dubs

Thank. God. Honestly can't wait to see this kid learn and progress. Despite my feeling that the playoffs were there for us this year if EJ didn't get hurt or we had better backup plans, I would consider this season an enormous success if by January we saw huge improvements in EJ. Go Bills!

Not much. Like I said, my only complaint is that instead of waiting until JT crapped the bed in Cleveland to bring in backups, we should have picked the best of the worst prior to week 4 of the preseason with the intention of him being the backup for the year. That's really the only thing I have an issue I with. I don't think that's hindsight either. Other teams regularly do that. If Tuel got pressed into service during the course of a game where TWO QBs were hurt and we had to bring him in, then fine, no problemo. Not much you can do about that. Either way, let's hope we are out of the woods with this and EJ comes back strong and JT becomes a quality backup with some time (years) to improve.

haha! I know he's not very good either. Go back and read the Bill Barnwell article on Jeff Tuel and the history of UDFA Rookies in the NFL. That's a pretty good summary of how I feel about it. It's more about chance of success. I just happen to believe that an experienced NFL vet with 6 weeks to prepare as a backup would have had a much better chance to succeed in relief of Manuel during the Cleveland game (and 9 weeks to prepare for KC). There has almost never, in the history of the NFL, been a UDFA rookie who has performed well (according to Barnwell, who I have a lot of respect for). Jeff Garcia is the lone exception. I'd rather not take a hail mary on Tuel.

That's exactly my point! Tuel has ZERO experience so what else would you expect? All we have to go on is the 1.25 games and the results are an abject failure.

I'm not outraged at all. But comparing Tuel's results to any of the guys mentioned is just lunacy. Tuel's stats: 26/59 for a 44.1% completion percentage and 309 yards. That's an average of 5.24 per attempt. He's got 1 TD and 3 INTs. A QBR of 9.6 and QB Rating of 45.1.

Same here, I do respect your opinion, but do believe differently. Here's my argument in a nutshell. Tuel had very little success in college. He wasn't highly thought of coming out of school. He plays the highest profile position, a position that every team is consistently trying to find an answer for (now and in the future), yet he didn't even get drafted. He didn't get drafted in a draft that the consensus said was one of the weakest QB drafts in a very long time. In other words, Tuel was a player that was signed to the PS to try and develop into a future backup (as was stated on this board numerous times). Then comes the eye test. Positives: He displays some confidence. He makes pretty quick decisions. He's fairly athletic. Negatives: He has a very weak arm. While he makes quick decisions, they aren't necessarily the right ones. He has a difficult time hitting intermediate routes because of his arm strength shortcomings. Even on that 3rd and 1 play, Marrone said the ball was supposed to go to Stevie, but the snap was low so Tuel went to Graham. Seriously? So while I really don't mind signing him and stashing him on the PS, I don't see any history or evidence that he could be counted on to win games NOW. That's the operative word. While other guys out there via Free Agency weren't Tom Brady or Drew Brees, they have experience, physical tools, and have had some level of success. At the very least many of them have won big games in college and some in the NFL. It's obviously not a good situation, but I'd rather have a guy back there that's demonstrated some success and tools that rolling out a complete unknown. The argument that feel is incorrect is when some posters are confusing potential with ability to play now. People are correct in saying that most of these Vets have shown their ceiling and it's not that sweet. But at least you know what you are getting and you are not signing Brady Quinn to be the savior of the franchise. You are signing him because he's been in the league for years, started games, has a pretty good arm, knows how to read a defense better than a rookie who has never taken an NFL snap, and can step in and hopefully manage the game for a couple weeks. Tuel played in a single-read spread offense in college. That's night and day compared to the NFL. The reason why it's frustrating is because I do believe that is the minute Kolb went down the FO went out and picked up someone as a backup, he would have been prepared to step in during the Cleveland game.

Um…I've identified about 7. As I said before, simply because you say that these guys wouldn't be better than Tuel doesn't mean they wouldn't be better. It's my belief that if when Kolb went down and we brought in any of them that I've mentioned and kept him in the roster through the first 5 games, that when EJ was injured in the Cleveland game we would have had a much better chance of winning.

