Utah John

It isn't the OC's fault the talent on the O line is so bad. Whaley and Beane both tried to upgrade the O line through the draft. A lot of their picks haven't worked out, but at least they tried. And they did get Dawkins. They tried some FAs too but if Ducasse is the best you can show, you're doing something wrong. (OK, they did bring in Richie but that was out of desperation. And even though Richie was playing at a high level, the Bills clearly pushed him out the door by giving him a pay cut after he made the Pro Bowl. They must have seen the crazies coming on.) It's also not on Whaley and Beane that Wood developed his neck issues and retired. The only hope the Bills had was to develop the talent they did have, which requires a great O line coach. They had a very good O line coach (the guy who had the altercation with the kids on the beach) but they let him go. The current coach just doesn't seem up to the job. As I said on one of these threads a week ago, if they don't fix the O line, it doesn't matter a bit who plays QB. There won't be a running game, the QB will get killed, and we'll have to hope the defense wins us a lot of 9-7 games. It's going to be a long year.

There are still 11 men on the field from each team at any one time. Every player is at least pretty good or they wouldn't be in the NFL. The game is in Baltimore and it's the first of the year so the Ravens and their fans will be fired up. If the Bills don't fix their O-line, it won't matter a bit who the Baltimore TE is.

I'm not convinced analytics will work as well in football as it does for some aspects of baseball. A hitter and a pitcher, mostly one on one. Sure the defense is working together and the catcher has a lot to do with the outcome, and also the hitter might not be swinging freely but instead could have men on base and needs to hit accordingly. But it's largely one on one, so the influence of other team members (such as the O line in football, or the skill and speed of the receivers, or the offensive scheme) is less in baseball. Also a hitter gets hundreds of times at the plate in a season, so there's a big statistical sample compared to a QB's number of passes attempted. So for football, I think analytics might be an indicator of capability but not always a good one. As for statistics in general, people are terrible at understanding what they mean. If there's a 10% chance of rain, most people assume it won't rain, period. What that 10% means is that on one day out of ten with those weather conditions, it will rain. So you shouldn't be surprised or angry if today's the one day out of ten.

Marrone is a very conservative coach. Always has been. Leopards can't change their spots.

If the O line doesn't get better, any QB we put in will have a tough time.

When a team loses but a competitor for the playoffs also loses, and the competitor is eliminated while your team advances, that's backing in. Winning your last game and having a competitor lose a game on the same day is NOT backing in. That's what happened.

It's always been clear that Incognito has a screw loose, but that didn't stop him from being an outstanding player for the Bills. I think this commotion all started with the Bills telling him he needed to take a big pay cut, immediately after another Pro Bowl season. I never understood the Bills' thinking on this, unless they were just trying to get him to quit, but why you'd do that with a great player is beyond me. Richie has serious issues, no doubt, but he's being treated pretty shabbily in my opinion, instead of getting support and help.

It's hard to evaluate TT accurately because he played on such great offensive teams. They were great in part because of him, but they had everything particularly a great O line. I saw a feature online recently showing all of his TDs in a particular year. In most of them he had to be elusive but not insanely so -- he'd put a little head bob or a half step sideways or delay a beat, and he'd get the opening he needed. This is not a criticism in fact it's high praise for a guy who had such a great feel for the game. But, without that great O line and the passing game at the same time, it's easy to see how a defense could have taken him out of the game. OJ, on the other hand, excelled even though everyone knew the Bills were going to run -- of course he had a great O line too. I've always thought OJ was the best Bill of all time, and was the best runner of a long list of great RBs. With Cookie #2, TT #3, Shady #4, and a bunch of other guys who were all really good making up the rest of the top 10.

The criteria sports writers use to evaluate a player's career are silly. A great player might never play on a great team. That's not his fault. His accomplishments should be be given MORE weight if his team doesn't make the playoffs consistently, because it indicates he's not riding on someone else's abilities to get things done.

At this point, a good draft is one that makes sense. The Bills selected players to fill needs. They failed to find a stud WR, someone who can beat the coverage and catch an Allen pass 65 yards downfield. Other than that, the draft made sense. Contrast this year's picks with, oh, how about drafting CJ Spiller when we already had Fred Jackson. Or, of course, giving up so much to draft Sammy Watkins when we didn't have a QB to throw it to him. I'm not saying the results are judged on the performance of the players, because all teams pick guys that don't work out for whatever reason. I'm saying those picks simply didn't make sense from a structural, strategic perspective. This year's picks do make sense.

This isn't a bad thing for the Bills. Let it be.

