Ronin

That's putting the cart before the horse a little bit. The problem is the FO, not the players, or in this case, Manuel. Manuel didn't draft himself, the FO did. With Marrone's help obviously since Manuel was "Marrone's guy." It was the FO and Brandon that selected Marrone who in turn had to have Manuel because "he was his guy." Well that's all fine and dandy, but when Manuel plays like he has with the team having to strip the playbook down for purposes of extreme simplicity, on top of Manuel's other issues, the least of which is hardly his inaccuracy issues, then one has to question that choice, ... Marrone that is. Here's the problem, the team now faces a QB rich Draft, but one immediately after they just "drafted their guy." Well, if Maneul's not their guy, why should anyone from media to fan put another shred of confidence into Marrone & Co.? There is no reason if his single biggest read this far, among many others we should add, has failed. The short answer is that there is no reason to have confidence in Marrone at this point, and clearly the FO ain't gettin' the job done. It'll spin its Whaley's now in charge wheels until it becomes apparent that he too is simply just another stooge and crony in this organization. This team, from the top levels on down simply doesn't know what it's doing. When its single biggest marketing gig every year is to threaten that the team will move if enough tickets don't sell, even if only implicitly, then that's just a really bad indication. Nothing will change until Ralph kicks off. At that point we'll see if the new owner hires a competent FO or not, if the team's even still around. Anyway, it's pretty clear that the team whiffed on Manuel who's playing more like a late 2nd (at best) or 3rd round prospect at this point, meaning that the assessment of anyone that said that the team reached on Manuel was the correct one. Unfortunately that preempts them from taking advantage of this forthcoming QB-rich Draft if they want to avoid looking like the bunch of retards that they are. As they say, it's better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than it is to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. But the reality is that this is a bit of a catch-22 for the team given that the best thing to do would in fact be to draft a QB this year in round 1 or 2, but by doing so they prove how wrong they were in their very pivotal initial season in terms of their biggest decisions. So do they A, admit defeat, stupidity, and/or perhaps idiocy and therefore their mistake on taking Manuel so early in last year's Draft, or do they continue to attempt to whitewash it and cover it up? I think we all know the answer to that deep down. Marrone is clearly an OJT coach, so we're already looking at his replacement after the '15 season now. At best the 2014 season will be another rebuilding season therefore making it what this season should have been under Marrone, at best. But then we have to hope that something has changed to make him a competent NFL coach otherwise, and I don't think that one season of OJT can have or will have done that. But hey, once again the first six or seven games next year will sell out, so this is working for Brandon & Co.

A longshot? How long do you expect him to play? Doesn't sound as if you're even remotely aware of the longetivity of RBs. Many of the best ever never even played at 32. A small part of it may be "mileage," but the bigger part is simply age. FJ's YPC have dropped significantly. Yes, the rush O is top-5 ... in yardage. In YPA it's ranked 17th mostly because of a handful of Spiller runs, not because of FJ.

Spiller's a role-playing RB and always has been. Last season was an anomally, anyone expecting more like it is merely fooling themself. FJ's the only 3-down RB on the roster. Having said that, he's 33 next season and it's remarkable that he performed the way he has at 32. The dropoff in his performance at 33 next season should be notable. Check out some of the greats and how they ran, relative to their prior years, at 33. Many didn't even play after 32.

I wouldn't take $15-20 to go to the game, it doesn't even cover parking. They'd have to pay me at least twice that to get me to budge. Anyone will be able to get tix for $5 if not free outside of the stadium at game time. Seriously. Probably get club level seats for $20.

Meanwhile, we'll let the depth of the QB class slip through our fingers this year. Why? Because EJ was their guy. They knew better than everyone. If the Bills org were a used car lot then they'd be among the most successful used car lots ever. That's just one more scarlet letter that should be sewn into the walls at OBD.

The reason why Sully's not popular here is because he speaks the truth. People here don't like the truth. Many at least. That said, the truth will have sunk in when people start realizing that the cancer of this organization starts from the head and works its way down. The only way to relieve it is to sever the head. The head has refused to do so, so now we're all on death watch to see what the outcome after that is and to see if Mr. "I want the team to be in Buffalo"'s lies ever catch up to him. The team mails their offseason's in too for the most part. He realizes the gap between truth and what readers want to hear. Most fans would rather have a nice fat pudding pop to suck on than the truth.

