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Most wanted him to start on November 28th? Are you serious? That is 5 days after he was claimed by the Chiefs! This is why you think I'm slanting facts?!?! What does what the fans want have anything to do with Orton's performance? If you are going to credit him for these wins and claim he was a big part of it when leading the team to 13 ppg while starting then we are going to have to agree to disagree here. However if you are going to do that you can't complain about the current offenses performance because they are averaging more than 20 ppg. I still don't get what you are driving at though. In a different conversation with a different poster I left off 3 games to slant facts? You still haven't stated what facts I am slanting. He didn't come into KC and set the world on fire. He went into KC and played very similarly to what we are seeing now. Yes it was. Starting EJ, Thad, and Tuel. That is a project, a third stringer, and a practice squad player. Do you want to rank them any higher than Orton's 19-23? If not doesn't that go hand in hand with what I have been saying. Let me put it even more simply: Have you ever heard the phrase that QB is the most important position in sports? If so why do you think that is a common held belief? An offense's success or lack of pretty closely correlates with the talent at the qb position period.

I'm in the same boat. How can the guy who has led the team to the first non-losing season in 10 years even be in jeopardy. Any time I mention to people that there are some Bills fans who want him fired they are blown away by it. Forget accepting mediocrity this has to do with Marrone restoring respectability. At the beginning of the year there was a conversation on SVP and Rucillo (sp?) where they discussed who was worse off Oakland or Buffalo. SVP went on a long rant that it was Buffalo. 16 weeks later do you think that opinion has changed as one teams sits at 8-6 and the other at 2-12? Broadcasters were picking the Bills to win a game last week against the best team in the NFL. When was the last time that happened? Buffalo is no longer the game teams circle on their calendar as an easy win. I can't believe people want to replace the driving force behind that! I feel like I am going to have a NDBUFFCUSEfan style meltdown when discussing it .

I stopped reading. :nana: I have a different memory of Orton. I remember thinking he actually got a raw deal in Chicago. He outplayed Grossman and should have been starting over him. In Denver I remember him being terrible. (these are just my memories and admittedly it is a bit hazy). I just see a guy who doesn't look like he cares as much as we want him to. I referenced in the shout box the other day that he is Jay Cutler lite. Same attitude less arm talent. I think missing tc hurt him badly both from a conditioning aspect and a timing with his receivers aspect. I think he has taken a beating that he hasn't in a while and is 31 and it is harder to recover from. He only played in 13 games in the last 3 years and has now played 10 games in 11 weeks. There is a lot going into his performance slipping but to me coaching is waaaaayyyy down the list of things I think might be causing it.

Holy cow all of this is just false. Matt Cassell was the starting qb for the Chiefs. He got hurt against the Broncos November 13th at which point Palko took over. Orton joined the team on November 23rd. The coach (Todd Haley) got fired after the December 11th game (3 weeks later). You seriously think that it was because he didn't start the guy who they had just claimed?!?! I still don't get how this somehow validates Orton. He led the Chiefs offense to 19, 13, and 7 points in that order. So he regressed there as well (heavy sarcasm). He didn't come in and do magical things with the Chiefs he came in and did exactly what Kyle Orton does - plays mediocre. As for the rest of your post I actually agree with you. The margin of error is very small but that is, to me, in large part, because of Orton's lack of consistency, accuracy, and performance. He isn't the worst qb in the world. I believe yesterday we settled on somewhere between 19 and 22nd best in the league. Unsurprisingly the Bills offense is 23rd in ypg, 19th in passing ypg, and 18th in ppg. Right what you would expect.

Fantasy football semi finals in 2 leagues. So yeah money on the line is about the only reason lol.

Here I did it for the lazy. Stanford drafted players FSU Drafted Players Jameis has a very small window of which to draw from being as it is just last year. He had 1 first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 3rd rounder, 2 4th rounders, and a 5th rounder. Since entering the league 3 drafts ago Stanford (outside of Luck) has had 1 first rounder, 4 2nd rounders, 0 3rd rounders, 2 4th rounders, 3 5th rounders, 1 6th rounder, and 1 7th rounder. So for those of you playing at home.... In 2 more years Stanford has produced the same number of 1st rounders, 2 more second rounders, 1 less 3rd rounder, same 4th rounders, 2 more 5th rounders, 1 more 6th rounder, and 1 more 7th rounder. I don't think your argument is holding up skycap...

Luckily with Orton I don't need to slant the facts. Bad stretches are the norm for Orton. Also the Chiefs won 4 out of 6 before Orton started playing what free fall are you talking about? He led the team to 19, 13, and 7 points it's not like he came in and set the world on fire for them. The reason I posted what I did earlier is beacuse I thought they correlated with what Kelly and I were discussing. Him falling off a cliff isn't unheard of and what we are seeing this year is him playing to his abilities or even slightly above them. Like I said this isn't bad Kyle Orton this is just Kyle Orton we are watching.

Last night at the end of the MNF game Tirico and Gruden started talking about how good the Bills defense is. It was surreal seeing positive Bills news that organically happened. It wasn't highlights of the game or a show where they talk about all of the teams. It was just them talking football and how good that defense was.

