Sisyphean Bills

Well, there are lots of differences of opinion on just about everything. Many posters will applaud and even defend with strident insistence the notion of "saving money" when players leave.

It looks like he is using the list of "rookie" QBs (the list included Doug Flutie's 1998 season, and he was not a rookie), who threw 300+ passes. Here is SJBF's link. http://www.sportingc...t-20-years.aspx Well, there is a big difference between quarterback rating differential and a list of quarterback ratings over 20 years including qualifiers. QB rating differential is the difference between opposing teams in the same season. The latter begs the question of what the qualifiers are for, how large do you weigh rule changes and other changes in the game itself, and whether there is an agenda for the list maker. How can one look at a list with Rick Mirer, Tim Couch, and Brandon Weeden as 3 of the "best" QBs without a hint of skepticism? How is it Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning are not on the list? Andrew Luck carried his team as a rookie, as evidenced by his average passing yards per game, but looks average on this list. Then there is the inclusion of the well-worn veteran Doug Flutie. Here is a list of QB ratings for 2013. http://www.pro-footb...013/passing.htm EJ Manuel is 29th on this list putting him between Christian Ponder and Jason Campbell.

Well, someone has to be line-leader to the training room tub.

He goes up for the ball too aggressively. We need a guy that will go down in a fetal position when breathed upon and then scream for a flag. I lied.

Maybe he will go early. But, I think that makes the 28th guy that is "certain to go before #9".

Nothing beats pitch-and-catch in your own backfield with an imploding pocket.

Why? Would we get to borrow Tom Brady or something?

Well, that sucks. How are we going to get him to sign a second contract now?

Wouldn't the title "most mediocre" belong to a team that hasn't won big, lost big, and is wedged in the 16 to 21 range? Being 3rd worst suggests striving for less than mediocreness.

He's quicker than a quick draw artist. Al Davis is lovin' it.

Is that near LA?

But, the 3 backs were back. CJ, Freddy, and Tashard. (Choice was let go and was snapped up by a playoff team.) Which weapons were gone? Brad Smith? Ruvell Martin? Dave Nelson? Donald Jones retired because of serious health issues. He had 2x the production of the 3 mentioned above combined, but I'm not sure who'd really think he was a serious "weapon". I don't know BC. It seems like a lot of the offensive skills players, other than the entire depth chart at QB, were back.

Yes. Several people on this board could've told him how the Colin Brown experiment would go down.

Do you think Ralph pockets all $25 million, or does he kick some to his inner circle?

Ironically, the numbers show that Fitpatrick did slowly "improve". But, like you say, that's only the statistics. The number doesn't convey Fitzpatrick's propensity to deliver the un-clutch play at the worst moment and lose games. My question would be if Gailey could've continued to tweak Fitzpatrick in the right direction. It's unanswerable at this point. But, if he gets into the upper 80s or low 90s, is this a playoff team? The fans wouldn't have stood for it. And, the promotion of Wannstedt from underachieving LB coach to horrific DC, who the players totally quit on, was a guaranteed termination type bad decision by Chan.

Still, we don't have to conflate "hating EJ" with wanting ample talent at the QB position for the team to win. The two things are not related. One can like and respect EJ very much and think he'll develop into a solid pro, but also hold the opinion that he isn't ready yet and that there might be legitimately better alternatives. On the other hand, one can also believe that Manuel is the absolute best alternative bar none and the search is over. As far as the "they'll all be gone" point, that may be true or it might not. It just smacks a bit of defeatism to keep reading that there may be no way the Bills could draft a great QB. After all, Jim Kelly wasn't drafted in the top 10 and he wasn't all that bad.

Agreed. Kevin Kolb was a veteran backup plan, not the Bills version of Brett Favre. Most new coaching staffs don't have the luxury of bringing along a QB slowly anymore. Most new coaching staffs come into a situation of losing, hence the open job, and don't have a Hall-of-Fame caliber QB already on the roster to lead the team to the playoffs. If they don't get it right, they are out the door too soon to develop anyone, and the next staff in will not be beholden to the decisions of the last, fired middle management group.

Depends on how invested one is in Manuel, I guess, but I did include the smiley. Point being that being the best QB (pre-draft evaluation) in a really weak class doesn't necessarily equate to being a top-10 QB talent in the next draft. It gets to the whole, "does one draft to build a winner or to fill holes?" argument that happens every off-season here.

