Ronin

If you're prepared to do that, why not just go and throw eggs at Wilson's grave. He's the one with the greatest influence to prevent this by selling the team. I mean he said one thing, about how he cared about us, but honestly, running the team into the ground and creating the league's most modern futile team fringing the league's historically most futile team did what for us exactly besides create a rift in the fanbase and cause many fans to turn to a state of apathy. He could easily have prevented this but chose not to. He lied to you about doing all that he could, and bilked us fans by dangling that carrot in front of us for years.

Yeah, Woods was the logical choice to play slot and the team even said that prior to now. You're right. Lotsa "IF's" though. Think about it, we're really expecting a whole lotta things that have never happened to happen here. Watkins hardly made his success in college playing the role of a traditional split (X) WR that he's now going to supposedly be playing regularly with Woods in the slot. Here's the thing about Watkins though, if the team plans on using him in the flats and on screens like Clemson used him, we all saw that this was probably Manuel's worse kind of throw, to the flats and on screens and such. Goodwin, again, I just don't understand the sentiment. His college numbers are worse than Graham's. He too is being expected to do what he's never done. I don't think he'll even be with the team after the '15 season if perhaps not even after this one. I don't think that he'll be a "surprise cut" simply because the team has too much faith in him seemingly. I don't ever see him as being more than a 4th or 5th or putting up much more than Graham ever did. Everyone used to talk about Graham similarly although now the realization has set in. What are the expecations for Williams? If they're more than the 700 or 800 yards he's put up on average since he's been in the league I'm not sure that's huge cause for hope. Lastly, Woods. He's the biggest reason for hope here. He's also the only starting WR that Manuel's thrown to. You have every right to be skeptical, we all do despite others trying to convince us otherwise. They should have kept Stevie for one more season, it would have helped immensely with the transition to all of the youth. Instead we get a 4th rounder, maybe a 3rd, but given our history of 3rd and 4th round picks, that falls into the who cares category. Shoulda kept Stevie. Defensively I'll disagree with you. Pettine's system was heavy on pass-D but very light on run-D, which killed us in the long run. When we consider that we only played 1 team with a top 15 RB, that's hardly good. Also, we didn't exactly face the best passing teams either. New England was in a down year for them. NO and Atlanta, despite us logging 10 sacks in the two games, ripped us new ones passing nonetheless. Pettine's D was overrated because of the sack stats and the fact that the average passing offenses that we played was 20th. Unfortuntely that will be misinterpreted this season as the quality of offensive opponentry increases. Schwartz will be blamed for inherent flaws in last year's D that no one called out. I suspect that Pettine is going to flop in Cleveland. Really stepping out there I realize. lol Still. Yeah, the game has changed. I don't see Manuel throwing for 3,000 yards in a league where average is in the 3,300-3,500 range. In Kelly's day average was in the 2,500-2,700 range and he was well above average.

He's a good YAC receiver seemingly. A bit early to be making predictions about a WR corp that hasnt' proven anything yet in the NFL. Goodwin is pure potential at this point. If he were that good why didn't he even hit 300 yards last season, mostly on a few big plays. I guess I still don't get the hype on a WR that never even hit 500 yards in one season and one that's supposed to be so fast yet averaged only 11.4 ypc in college. Woods also showed potential, but there too, 587 yards with 3 TDs was only moderately impressive in today's pass-oriented NFL. Williams won't provide any more than he ever has anywhere else, maybe less. Watkins still has to prove that he can operate to the level (statistically) that he did in college without all of the gimmickry. I don't see that happening initially. Particularly given that one of his knocks is his route running. Again, if that system, Clemson's, weren't a huge factor in his success there, then why wasn't a QB of Drew Brees' size that consistently threw 30+ TDs every season drafted higher than the 6th round. There's some reason for optimism, but again, it all comes down to Manuel. If the team wanted a more immediate return on their money, and perhaps a better long-term option, imo Mike Evans was a no-brainer. Having said all of that, I have zero faith in Manuel. Once again, I'll cite this piece; http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state The issues that the authors cite were the exact same things we saw last year from Manuel last season.