What happened before week 11 in 2008? He averaged 222 ypg passing with 10 tds and 4 ints. 2010? That might be his best year as a pro (remember I said this was shaping up to be his second best?) and he had a robust 58.8 completion % while throwing 20 tds to 9 ints. The teams record? 3-11 before he got benched for Tebow. End of 2011? after getting dumped by the Broncos he was signed by the Chiefs where he threw 1 td to 2 ints in 3 games. He led the team to 19,16, and 7 points respectively in those games. Now that I have filled you in on what happened what was the point of you asking?

Heisman is very meaningless when it comes to NFL success. Chris Weinke, Eric Crouch, Jason White, Matt Leinhart, and Troy Smith are all recent QBs who won the Heisman and did less than nothing in the NFL. All the hype for JFF and Tebow comes from college success. Where is the Tebow hype now? The eight Heisman winners who went on to have Hall of Fame NFL careers: Doak Walker, Paul Hornung, Roger Staubach, O.J. Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Earl Campbell, Marcus Allen and Barry Sanders. 1 QB in the whole list. It might actually be the kiss of death for a qb to win it!

What I guess I am not understanding boils down to this right here. IF and that's a big if it is that he is "shackled" how does that effect him missing on several throws. The short pass to Freddy and the one linked above behind Woods are 2 perfect examples of throws that he just plain missed. How does being shackled lead to those misses? If he is coached to take the safe play and those are 2 very safe plays how is it coaching that is causing him to miss them?

I didn't mention his completion %. The number I listed was his quarterback rating. I just am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the idea that he is playing scared because the coaches are telling him to be so safe with the ball. It makes much more sense to me that he either is scared because of the hits he has taken or just isn't that interested in playing football for anything more than money. Both of those are much easier to believe to me than him being "neutered" by the coaching staff. At 10 years in the league what would he be scared of? Marrone already stated that he isn't in danger of being benched. Is he afraid they will yell at him on the sideline?

I just don't get where you are getting this from that he has never been this bad. I brought up previously in this thread that statistically this is about his 2nd best year of his career stat wise. Some things from Orton's wiki: 2005: Orton finished with the lowest quarterback rating in the NFL (59.7) among all "qualified" quarterbacks. Despite the low rating, the Bears coaches repeatedly insisted that they were pleased with Orton's performance. The coaching staff asked Orton to minimize mistakes and to let the rushing attack and the defense win ballgames rather than employing an aggressive passing attack. 2008: From week 11 on Orton threw eight touchdowns, and eight interceptions while averaging a quarterback rating of 66.9, including ratings of 39.1 against Minnesota, 49.2 against New Orleans, and 48.7 against Green Bay. 2011: Orton entered the 2011 season as the Broncos starting quarterback. The team had a 1–4 start with Orton throwing 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions as the starter, accumulating 979 yards and completing 58.7% of his passes He was deemed not good enough by the Bears and replaced. He was deemed not good enough by the Broncos and replaced. The highest qb rating of his career was 87.5 he currently sits at 86.7. What you are seeing is not a ruined or bad Kyle Orton what you are seeing is Kyle Orton being Kyle Orton and actually a better than normal Kyle Orton. Where do you get this idea that "he has never been this bad?"

I didn't notice that but after watching it again he is open as is Fred on a route out of the backfield. So he had 3 out of 5 options very open on that play and threw an incomplete pass. Like I said plays like these make me question the players and not Hackett and his much maligned scheme.

Wayne that second play is a perfect example of there being a play to be made and the qb not making it. Woods was wide open with room to run and easily would have gotten the first down and maybe more. That has to be one of the easier throws to make as well. So frustrating to watch.

I put it elsewhere but this is completely overblown. Hughes normally plays 70% of the snaps. He missed that mark by 7.5 snaps. Very few people are heralding him as coty. Hell I probably am one of his biggest defenders and I won't even mention him in that conversation. That award is Bruce Arian's alone. We can start talking culture change now seeing as the team has its first non losing season in 10 years!

Spikes is not getting his credit imo. His fire and borderline recklessness has been the true spark to me on that defense. He brought a serious attitude. I know he has limitations as a player but I hope he comes back next year. Bradham, Brown, Kiko, and Spikes would be fantastic depth and skill at the lb position.

I thought he was short too but in fact the yellow first down marker was off by a yard. They only needed to get to the 20 and not the 19 like the line indicated. It was weird because they left it there after the penalty too. He did indeed have the first down when he went down though.

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah I mentioned a while ago that the Williams disappearance correlated directly with the EJ benching. I thought maybe there was something to it but now I am also just guessing lol.

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that. If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list: Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year. Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see. I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

Yeah he and Freddy deserve it. He almost got choked up talking about "I've been on other teams" and then trailing off. Love that they are playing for each other and the results are evident on the field.

I actually think it colors a lot of people's opinion of him. People get mad when he doesn't explain every detail or situation and what is going on or why the decision was made as it was. It then leads to wild speculation such as the M Williams, Urbik, or Mario injury situations.

Well this was in the post you quoted: I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching. My argument is that sometimes people are prisoners of what they see without comparison. Of course the 22nd rated offense could use improvement. My question is where does that improvement need to happen. I listed examples of "great offensive minds" that are hamstrung by lack of talent. I also listed talent that elevates what we think of the coaching (NE Coordinators is a perfect example of this). The point is we don't really know what we have in regards to coaching because the talent is not there. Of the 4 qbs that Hackett has had to work with would you rank any of them above the 22nd best starting qb? It is the rare case (Philly being the only one) that a coach can boost the talent he has to a top unit without much of the talent being top level.

Does crow really taste that bad?