I think his point is that there were a number of QBs available. Just because posters dismiss those QBs doesn't mean they are correct. FTL is absolutely correct on his timeline. Tuel was the primary backup for the following games, with the starter in parenthesis: New England (Manuel) Carolina (Manuel) Jets (Manuel) Baltimore (Manuel) Cleveland (Manuel, ended up playing) Cincy (Lewis) Miami (Lewis) New Orleans (Lewis) In other words, he's been the primary backup the entire year except for the game he started. I don't understand how people on this board think that's ok. Manuel was already coming off an injury which increases the chances that Tuel is going to be needed. We all love an underdog story and everyone loves the possibility that a kid could come in and be a diamond in the rough, but potentially putting the fate of the season in the hands of an undrafted rookie QB who has a weak arm is mind boggling. While I completely agree that what was left via Free Agency isn't that great, I think it's worlds better than Tuel. Dare I say look at what the Jets did this year knowing that Geno was going to be starting as a rookie. They've had 2 veterans backing him up!! Garrard and Quinn, and a young guy, Simms.

He's not getting killed cause Buffalo lost. I give him a lot of credit. He's way in over his head and didn't back down. He's getting killed because he was put into service to play and has no business being in the nfl. Kid is an arena league QB at best.

Fair enough and thanks for the post. These are exactly the types of posts that facilitate an informed conversation with differing opinions. Just to be clear, I'm very happy with Marrone and Whaley. I think the last few draft classes have been good and can be great. I like culture they are building. The only mistake that I see and I think it's a mistake made because Marrone wants to win with this team, is putting Tuel in any game barring two QBs getting injured. I can understand and think its a good idea to sign a QB each year like Tuel. You never know what can happen, as you pointed out. I just happen to believe that almost any veteran QB would be a better solution and should have been on the team. Leinart is just a name. Could be V Young, D Carr, D Garrard, B Quinn, etc. Anyway, thanks again for the post and my bad if my last one sounded a little snarky.

He's absolutely right in all of his points. Keep Leinart or someone similar = yes Tuel is terrible. Anyone watching him throw should see that. It has nothing to do with the result. He has no velocity on his passes. He puts way to much air under the ball. He consistently overthrew intermediate routes and under threw deep ones, except for the one long completion. All scouting reports indicated as much prior to him coming into league. He has no track record of success. Just curious, what do you see in him that inspires confidence? The issue I have is that the coaching staff and front office should know this and see this and never put him in that position. Ever.

Being reasonable and making sense doesn't get you a lot of support around here. But I, for one, am completely with you. Anyone who watched that game with an unbiased set of eyes would be, at best, VERY skeptical that Tuel can be a successful QB. The scouting reports you posted pretty much matched exactly what we witnessed in his two games. I was shocked at how bad his arm was. Expectations around here are so low that Jeff Tuel gets support because he, "did better than I thought he would". Unfortunately for the Bills, that doesn't win games in the NFL. Personally I'd rather roll with someone who at least has some physical tools to compete with NFL caliber athletes. Let's hope this becomes irrelevant and he never sees the field again.

Save money on sun screen and put that money on the field.

I don't think this team is far away. As far as positions go, we need (IMHO): 1) WR - in the big body mold. Having a guy that the QB can trust to put the ball up and they can win one on one battles is a huge security blanket! 2) TE - same reason as WR. 3) LB - we've improved here, but could use some depth. 4) CB - DEPTH! 5) OL - DEPTH and maybe a replacement for our LG. As far as intangibles, I think the bills need a couple things: 1) Time and experience 2) Understanding what it takes to win close games 3) Whatever characteristic it is that guys on good teams have when they simply make plays in big spots. From tough catches, to turnover, to breaking tackles.