LOL This couldn't be any funnier. I'm all over the place? You speak as if you've lived under a rock for the last four seasons. Here, I'll clue you in, that "Toronto Series" was an epic failure, so much so that they're backing out of it. Trying to reason with people here is beyond the pale. Sadly, the realities are going to begin unfolding and you nor any other Bills fans, including me since we all want the same thing, aren't going to be happy. The difference between me and you, and others, is that I'm calling a spade a spade and not going to be shy about labeling Wilson what he really was, which was hardly a friend of the fans as he built up a legend for. He was an idiot in terms of building a good football organization and outside of Polian's influence has the most futile NFL franchise in history. When we consider that Polian wa not hired by design, but was fired [by Wilson directly] by design, that merely adds fuel to that fire. Now this, for years, and without any evidence whatsoever we can add, all we heard about is that Wilson did all that he could do to keep the team in Buffalo. Now we find out that we're a roll of the dice and "lucky snake-eyes" away from not even having a team when "doing everything he could to keep the team here" was quite easily achieveable while he was alive. Let's face facts, Wilson, being from Detroit, cared about Wilson and Wilsons, not about you or I. Posthumously, if you or anyone else thinks that's going to change, and that Mary Wilson or anyone else in the trust cares about us as fans more than Ralph did, then you're nuts. It really is that simple apart from Buffalo simply not cutting it in terms of being an NFL caliber city any longer, the struggles of which have been detailed over the last decade. No need to get into that again since apparently you and others seem to think that luxury suites sell just fine when the team has documented its struggles in doing so. I'm just curious when others are going to be calling that proverbial spade a spade and coming clean on the notion that Wilson didn't do anything for us besides some lease that buys a few more seasons, of what, horrid play under the same group of lemmings that run the team now.

Exactly. But keep in mind, it's your opinion that's changed, not the circumstances. The circumstances have been in play for decades.

They can buy it now. Who said they can't besides a roomful of people here about a month ago talking about how the sale would take years. I was about the only one I saw that disagreed and said that the sale would happen much more quickly than the several years that were splashed all over the news. In fact, amidst a slew of whining, pretty much everything that I pointed out made sense has happened. Next up, we'll start hearing about the varying "problems" with the four (or was it three?) chosen sites for the stadium survey. After that, perhaps even later this summer, talk about how keeping the team in the region is unlikely after 2020 with the team perhaps even moving sooner than that. Am I mystical? Do I have a crystal ball? No. I just have common sense and understand that it's the filthy rich and corrupt politicians that run this world. You guys all sit here and talk as if you rub shoulders with billionaires and corrupt politicians and know the innerworkings of the money world. Sorry to break to you, but they don't give a crap about you. It's all about the new next owner of the team, that's it. If you think that the Wilsons care about you, lol, then I don't even know what to say. If Ralph didn't care enough to take care of this business while he was alive, certainly no one in his estate does. Thinking otherwise is foolish. But you guys will think what you want to. You won't submit yourselves to reason. The same way that people think that Watson is going to somehow achieve the status that no other rookie WR ever has this season and propel us into the playoffs. Message boards, the stuff that fairy tales are made of.

Can we see some documentation that it isnt' so? Common sense, reason, and reading between the lines go far in situations like this. I'll side with myself, who argued two months ago that this nonsense about the team taking years to sell was simply that, nonsense. Meanwhile, everyone rejoiced because they thought that bought us more time too, and that shortly thereafter fell flat too. Honestly, the writing's on the wall. I want the team to stay as much as you or the next Bills fan, it's not like I want to see the leave the city. Unless of course Brandon and Littmann and Overdorf would continue to run the team for 20 more years, in which case I don't care, but presumably a new owner would change that. Pretending that Wilson has done something that realistically makes no sense, pretending that Buffalo's bigger than it is financially, pretending that NYS is even among the top few states that isn't broke, pretending that Erie County has any leverage whatsoever, etc., is a fool's game. If you want to temporarily believe that, then feel free. As everyone said earlier, Wilson's "big gift" to us was this lease that supposedly keeps the team here thru 2020. But I wouldn't even put a confederate dollar on that happening.