You're about a decade too late. I'm not sure that Wilson can count how many fingers he has right now. IMO it's all about him and he knows that the team will be sold once he kicks. Think about it, he'll have a legacy as the Buffalo Bills sole owner if that happens. Either way, I agree, but it should have been done years ago. Prolly a day late and a dollar short now.

LOL You serious? One would think that there would be a minimum criteria for people posting. Apparently not. LOL

But, but, but ... Marrone turned around SU's program. He must be good.

From the article: He sought the advice of White House press secretary Pierre Salinger, who had been a classmate of Rozelle's at the University of San Francisco. Salinger said the president had been a huge football fan and would have wanted the games to be played because "it would contribute to the country returning to a sense of normalcy." Rozelle was reminded of how Major League Baseball Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis contacted Franklin Roosevelt in the early stages of World War II to inquire whether it would be appropriate to keep playing the games. FDR told him to keep playing because the games would boost morale stateside and among U.S. combat troops around the globe. It's interesting how often the wishes of the deceased are overlooked in favor of what everyone else wants. That's a valid argument although as with most else in emotional matters, debatable. Nevertheless, it would seem that the straight shock of it all to the population was cause enough to cancel or postpone the game. It might be a nice article about Wilson, but I wish he'd have had a fraction of that integrity regarding treating us as fans and customers of his near billion dollar business in terms of being straight with us about keeping the team in Buffalo. Ralph Wilson is dead to me. The sooner that the team is sold the better for us as Bills fans. I detest liars.

By the way, this is the classic type of thread start that shows that many people only sees what they want to see and they discount what they don't want to see.

You talk like you haven't seen FSU play. As to SU, they have a pair of freshman QBs, and despite your criticism of the FSU game, they're allowing fewer points, with a tougher schedule, in a tougher conference this year, than Marrone did last season or any season except one that he was there, with a notably better QB. On top of that, SU has lost two of their five losses to teams ranked in the top 10. I can't believe that you're using the FSU game to make that point. FSU has destroyed everyone, this might be the best team that they've ever had. It might very well be better than Bowden's championship teams. If any team has a legitimate chance to knock off Alabama it's FSU. Talk about embellishing.

LOL You've pretty much got it, all the good that came from this Draft, and might as well throw in the last several since Whaley's been here as Asst. GM or head of personnel or whatever he was, can be attributed to Whaley. All the bad, Nix. You see how it works. Let's not forget, Brandon's a marketer. But he's pretty much getting what he wants, ticket sales. Seems like a lot of fans don't care about winning, they just want to see men run up and down the field regardless of whether or not there's competent team play or not. I'm not one of them.

Everyone that's been following this team since their '90s Polian-era success knows, unless they're blind, that the front office on this team sucks. It's built around friends and familiar faces instead of people that have been proven to get the job done. Your initial post is correct, but when we have a front office that hires people like Marrone, who then in turn hires coordinators like Hackett (a familiar friendly face) along w/ others from SU, and Pettine, who turned the Jets D from a 1st ranked scoring D into a 20th one, now having us, with better talent than the Jets had last season arguably, a 24th ranked scoring D, then it's a problem. On top of that when Marrone then "has to have his guy" Manuel and after Manuel plays like he has, then it's clearly indicative of poor decisions all the way around, which then naturally and logically lead to questioning whether or not Marrone & Co. actually know what they're doing. Again, anyone that's been following this team knows that the front office needs a complete house cleaning, but who's going to do that? Brandon? Please. Wilson's got one foot in the can and I can only imagine that he's running at a fraction of full mental clarity. So nothing's going to change until he kicks. In the meantime, the cat's out of the bag on this ridiculous notion that Wilson did whatever he could to keep the team in Buffalo, which makes him a liar. So in essence we're sitting here waiting for Wilson to croak, and then to see who buys the team and what their intentions and pre-purchase arrangements are/were just to see if we'll still have a team at that point. If we do, if the new owners don't get rid of the front office wholesale, then we're in for more of the same. Once again, in 34 seasons not directly influenced by Polian the Bills have made the playoffs in only 7 seasons, of 36 now counting this season already, so that's making the playoffs less than 20% of the time. In those 7 playoff seasons, besides 4 having been with residual Polian talent, we've won only two playoff games. So in essence, when Polian hasn't been here, we've won 2 playoff games in 36 other seasons. Two (2), in 36 seasons otherwise! Is there a more futile franchise? Wilson has clearly had a hand, particularly "back when." It's beyond the pale to consider that Wilson then fired Polian in the middle of a Super Bowl appearance streak. I mean who TF does that? Hopefully the new owner(s), first of all keep the team here, but second of all have the sense that God gave a retarded monkey to clean house in the front office and hire some people that can get the job done. In the meantime, expecting things to change fits right in with the anecdotal definition for insanity, doing the same thing(s) over and over and expecting different results. Teams absolutely need a good QB in this modern era of passing favoritized NFL rules, but right now Manuel is already starting to look like another swing and a miss. 2 playoff wins in 36 non-Polian seasons.