And the Seahawks should have given the ball to Lynch and won their second SB in a row. So they actually won, I guess, and the Pats didn't win whatever number that was. The Cavs pulled out the championship on one of their previous four tries. I don't think they were the better team but they won. Good for them. As some coach once said, you are what your record says you are. Your ACTUAL record, not the couldawouldashoulda record in your head.

Finally a post that shows some respect for him. He has always been someone who's struggled fitting into society, but from all accounts during his time with the Bills he was a great teammate and was certainly an excellent player. I didn't understand why the Bills cut his pay after yet another excellent season. Maybe it was to force him out, and maybe they saw a trend in his behavior that told them he was not going to stay on the right path this year. Who knows whether the Bills tried to get him help while he was still with the team. The bottom line for me is that he's a human being who deserves respect, who played great for the Bills, and who apparently needs some help before he hurts himself or others. There's no sin in that. It's just a different form of illness that needs to be addressed.

More: Not paying Antoine Winfield. Not keeping Pat Williams. Of course, not paying Jason Peters largely because his agent was such a rotten guy to deal with. Not keeping Ted Washington.

Letting some new coach (Mularkey, I think) come in and fire Rusty Jones. The Bills won a lot of games because Jones had them better conditioned than the other teams.

Here's another: Letting Jim Kelly take a call from the USFL in the Bills office, when he was ready to sign as a rookie. He ended up spending a couple of years in the USFL instead of with the Bills.

Here are more: Firing Bill Polian because he wouldn't be pushed around by Ralph's daughter. Firing John Butler for no apparent reason. Bad drafts are too easy a target, but some were so stupid they stand out. Drafting Al Cowlings in the first round so OJ would have his buddy to hang out with. Aaron Maybin -- seriously, what were they thinking? Trading two firsts and a fourth for Sammy Watkins, when we didn't have a QB to throw to him. Treating Lou Saban like crap, twice. There was only one week between the playoffs and the SB against the Giants. Maybe if there had been two weeks like there had been before, the Bills would have gotten the partying out of their system and buckled down.

Giving up a home game to Toronto. Trading Lamonica for Flores. Lamonica obviously had years of great play ahead of him, and Flores was washed up. (If you don't know who these guys are, you missed some great Bills teams.) Trading Cookie Gilchrist to the Broncos. Trading Ron McDole to the Redskins. Hiring John Rauch. Hiring Wrecks and letting him destroy Schwartz's great defense. Hiring Marv Levy as GM. Most important, letting Littman call too many shots. The cheapskate Bills would not compete for talent with the deep-pocket teams.

The Bills first SB was just a few years after the 85 Bears, and the Bills thought they could party like the Bears did and still win easily. They had just destroyed the Raiders in the AFC championship game and felt unbeatable. Which they were. So they beat themselves, spending the most important week of the season drunk and hungover, and unable to tackle anyone. It's true the Giants played a great game and had a great game plan, but also Marv Levy knew his team's weakness up the middle of the defense and did not game plan to compensate for it. So the Giants pounded away and the Bills didn't have the strength to stop them.

He hit the receiver in stride, 65 yards down field, without good mechanics and while falling backward. Geez Louise. And you're worried about style points? I'm not sure he's going to be a good draft pick but it will be fun to watch.

The thing is, they were both flawed. We wanted desperately to have one of them be The Guy but neither had what it takes. Flutie might have been a jerk. OK, that's bad, but how well could he play? He was OK. He played like a smart QB with a limited arm and good athletic ability should play. He focused on moving the chains and staying in good down and distance. With a strong defense, which the Bills had, he could help the team win. But he wasn't the guy to take them to a SB win. Sorry, but when you get into the playoffs the softies are gone and the QB really has to make plays with his arm, and Flutie was not the guy for that. Johnson had no pocket awareness. He had an above-average arm and a good concept of the game plan. Even with all that, he wasn't the guy to take them to a SB win either. The bottom line is we're all arguing about something pointless. Neither was good enough. At certain things one guy was better than the other, but neither was good enough.

Above all do NOT give up next year's first rounder. That's likely to be a very high pick, and it could be the one where the Bills finally get their QB, adding that guy to the strong foundation from the 2017 and 2018 drafts. Playoffs in 2019 with the rookie taking over mid-year, and SB in 2020.

Yes, certainly. Only the fourth best Bills RB (after OJ, Cookie, Thurman -- can't rate Shady yet) but still the most heart and drive of any Bill during that era.

Yes, I miss them. You can still watch a game and enjoy it without them, but the cheerleaders add to the overall experience.

I'm hearing here about a lot of scenarios where we give up three firsts and more in order to take the fourth best QB. Seriously, that is a desperation move, and unless lightning strikes and the guy turns out great, a killer for the franchise for years to come. If one of the guys the Bills truly want is available even for a very high price, they should make the deal. If they'd be settling for someone, use the picks to build the team.