them learn on the job while also being succesful. Unfortunately RG3 and CK have not been able to do that. They are running less but never quite developed the passing skills to balance that out. As for Cam I am willing to throw this whole year out for him. His line is terrible, he missed all of the offseason with an ankle injury, he only has Benjamin and Olsen to throw to, and no running game at all. He also is a much better passer to me but he still has a lot to learn especially when it comes to touch on his throws. As an aside.... It also drives me crazy that College and the Pros use 2 different balls. What is the point? Why not just have one ball. It would help qbs especially get an early jump on learning how to throw the longer, skinnier ball. The Big 10 is not nearly what it once was. Brady and Brees come from a completely different era of Big 10 ball and Wilson spent the majority of his time in the ACC. Currently starting from the Big 10 in the NFL: Drew Stanton - backup forced in by injury Orton - drafted in 2005 Hoyer - about to lose his job Brady - drafted in 2000 Brees drafted in 01 R WIlson - he is an ACC qb in my mind. Not exactly a whos who of recent success. Brees and Brady are 13 and 14 year vets. The others are back end of the league talent.

The line was definitely at fault there... The guy that was double teamed made the tackle! He shed the double team like it was no big deal and got Boobie before he even had a chance.

2 1-10 teams in the AFC and the atrocious NFC South have helped to make this happen. Unfortunately the Bills only get a slight benefit of playing the 1-10 Raiders. The Browns on the other hand.... I have posted it a couple of other times but want as many eyes on it as possible. The Browns have played the 15th hardest schedule in the AFC and the 30th hardest in the NFL. The fact that they are 7-4 is fools gold. They lost to Jacksonville! People have posted how the Bills have only beaten up on bad teams and lost to the good ones, the Browns have played 4 games against teams with winning records and they were all interdivision games! They have played the 1-10 Raiders, the 1-10 Jags, the 2-9 Bucs, the 2-9 Titans, etc.... 7 games against teams with losing records and 4 of them are against the 4 worst teams in football. The Bills meanwhile have played the 3rd hardest schedule in the AFC and 7th hardest in the NFL to date and are 1 game back of the Browns. I am rooting for Indy in this game. I want them to run away with the division. It would give them wins over the Browns and Texans in the next few weeks and maybe even put them in a position to battle for homefield advantage.

Not to turn this into a Marrone thread but..... This is exactly what I have been talking about when defending him. Everyone wants to talk about how talented the defense is and it is. Nobody wants to admit how glaring the holes are on the offensive side of the ball. He is just supposed to "coach them up" because he is an offensive coach. Get him some talent and he will turn into a good coach . Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys - 36 wins in his last 3 years there - 2 sb championships Jimmy Johnson with the Dolphins - 36 wins in his 4 years there - not even an AFC championship game appearance Mike Shanahan with John Elway in Denver - 2 sb wins - 47 wins in 4 years Mike Shanahan without J. Elway in Denver - 1 season out of 10 that matched the wins with Elway in a season, 0 sb appearances, 1 AFC Championship game appearance I can keep going but I think my point is clear....

Me too. From this article: Offensive tackle Seantrel Henderson said. "And hey, we fight. That's what we do. Coach Marrone always preaches that we're still in the race. We can still win out. We can beat anybody in the NFL. We all believe that. We rallied around coach Marrone and the whole coaching staff, and we're just going to keep riding this thing out. That's what we're going to do." "We stuck together, really," wide receiver Mike Williams said. After the game, Marrone was asked whether the win, after the week the Bills and Western New York had, was one of his finest moments in his 27-game, NFL head coaching career. "Hopefully not," he said bluntly. But to date, it has to be up there, right? "You guys know how I am," Marrone quipped. "I've got zero personality. I'm already looking toward next week. We have to get in and get this done. ... I like him and think that Bills fans are unnecessarily taking out frustrations from people before him. He has this team playing tough hard nosed football. He has this team competing in every single game. He has matched the win total from each of the last 4 years in 11 games. He is doing a good job.

What a punt block that was. Boobie played the game of his life on Monday. Ran the ball hard on offense and owned that poor blocker on the punt block.