Re: Toronto, I was replying to Wayne Cubed's implication that the Toronto metro area and suburbs were realistically in play in terms of factoring in the market for the team to remain in Buffalo. Couldn't you figure that out? Clearly that isn't the case. The same people thinking that were the same people arguing about how we were going to finally make the playoffs over the last 10 years. Re: the latter, first of all you need to reread that. Secondly, if in fact he had made such arrangements, wouldn't they be in play? There's not a reason in the world to hide it. The only card that could possibly be played in that regard is one that states that Ralph mandated selling the team to an owner that would keep it here, but that burden would then fall upon Mary Wilson and the others in the trust to use their judgement. And think about it, for then how long would an owner have to keep it here? What, 10, 20, 30 years? You really think that a business owner is going to be tied to the wishes of a dead guy for the duration of his lifetime? You're crazy if you think that. The world doesn't work that way. And why all the hiding of things, things that every time something new is released it isn't good for us? I'll tell you why, as I've said all along, this was merely out of respect for the situation. It would have been incredibly disrespectful for all kinds of posturing going on regarding the sale of the team when an iconic owner had just passed away. But that after a certain amount of time had passed, exactly that would begin happening. Also, how do you think that it would have played amongst the fan base if the trust/team had revealed that Wilson did in fact make no such arrangements? You really think that fans would have been respectful of our fearless owner that did all he could to keep the team in Buffalo? Let me ask you? Wilson, being from Detroit, where do you think he would have put his team had Detroit not already had a team when he bought it? If you say Buffalo, well, I'll refrain from further comment. If Wilson wanted that the only way to have secured it would be to have sold it himself, and then trusted that the person he sold it to, was being honest. No one can determine where a business owner locates his business for the long-term future. That's absurd. You guys on the side of this argument that says that the team remains in Buffalo chances are 90% are dreaming. I'd say that it's more like 10%. If Buffalo didn't already have a team those chances dwindle to 0%. So what's your point? That we can avail ourselves of a market that has never been considered part of Buffalo's market? Why are you arguing the points that I made? If you simply want to hear yourself argue, please pick another target. If Toronto's a market in that way, the team will be in Toronto. People that think that we can tap that market with a team here in Buffalo, to the extent that it makes a difference in this scenario anyway, are the same types of people that thought that with the Fast Ferry in Rochester Torontoans would flock to Rochester to shop at the malls.

Come on, if he had then it'd be out and the uber wealthy wouldn't be wasting their time. You wanna bet me $100 that he didn't? I didn't think so.

Whatever. If you can't piece that simple thing together you don't understand business either. Three words: Location, location, location. You think I coined that? Yeah, OK, I'm the one that doesn't understand business. OK The others, besides you, that don't understand business are the politicians. They have absolutely no profit margin, no P/L to worry about as a result, constantly overspend, arbitrarily set their operating costs, like wages for government employees, and when they overspend they simply ask for more tax money and go fleece the sheep some more. If a real busines owner could do that, ...

They're not saying. Isn't that nice of them. My guess is that yes, they do. Otherwise they would come out and say it. Seems like every day now we're hearing about one more thing that screws us over. Just get it all out already. Why these stupid games with the fans. I'm so pissed at Wilson.

Exactly. And Toronto's been there for how long? A few weeks? No, for as long as the Bills have been in town and then some. Clearly that's hardly a draw. Let's be practical and realistic here. Meanwhile, you say that if Toronto, what, the metro area ten times the size of Buffalo, with an enormous amount of much larger businesses and the financial hub of Canada and one of the largest few financial centers in the world, but the chances of moving the team to Toronto are slim to nil. Figure out which it is. If Toronto's a factor as you imply, then the team's moving to Toronto, not sitting in a paltry little city barely making the top-100 in size in the US without a single Fortune 500 company and not even close to enough corporate dollars to regularly fill luxury suites, is the outcome. BTW, this L.A. thing in the piece was a red herring.

You know what it sounds like to me, ... common sense really, that Brandon and Polancarz fully understand that it's an uphill battle to keep the team in the region. That they're exploring all options to do so. That they don't want to suggest that the odds of the team staying may be closer to 10% than to 90-100% like many here seem to BILL-ieve. This isn't a fairy tale, it's modern America where money is all that matters and the desires of the uber wealthy are all that matter. Take Wilson for instance. You really think he cared about anything but himself and the inheretence he'd leave his family? Please! He could have sold the team to Golosano, Peguda, Trump, or anyone else that agreed to keep it in Buffalo, but instead he's arranged to have it sold upon his death and now we've heard, several times, that it will be to the highest bidder. I'd bet anything that that's exactly who's going to be buying it, the highest bidder. I'm just curious how many fans still view Ralph as some great guy that really did what he could, or even a small amount besides throwing an anchor on the team, while it still sucks, to stick around for a few more seasons. That's a fact, Wilson could have arranged, perhaps even posthumously, to have sold the team to someone willing to keep it here. The other fact is that he did not do that. At this point, every dime that the estate makes is pure profit off of his original purchase price of $25K, which in today's NFL terms is about a penny. I guess $800M, even after taxes, isn't enough for his family to live on. Meanwhile, watch, the team will go to the playoffs the season before it moves. Again, you're missing the point. A month ago if anyone had been asked about the value of the Clippers, we'd be having the same conversation here, that the Clippers wouldn't sell for anymore than $1B if that. These people have way too much money for everyone else's good.