That's the problem with this organization though, instead of waiting for a Draft like this one coming up to grab a QB, they pin themselves into a corner to where they are in a position to all but have to draft a player in a certain position in a draft that features a dearth of players at that position, like last year. Instead of Brandon then putting his marketing skills and sense to use, drafting a player in a positon that's much stronger for that position, this organization forces a square peg into a round hole, all but eliminates themselves from contention of drafting a QB this year, and forces the issue, all the while trying to convince themselves that they had to have a QB, in this case Manuel. Well that's all fine and dandy, but then when it doesn't work out you've left yourself few options and have essentially gone all-in on , in this case, Manuel. Is that wise? I don't think so. Seems to me that in the case of a team like the Bills where you pretty much have a blank slate with only a handful of players penned in, that you've got quite a bit of lattitude for a two-year rebuild. Take your QB the next season and build other parts of it. But that's not the way that we do things in Buffalo, soundly that is. Here we are reactionary and go on knee-jerk reactions and then create the marketing for them after the fact and ignore any facts that aren't convenient for us to BILL-ieve. Will that approach change? Why should or will it? The same people have been running things for years. Anyone thinking that Whaley is any different from the Donahoe management tree is merely deluding themselves. Manuel's got 6 more games to start showing some improvement, but there's no reason to think that it's going to happen given his track record thus far. If he were going to justify the team's faith in him in drafting him so early, then he wouldn't be working on things like accuracy, footwork, and working on reads after his primary option right now. It's naive to think that Whaley had nothing to do with the decision since they clearly knew that it would rest on his tenure. Also, we keep hearing about what a modern GM wonder boy Whaley is, but on the one hand we are to understand that all of the positive decisions for this team since he's been with it have to do with him, but then things like hiring Marrone and the selecting of Manuel he has absolutely no hand in? Does that really make any sense to anyone? We can say that he's only been a wallflower for three/four years, but then let's not insist that there's any basis for making him out to be something that he's not even come close to proving yet, or, we can contrarily say that he's been in on the decision making and therefore takes at least some responsibility for Marrone and Manuel. We cannot have it both ways tho try as people here may try to do so. I agree with you, I think it was a very calculated move, but think about who's running things, a marketer. I think it was a calculated move to insulate Whaley to every extent possible by "making this Nix's doing," thereby trying to give Whaley a stay of execution when things don't work out. Will it work? Only to the extent that fans are gullible, which seems to be pretty much the case. That's been working like a charm since the day that they hired Donahoe. If you're the team, why try to change anything now. There's no need to. They're getting their money from the fans that give it to them. Their options are limited. Let's not forget, they reached for Manuel according to 90% of draft evaluators or more. Why? Because they "had to have him," he "was their guy." Well, OK, now he's their guy. Everyone here and elsewhere defending the move tried to tell us how the Whaley front office had changed and how Marrone was a good hire, etc. If they can't identify a QB without obvious issues and ones that were known prior to the Draft, then it hardly makes them look competent. Also, can they really draft a QB this upcoming Draft without losing face? Clearly not since they'd have to admit that they didn't know what they were doing this year. They can try to insulate Whaley, but there's no insulating Marrone. If Whaley wasn't in on the decision to hire Marrone, he can fire him at season's end and use that as the reason. He won't because he was in on it. It's silly and naive to think that he wasn't. I doubt that Nix had any respect at all from anyone at OBD this past offseason. Either way, the only thing that's going to make this staff look even less competent than reaching for an issue-laden QB in a "he's our guy" manner it would be drafting another QB this upcoming Draft. So Manuel's here for '14 too for better or for worse. Hopefully they'll fix the OL, get a 3-down RB, and find another good WR or TE to at least try to make the most of their past "he's our guy" investment. But you can't make "he's our guy" statements amidst questionable decision making otherwise and not expect a rash of justifiable criticism if the decision backfires. Your concerns are justifed. So is your hope, but as we all know what we want and hope for is a lot different than reality in Buffalo. I've posted this article a number of times now. It highlights the issues that Manuel had at FSU better than anyone that I've ever read and by two guys that saw every game he played in and had some contacts at FSU football. http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state The type of things that these guys talk about that would hold him back in the NFL have clearly materialized. I have absolutely no trouble to deferring to two guys that watched every snap of Manuel's career at FSU and know his play well. Either way,. the shortcomings are the same. "Inconsistency at the fundamental aspects of QB play."