Alright lets have a conversation! Oh nevermind.... As many have pointed out through the thread many coaches make these same decisions. Why is that? Even though statistics say you have a better than 50% chance of making it? Simply because if you don't make it, it is a huge blow to your team. You are putting your defense at a disadvantage, you are giving the offense a short field, it is deflating to the team and that is just in game. Then you have to listen to bunch of media and fan question why you made the choice. Every decision a coach makes is the right one or the wrong one purely on results. People wouldn't care about the punt in the Miami game with 9:55 on the clock if the defense forced a 3 and out. They gave up a long scoring drive and Marrone is an idiot. The team goes for it on 4th and 10 against the Chiefs, if they score a td Marrone is a genius, they didn't and he is an idiot. The reason it is so frustrating to many is they get the benefit of hindsight and no consequences to their decision. If you disagree and want the coach to go for it and he punts, there is no way to know whether it was the right call or not. You will never know if they would have gotten it. If the defense then goes on to give up a long drive it doesn't mean they should have gone for it, it means the decision didn't work out as planned. It doesn't make it the wrong decision. If they go for it and get it, it is the right choice. If they go for it and don't get it, it is the wrong choice. That is how many fans view it and that just isn't true.

Remember when Rex owned the Bills? When they would just punch them in the mouth? Not under Marrone!

I think most people that are being honest with themselves thought the same thing in regards to the win total. Somehow though that will not be enough anymore to save Marrone's job. I wouldn't mind Hackett coming back again but I also wouldn't mind him being shown the door. I hope that the Bills have seen the success a former hc can give you in a coordinator position and bring one on if they do indeed fire Hackett. This team is close imo. 3 glaring areas all on the offensive side of the ball; both guards, te, and most importantly qb. If they can improve those areas next year without taking a hit at any of their current strengths I would expect more next year.

Wait... where are they.... Oh your wife holds onto them?

To me it was the sack Mario had on Vick where he threw him to the ground like a kid! Poor Vick lol I was hoping to add more to the Marrone thread from yesterday Then I came to the wall this morning and saw the Sammy thread That game yesterday was surreal. It was like watching the early 90s teams when the game was never in doubt. Not once did I even think for a second the Jets would mount a comeback. Orton played very well, Woods had the game of his life, Boobie was a man possessed, and the defense, oh man the defense. I guess Marrone was a good coach yesterday

I said it yesterday and I will say it again today.... Where in the world do Bills fans get this sense of entitlement? A win is a win but and 38-3 I'll take it but?!?!?!!?!?! Are you serious? The Bills lost a home game, played a division rival with short rest, and blew their doors off. You want to complain about how they got 38 points?!?!?! Did it not happen how you wanted it to?!?!?! They ran a lot of successful plays last night and there is zero to B word about. You know what else a #1 WR does for a team? Open up other players to be successful. That is what happened last night. The Jets were so concerned with stopping Sammy they failed at pretty much every other aspect of the game. The Jets were succesful doing what they wanted to do and they lost 38-3! They were awful successful last night as well without doing it. Are you saying they should have forced the ball to him even though it wasn't there and avoid open players to do so? I don't think you are but that is what it sounds like....

Just going to drop this here as I think it sums up nicely what I have been trying to say. Watch other games and you will see many of the same issues if not worse problems when watching other teams. Nobody in football, players or coaches, are perfect.

This is exactly what I am saying in the Marron sympathy thread. Too many people don't get to see the other teams/coaches and the mistakes they make.

Oh boy. Perhaps you missed the stat I posted earlier of them having the 15th hardest Strength of schedule in the conference and 30th in league compared to the 3rd hardest in the conference and 7th hardest in the league for the Bills?!?! Certainly they look much better. How many Browns games have you watched this year? Did you catch the game against the powerhouse that is the Jags? Or are you purely looking at records ignoring the fact that they get to play the NFC South which is atrocious this year? The Browns have 1 win against teams with a winning record. As I posted earlier they have only played 4 games all year against teams with a winning record! They lost to the JAGS! The 1 and 10 JAGS, they lost 23-7 to the Texans and Ryan Mallett, but yes they look much better . Not even close to what I'm saying. Improve the O-line and get a quality qb is what I am saying. The rb situation is what it is and I think Whaley actually did a very good job protecting against the worst case scenario that the injuries to Fred and CJ was. The talent on the offensive side of the ball is bottom of the league quality and the stats that you lean on reflect that. So Chan gets the excuse of DC but Marrone gets no benefit for his OC? Am I reading this correctly? Also do you think that Marrone is not playing to win? C'mon man...

I'm not sure what you living in GA has to do with watching a lot of games but no worries if you watch other games great I will take that at face value. My experience living in CNY is completely different in regards to the perceived talent on this team. This is coming from a lot of non Bills fans forced to watch Bills games as they are the 1 o'clock game. I have addressed the talent gaps many times in this thread and just did so a minute ago. I did see the stats. I think they are directly related to the rb, oline, and qb talent being bottom of the league bad. Do you care to state that Bryce and Boobie are a top of the league tandem? Perhaps that Urbik and Pears are top of the league Guards? Or the Kyle Orton is anything but bottom of the league QB? The all 22s routinely show plays that are left on the field by Orton. Is that the coaches or players? What about all of the missed opportunities in the final KC drive? Is that the coaches or players? If the Bills win that game and are 6-4 does that magically make Marrone a better coach? If the PI that should have been called in the Texans game leads to a win does that make Marrone a better coach? Is Tom Coughlin a bad coach bc his team is 3-8? Is Jason Garrett all of a sudden a good coach because the Cowboys are finally playing well?