It takes many bold moves to build a team and transform a culture. The chance that there is a QB on the board in the top 10 this draft, who grades out higher than Manuel did last draft, may not be as vanishingly small as some might think. Or, it may be that the Bills think Manuel is the best QB prospect since John Elway.

Argue the case; don't build strawmen. And, I think you are wrong or misunderstanding or trying hard deliberately misconstrue what I wrote and meant. Fine. Let's make a list: Ryan, Flacco, Newton, Dalton, Stafford, Luck, Tannehill, Smith, Wilson, Glennon, Griffin, and other first round picks in recent years have all come into the NFL and played immediately. Just like Manuel. The results vary. Some have failed, but many have been effective. This isn't the NFL of 10 or 20 years ago. Owners/presidents are pulling the trigger faster than ever, and coaches have to be capable of doing the same. That is the gist of this thread, btw. Bully for them. If they are wrong, I, for one, will not be surprised to see a new regime soon. So, basically all the bases are covered here. There is a possibility the Bills need to go in another direction and draft a QB high. But, disagree with posts suggesting the same thing with banalities like "only Andrew Luck and Cam Newton look like true franchise quarterbacks." Happy New Year.

I think you're shoving words in my mouth too fast here. I never said anything about "franchise QBs". I never made lists nor did I create artificial levels and cherry pick. I never said anything about it being a perfect science. Nor did I imply that there is 100% success rate. What I said was exactly the opposite, in fact. Thanks for backing me up that it is far from 100% certain that EJ Manuel is going to be a franchise QB. Yes, it is NOT an exact science and there is no reason to assume that the Bills (or you) got it right with Manuel at this point. He looked stinky bad at times this season and has a very long way to go. Let's be clear: Manuel is not a given. (I know you personally liked him and are invested in that sense.) I fully expect that the Bills coaches will be working with him to make him a better player this off-season. It's obvious that he needs the work. It's a no-brainer to say this is going to occur. Still, Marrone's regime's fate rests entirely on results. He knows this, as he said it crystal clear in the year-end PC. Brandon even rammed it home multiple times in multiple ways that there is an urgency for improvement on the field and Doug and Doug were responsible to deliver that result. It's not that big of a stretch to connect the dots that Marrone's survival rests largely on how the QB situation for the team is addressed. The tone of that press conference was not one of the brain trust triplets taking a long view of hoping a project will pan out in 5 or 6 seasons. It was not another Buddy or Marv PC where the message was patience and pain. I don't take them for idiots; they surely know that the chances the team undergoes a change in ownership in the next 5 or 6 years are very high. At the present moment, Manuel may be their best option at the position, but they'd be fools to cavalierly pass up better options.

Can sign and trade Herschel Walker to the Vikings too.

It worked well with Wannstache. I was going to say that Manuel looks like the perfect fit for a vertical passing game though.

Brees was always a good QB. As was Steve Young. Some people didn't and don't see that however. The Bucs problem when Young played under Leeman Bennett were not Steve Young. The guy "struggled" because he was in a system that didn't use his skill set well and he was surrounded by a really awful team. The Brees case is similar, but arguably to a lesser degree. It is well known that Martyball is about the running game. LaDainian Tomlinson was "the guy" then. I wasn't trying to imply that Drew Brees had no skills, but he wasn't destroying the record books in the Martyball offense. He gets with Sean Payton and he's lighting it up, annihilating record books, putting up league MVP numbers, winning Super Bowls... Not a different guy, but statistically on a different plane. I've also heard Rich Gannon really praise Jon Gruden and how he helped him to become an MVP sort of player at the position. I think he fits what I am driving at above as well. He was a scrub under Jerry Burns, who was not a WCO coach. Denny Green installs the WCO and he has a pretty good season. He then moves on the the Richie Petitbon train wreck, then languished for a few years of Martyball. (He wasn't the QB with the howitzer arm that could throw it over the top consistently.) It wasn't until he finally ends up in Oakland and playing in the WCO under Gruden that he finally regains his standing as an excellent QB that has the short-range accuracy and cerebral talent to dissect defenses. If not for the Tuck Rule and the Gruden trade, he might have won a ring for the notorious kings of dysfunction.

Sometimes there really is a square peg and round hole situation. Brees' emergence in Sean Payton's system is obvious, but consider that Marty Schottenheimer and Cam Cameron ran a much different style of offense. FWIW, fixing poor mechanics and accuracy problems isn't a snap. Josh Freeman being a recent example of a guy who has struggled.