I agree with you on this and I think you hit the nail on the head. The only thing that I criticize them on is not bringing in a guy earlier on, understanding that the guys they have in place are all injury prone or their style of play makes them susceptible to injury. That's the smart play. It's the most important position in sports. When Kolb AND EJ were hurt, they needed to do something other than hope EJ heals quickly or Thad doesn't get hurt. Anytime you are one play away from having Tuel get on the field it's a bad situation. But I do agree, it's a lot of back luck too. I do! My friends sister actually was the one that found Billy Joe Hobert's play book. That was a disaster as well.

Do you (and anyone else defending Tuel), really think he belongs in the game and would do a better job than any number of veteran backups out there? For those of you new to football, here's generally how employing at the QB position goes. Starters are proven guys or guys who have been drafted high, or someone who has demonstrated a lot of potential and it's finally their time to show what they can do. Primary backups are usually the capable veterans or younger guys on the upswing. Guys that have sat for a while and learned the offense. 3rd String/Practice Squad guys almost never see the field and are on the team to stash for development. The FO likes something they see and want to take some time to develop their skills. If they ever get pressed into duty for a game (usually both QBs in front of them get hurt during a game), then a team brings in other guys to bridge the gap between then and the time a more capable backup or starter already on the team comes back. What category do you think Jeff Tuel is in? Correct, PS. The guys out there unsigned are not unsigned because teams put the best three QBs for right now on the team, it's because they follow this model and they available guys are not going to be on the PS of any team. However, they would be improvements over most team's developmental QBs. Following this logic, you can see that Tuel should never have been pressed into service. He should have been 3rd string the whole year, as soon as we knew Kolb was out. We don't need a guy learning the game on the fly like that. They need a guy that can bridge the gap for a game or two. You bring in a guy like David Carr or David Garrard or Brady Quinn, a guy with experience, some success, decent physical tools, and we have a better chance of winning both the Cleveland game and the KC game. That's on the FO, not Tuel. He did the best he could, I believe.

Got it. Good analysis.

I hope you're right man. I really do. I'm actually pretty positive on this team and the direction of it. Just not having an UDFA rookie who should be on the PS, at best, taking live snaps. While it's obviously not a good situation having to pick up a veteran off final cuts or during the year, I think it's preferable to what the Bills did. Experience, some good physical traits, years of reading NFL defenses and knowing the speed of the game is what you need in a backup.

Honestly, if you think Tuel has potential that's a problem. All of those guys would have been a MUCH better solution. But if you're dug in on loving Tuel there's not much anyone can say to discourage you. Leinart was here for about 48 hours prior to a preseason game. He was never given a chance. He was here to take snaps, period. Tuel is honestly the worst QB I've seen in a Bills uni in 30 years. Maybe he gets better, and I hope he does. Really, I have nothing against him. It was just tough watching him.

Better options and insurance for Manuel than Tuel? The list is pretty long. Carr, Quinn, leftwich, Leinart, V Young, etc...

Really? Really? Seneca Wallace: very good college career, drafted in 4th round, been in the league since 2003, started 21 games, thrown for almost 5000 yards in his career, 31TDs and 19INTs. Almost a 60% completion rate. Jeff Tuel: had a horrible college career. Never started an NFL game, got completely owned in his only live action, has a weak arm, should never have been in that position. Not even remotely comparable situations.

See Bears, November 4, 2013 And that was a perfect demonstration of how you run the ball from the 1. I hope Hackett is watching. Spread em out, create space

Bears from the 1, second down: And that was a perfect demonstration of how you run the ball from the 1. I hope Hackett is watching.

The Tuel debacle notwithstanding, I like where this team is headed. We just need to make sure we don't have any more High School QBs under center for the Bills anymore. In Summary - no UDFA rookie QBs. No Tuel.

My final post on this: I don't really blame Tuel for that play. I think it was a very difficult situation for a guy of his caliber and he should never have been asked to make that play. The coaches need to better understand the situation and understand that 13-3 with a chance at 17-3 if we punch it in via run is not a bad situation given the way out defense was playing and how inept KC looked. My issue with Tuel and why I was outspoken on this is because I just don't see him having the basic physical tools to be an NFL QB. Maybe in the long run he does and I'm wrong, but right now it's clear he doesn't. If they want to stash him on the PS, that's fine. I don't think we necessarily have to cut him.