The statement is incorrect, he's had four bad games, not one. Two good ones to start the season. He's moving backwards. That's usually the signs that there wasn't any film to work with, etc., for opposing DCs, but now that it's available things are different. Either way, between glaring inaccuracy issues that simply don't seem to improve, and other significant issues, it's a lot for a rookie QB to shake out at this point. He should be working on refining his game, not fundamentals at this point. Granted, no one ever said they were expecxting a seasoned NFL vet by this point, but some progress would be nice. He can't put string more than 20 minutes of accurately throwing the ball together. How's he going to improve to the level of competenet NFL QB until he gets that basic fundamental squared away. And not that that's his only fundamental issue, people have mentioned others here as well.

As to Manuel, his first two games were easily his best. Since then he's been terrible and getting worse. Is it the coaching? Is it him? Is it defenses having more film to prepare by? Likely a combination of all three, but right now Marrone's future with the team since he absolutely had to have Manuel hinges on Manuel's improvement, but alas, there isn't much for him to hang his hat on. At midseason he should be showing signs that he's finally caught on, instead there are numerous fans and even some media stirring up a QB controversy, which is shaping up to be something similar to a drunk man's vision of a beautty contest at some random bar at 2 a.m. Either way, it doesn't really matter what we think, but Marrone's future is tied to this "must have" decision now. As usual, as Bills fans, if we plan for this stuff we won't be disappointed.

LMAO You wouldn't have a forum then.

But, but, he's their guy. Maybe this coaching staff and Marrone don't know what they're doing either. Already in year 1 of a rebuild it's looking more and more every week like we've been sold another bill of goods. The interesting thing is that this info was out there before he was drafted. Didn't the team see it, or did they ignore it thinking that they were brighter than everyone else.

This season shouldn't have been about winning. Better to go 2-14 but have Manuel develop than to go 10-6 on the merits of some lucky wins over beat up teams, ala 2004, and have a solid QB for the future. I wasn't big on drafting Manuel and I would have waited until this year's crop of QBs and not spent that pick in round one, but as usual, the "experts" on this team knew better, had to have Manuel who "was their guy," so now we, but more importantly they, are stuck with him for better or worse. They're either going to ride Manuel into the sunset for a number of years or we'll be looking at yet another coaching staff beginning in '16. Right now I'm not seeing it though. Until Manuel can string more than 20 minutes of accurately throwing a football together, the concerns and issues of this team stretch a little bit beyond what the record is. Jackson's obviously slowing down and I expect both lesser performance as well as further injuries this season for him, and we're lucky to be getting what we are from a 32-year-old RB. Spiller's clearly not a 3-down ball carrier, and Mr. "can take the ball to the house every time he touches it" has 1 TD on 118 touches this season, and he hasn't been injured the entire year. He's being outplayed by a 32 yo RB. Defensively, and despite Alonso playing well as a rookie, the team is ranked 24th in points allowed, 20th in yards allowed, and despite being tied for 3rd in sacks generated, is ranked 31st in passing TDs allowed. The things that should be happening to propel this team forward next year are not happening. Meanwhile, a much better QB we'll probably pass on in this draft because the current class of "experts" "had to have" Manuel. The success and tenure of the Marrone era is now directly tied to Manuel. Put yourself in his shoes, would you be comfortable with that given what we've seen? Again, until Manuel can throw accurately more often than he does inaccurately, I wouldn't wager a dime on his further development to the extent that it will be what they claim it would be and what it needs to be. The last thing anyone should care about is the record and whether or not we can win 7 or 8 games or whatever. Trade all that to see Manuel start playing like an above average NFL QB, otherwise next season will be a repeat of this one. On top of all that, Manuel's one injury away from making next year the first year of a rebuild instead of this year. Let's see if Manuel can hit the broad side of a barn for 4 Qs today before we continue talking about wins. If it is true that people aren't posting, we have to imagine that it's simply because we've been through this exercise every season for years. High hopes based on talk don't materialize on the field, excuses are made (by many, not just the team), fans and media revert to what a player did for one season in a handful and hope that lightning strikes twice, fundamentals are ignored in favor of cherry-picked data and stats to delude those that want to be deluded into thinking that something's actually changed, no one talks about how the reasons for the last coach hired now don't seem as solid as when he was hired and before games were played, fans and media continue to hope that all elements, for some inexplicable reason much less any real hope that's based on logic, will somehow come together for no reason otherwise, all fhis of course prior to what few hopes remain become dashed as the realities start to set in. Again, all eyes should be on Manuel's development. If he turns out to be a justifiable draft pick by a head coach and offensive coordinator that just had to have him, then all will be well and the rest of the team will come together at least decently next season and in '15. If not however, and that's the forecast given how Manuel's played so far with his inaccuracy issues, then the rest is moot and this merely becomes another installment of wash/rinse/repeat. Until Manuel can start playing 4 quarters of football with accuracy, this team is going the same place that it's gone to when Polian hasn't been the GM, namely nowhere.