You and others don't get it. They'll never cover the costs in any city as long as taxpayer funding/money for a stadium is involved. But that's a different matter, it has absolutely nothing to do with a sale like this. Even in Buffalo if they built a new stadium they wouldn't have enough to cover the cost. They don't now, they've had to bilk taxpayers to cover the expenses of business owners, aka NFL owners, aka Wilson. It's a simple matter of where can a team make more money, here or elsewhere. Clearly there are a number of markets ripe for an NFL team that could do much much better for their owner and which would be in a better position than NYS/EC to build a stadium. NYS doesn't have a pot to piss in anymore.

7-10 million within 100 miles? Say WHAT? If we had half of that there wouldn't be any problem. What pisses me off is that Wilson could easily have sold the team to an owner with a stated desire and interest in keeping the team in the region. Meanwhile, there are some that still believe, for unbeknownst reasons, that Wilson "did all that he could to keep the team in Buffalo." Yeah, right. I got so sick and tired of hearing that in the years before he croaked given that obvious situation. PS I guess enough time has now passed since Wilson's kicking that it's all going to start coming out now.

By the way, here's a piece from the weekend that you can use to get your knees wet. http://www.buffalone...two-bills-drive It states the same things that I've argued and which have been stated often in the past by multiple sources, along with a few new ones. Things such as that if the Bills fanbase could support shelling out tons of money for luxury suites then they'd be doing it right now, not to mention that there's not a single home-based fortune-500 company. Lastly, he says this; Not to get conspiratorial, but I can’t dismiss the possibility that Goodell is talking “new stadium” to set a higher bar than Buffalo can reach – and give the league a face-saving “out.” I've mentioned this possibility too but few seem to think that this could be the case. IMO that's exactly what's going on. So once again, regarding your post, and ignorance, right back at ya.

lmao Oh yeah, they're great at it. Hence our status as the most futile team in the NFL at the moment and brushing up against historical futility. What was that you said about the deep end? The team struggled to sellout five games last season, and you think that having PSLs, aka charging even more, is going to help that? Sounds like you're in the kiddie pool to me. Good to see that you know this though. Try doing a modest amount of research first. Here's something to get you on your way; http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/10072/would-bills-fans-pay-for-psls Check out the prices that other cities charge for PSLs, then consider that we can't sell out at face value often, and often only with generous people buying thousands of tickets to create that sellout. Do you really think that WNY can get fans to pay those inflated prices? You're cracked if you do.

By the way, here's an interesing piece. http://forums.colts....tv-market-size/ I don't see Orlando as an option because there are obviously three other FL teams. But I do think that Portland wouldn't surprise me. Nor would Oklahoma City which isn't far down from that list. Hartford will never happen, it infringes too much on the NY and NE teams. Also not sure about Raleigh, although that wouldn't surprise me either. I don't think it would make a difference, especially since the Toronto series was a complete flop. The only thing that's going to "cement ties to the Canadian market" is moving the team there. If anything the state, if it's truly interested in keeping the team, needs to cement ties to the CNY market. Putting the team in NF doesn't do a thing for CNY-ers except make the drive longer and extend the blackout radius slightly eastward.

I think that the Jets will post a winning season this year. We split with the Pats in '03 and '11. 6-10 both seasons. What's your point, simply that we'll split? Last season we split too, the Jets won two more games than we did. We beat the Fins twice, they too finished at 8-8. Our problem is that we can't beat any good teams outside of our division. LOL Yeah, that and a little matter of two relatively pedestrian RBs, Bilal Powell and Chris Ivory, logging bookoo rushing yards on us. In two games we gave up 316 rushing yards to the Jets and their pathetic offensive backfield.