As has been brought up by Big Cat and I..... We are looking at the talent on this team. Namely Kyle Freaking Orton. His play has been atrocious. Oh look he passed for 300 yards - yeah so did Zach Mettenberger. His play against KC at the end of the game was pathetic. He missed multiple open receivers but I guess that is on the coaches? How about the o-line. Where do they rank again? How about Freddie and CJ? Oh wait we are playing 1 rb who was st ace last year and another who wasn't active half the year. Look at the talent on this team!

YES!!!! We are so close and yet some people want to blow it up because it is happening right now. Even though it may be happening right now lol.

As a general question, how many other games do you watch in a week? Mis-managing game situations is directly correlated to results. Nobody gets mad at a coach for going for it on 4th down if they make it. That Miami game, punting with 10 minutes on the clock, would have been the right decision if the defense forced a 3 and out. The NFL has fans that over react to each game and each week. Talk to your friends that aren't Bills fans. Ask them what they think of the talent on the team. The answer will probably not be "they are stacked, if only they had a better coach" the answer will most likely be along the lines of "Watkins is pretty good and that d-line is scary but I don't know much about the rest of the team." Outside of Bills fans people don't think it is the coach holding them back. In my experience most of them think the team in general is middling (which I agree with)

Yup I have no idea where people got this idea that the team is uber talented. They are still deficient at the most important position in SPORTS.

Well he only has 3 questionable calls in his wiki and they seem to not have a consistent theme to them like Coleman's crew if that means anything.

2 teams begging to be beat?!?!? You mean the KC team that went out and beat the reigning SB Champs the very next week?!?!? The same KC team that was in the playoffs last year? Or the Miami team who played the AFC SB representative to a fg? The same Miami team that beat the Pats* this year? Road teams are 4-8 this year on Thursday night football. Please don't give me that BS. Just because you wanted them to win doesn't mean they were easy games to win. Using the current seasons records the Bills have played the 3rd toughest schedule in the AFC and the 7th toughest in the NFL. To be 5-5 at this point is nothing to sneeze at. Put it in perspective. The darling Browns who people want to rave about have played the 15th easiest in the conference and 30th overall. Do you think the Bills might look better if they played that schedule? As it is I think they are doing quite well. I want edit this as well: With all the talen they brought in? Preseason EVERY prognosticator, including many on this board, bemoaned the loss of Kiko and Byrd. Most thought that the off season additions were a net loss. To your bolded I agree. That said the o-line, qb, and rb situation do not lend themselves to this. The style of ball the Bills are playing is the style necessary when your team doesn't have the same talent as other teams and this team doesn't. Players on this team are routinely overvalued by fans. The receiving corps while good is not in the top echelon as many say, the o-line is bottom tier, the rbs are 3rd/4th string, the qb is a career backup and .500 starter, the lb corp is missing it's best player. All teams have holes but that is a lot of holes to cover up. IMO the Bills are doing a good job of doing just that and that is why they have to play the style they do. The losses aren't concerning to me. They suck but losing to a playoff team from last year and losing on the road on a short week to a division rival are things that happen to every team. Freak snow storms costing home games and practice time aren't so I will be interested to see how the team responds.

Okay so as each week and game was about to be played what did you expect? Did you expect them to beat DET or CHI? Did you expect them to lose to KC, SD? What game before it started did not go the way you expected it to? I am with you on benching EJ as I don't really care for it but the results are not in. We don't know if this is extremely benficial for EJ to sit and learn. We don't know if EJ was benched to stop a locker room mutiny. There is a lot about the switch that we don't know. Maybe we are 5-5 with developing EJ just not the way you want it. I agree that Hackett will most likely will be shown the door. However this could very well be a Crossman situation. The Bills need to improve their o-line considerably and as with any other team they will only be as succesful as their QB. Orton sucks to me. The all 22's seem to show a lot of open players (which would speak to proper play calling/design) that are being missed (which would speak to poor play/execution). So if 8-8 is acceptable to you why are you banging the drum for Marrone to be fired when that goal is well within reach?

He took a bunch of scrubs and made them productive to what end? It certainly wasn't in the win column. It certainly wasn't in the offensive or defensive rankings. Was it because CJ had 1 good year and Stevie had 3 (barely) 1000 yard seasons (which is a whopping 60 yards a game)?