Having said that, if he fails to live up to the status of franchise QB, then someone needs to be held accountable given that perceived reach by many. We can't then turn around and say that the people making that decision knew what they were doing, I think we can agree there. I'm concerned, franchise QBs don't typically have the wildly inaccuracy issues that Manuel has for quarters at a time.

It may be interesting but Belichick's history w/ QBs besides Brady is getting them to underachieve. Remember, it's not like he recognized the blatantly obvious flaws in Bledsoe and gave Brady a chance after seeing prospects in Brady. It took a season-ending injury to Bledsoe to get him to give Brady a shot, who played better than Bledsoe without ever having taken an NFL snap in a real game prior to that. If that had been a better QB than Bledsoe, the possibility is high that that other QB would have replaced Brady again after that season. Look at Belichick's record with his QBs in Cleveland, they all underachieved, especially Testeverde. IMO this is a meaningless thing. As soon as Brady fades, so too will Belichick begin to fade. The only reason why the Pats are 6-2 this season is due to 3 wins vs.. weak and flawed division opponents for half of those 6 wins, with wins against hapless Tampa and Atlanta (2-12 between them) for two more. Their only quality win was vs. the Saints, which was also a home game for them. I can't wait for Brady to leave that team one way or another. I hope he demands a trade after the season for getting screwed over. Belichick's history in drafting QBs is not good. Mallett, Robinson, O'Connell, Cassel, Kingsbury, Davey Stepping into Brady was **** luck for him.

Doesn't anyone see the cliche'd silliness of this oft-repeated statement? Essentially what it says is get him away from tacklers and he'll be fine. Isn't that the goal on every play, find the open guy or create big enough holes, the bigger the better, so that players have space. All players are better in space. I can't think of one that when he had space could routinely do less and gain fewer yards than in traffic. So in essence, Spiller's great when he's surrounded by green. Great. Here's the bottom line, he wasn't the best rusher at Clemson, he sucked as a rookie and soph here, he had one big freak season that won't ever be repeated. Spiller was a player that got more mileage from his returns at Clemson that spilled over in his media clippings to areas where it never should have spilled over, namely his running game. Even his receiving game where he was better at Clemson, was largely at the expense of the bad teams on their schedule, like GA Tech that year. He hit 1,000 yards rushing only once in four years and then only courtesy of an extra ACC championship game against a terrible GA Tech defense, not the regular schedule. He's not a full-time 3-down RB, he's a role player that had fortunate circumstances last year, just like many other RBs that peak and have a great season or two but cannot seem to duplicate that level of success with anything even approaching regular consistency. For a team to plan around him as something he isn't says a lot about the understanding of Spiller by that team. Then again, this team hasn't exactly been blessed with brains in the front office when someone named Polian hasn't been at the top.

They love him "because of what he did for the Jets." Of course no one actually looks at what he did for the Jets, namely take them from 1st to 20th in D, but everyone had to convince themselves that Marrone knows his stuff so they made stuff up. Sorry there's no better answer, but that's the truth. They're currently ranked 25th in points allowed and that's what really matters. Most of these new "metrics" sites merely post extemporaneous stats w/o tying them together in any meaningful way. Either way, the team is allowing 26.6 points per game right now, whereas last year they allowed 27.2, not a significant difference and the talent is indisputably better this year. Kiko alone has been huge.

Amen to that. It's one thing to "almost win" a few games or even win a couple more, which hasn't happened yet, but it's entirely another matter to build a competent team that's capable for playoff caliber performance. I notice that in these forums it's the younger fans that seem more content to simply have a .500 or 9-7 team while the older fans that went thru the '90s want more. The Bills' record outside of the Polian era is abyssmal, one of the worst in the league otherwise.