We rarely seem to agree, but thank you! We agree here. I'll add to that, Buffalo is dragging the rest of the league down in that way. We're talking about owners that would stop to pick up the proverbial dime. When talking tens of millions it only gives them more incentive to "cut the cord" to Buffalo. Winning will make you more profitable. The Bills are profitable, they make money. You, and many others, keep missing the point. The point is where can the most money be made? Hint: It's not Buffalo. You're wrong. Can't you just do a 30-second google to find out? That piece even mentions two of the spots that I mentioned in another thread that have bigger TV markets and which, IMO, would be ripe for and NFL team. Oklahoma City and Portand. By the way, Buffalo ranks 28th.

In an enormous hole that will be there forever. And Green Bay is one of the more profitable franchises, the Bills are one of the least profitable. In 2012 the Packers had then again over a third of the revenue that the Bills had and over 4 times the profit. The owners want money, and most will screw over their own mother to get it. Every last dime that they can. This overemphasis on the sentimentalization of the fan base and traditions like Buffalo are irrelevant. I'm sure they don't want Cleveland all over again, but Cleveland happened, and once again, it was all about the money and a new stadium. If it can happen to LA and Baltimore, it can happen to Buffalo. To think otherwise is foolish.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but this is way way way over Erie County's head. Again, please. The fact that their business model relies on stealing from taxpayers tells for financing on stadiums, which gives the unethical and immoral politicians the leverage that they have, tells me that this is not so. Until that changes to start, I don't see any contrary argument to my original point. The same point could have been made about LA teams, or the Colts when they moved. The NFL is just as valuable to the politicians as visa versa. Money talks my friend, and some of its biggest statements are behind-closed-doors whispers. I'm not insisting that the team is going to move, but I'll believe that they're staying when they stay. I'm just not foolish and gullible enough to think that all kinds of deals can't, and won't, be made behind closed doors. I was also in the minority and took a rash for it for not believing that the team would take years to sell. Yet, after all the initial reports talking about how a sale could take years, here we are, with reports now talking about how the team may be sold within a few months. You can't always, in fact you can rarely, believe what you read in the "news." You ask me if I know more than Bill Polian, who strikes me as a pretty straight shooter, but Jerry Jones' comments also seem to counter Polian's. Are you saying that you know more than Jones, who doesn't strike me as a straight shooter and who I can see being as devious as anyone in order to get his desire and corral others to side with him? Come on now, these forums are laden with some of the most gullible people on the planet. This isn't going to have a dam thing to do with anything but how much money the owners and league can make, that's it. They don't give a crap about us fans here in Buffalo. Period. Anyone that thinks that they do is a fool. Even Schumer, all he cares about is himself too, and if posturing as he has will help him, that's the only reason he'll do it. Having said that, I'm struggling immensely to see how this vision of the team staying in Buffalo, one of the league's most underperforming franchises, will happen.

lol OK, so 20,000 people to drop $10K on the Bills, in WNY? I think you overestimate the region. We struggle to sell 40K season tickets w/ no licenses, and have struggled to sell some of the least expensive luxury suites in the league. It doesn't help that the people running the team don't know WTF they're doing.

As long as the funny money system stays in place and politicians can just spend off of their money trees, some municipality somewhere will fund the financing on new stadiums for owners. The NFL operates in a fascist economic model, not a free market model. It's just not going to happen in Buffalo for the long-term. Maybe I'm wrong as NYS is among the leaders in overspending.

That's because the secondary was overrated last year. With Byrd gone it's not going to be good. It was the system that made them look better than they are. Few seem to be able to see this. Same for Watkins, it was his system in college that allowed him to excel. I read somewhere that most of his yardage came off of bubble screens. Several places in fact and his splits support that. Well, bubble screens aren't going to work in the NFL. So, now what we have is a highly touted WR that is going to be asked to do what he did not frequently do in college, and one that has route running as a weakness. That is hardly a good combo for an NFL WR much less for a rookie looking to transform a team and render credibility to a GM that's already taking on water for last year's 1st rounder. He may be great in a couple of seasons, but it's not going to be this season. If Manuel doesn't make an enormous leap, then Watkins will be fortunate to post 600 yards and 5 TDs, hardly enough to make an impact. Aaron Williams didn't all of a sudden become good overnight. He's still not good, he merely benefited from the system. McKelvin has sucked as a CB for years too, ditto there. Corey Graham simply isn't that good. Searcy, ... please. Gilmore's good but he's far from great yet. He needs to step up too. He's solid though. Without Byrd, IMO, this secondary falls apart. He was the glue that held it together.