MARCELL DAREUS POWER

no. this is for the hypocritical christian right.... people labor, not inanimate objects.... :sick: :sick:

im still waiting for the hammer in my garage to create millions instead of just sitting there. get back to me on solving this dilemma of basic physics...lol :wallbash:

BTW, IM NOT A CHRISTIAN... "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matthew 7:13 "If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." -Proverbs 21:13 　 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9 　 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24 　 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" -Matthew 19:23-24 　 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'" -Matthew 25:41-45 　 "He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." -Proverbs 17:5 　 "He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty." -Proverbs 22:16 　 "Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -Matthew 19:21 　 "He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." -Proverbs 28:27 　 "People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -1 Timothy 6:9-10 　 "Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." -1 Timothy 6:17-19 　 "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." -Ezekiel 16:49 　 "Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all." -Proverbs 22:2 　 "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." -Proverbs 14:31 　 "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." -Proverbs 22:9 　 "Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse." -Proverbs 28:6 　 "A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished." -Proverbs 28:20 　 "The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." -Proverbs 29:7 　 "Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death." -Proverbs 11:4 　 "Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them." -Proverbs 22:22-23 　 "Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle." -Proverbs 23:4-5 　 "Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless." -Ecclesiastes 5:10 　 "A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold." -Proverbs 22:1 　 "There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." -Deuteronomy 15:11 　 "Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have." -Hebrews 13:5 　 "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge." -Psalm 14:6 　 "He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and He will reward him for what he has done." -Proverbs 19:17 　 "A rich man may be wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has discernment sees through him." -Proverbs 28:11 　 "A fortune made by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a deadly snare." -Proverbs 21:6 　 "The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall." -Proverbs 18:11 :blink: :wallbash:

which is substantially less than what they actually produced. ie, my work is worth 100$, but i only get 10$ as a wage. this is why i previously pointed out that capital does not deserve profits because its not productive. if it were, than my tools in the garage would create thousands instead of just sitting there... the state enforces this absured notion of privated property with, you guessed it, exploited labors tax money. its a double hit. not only do you lose the wealth of your labor, you get taxed so the business is allowed to steal from you. the protection of theft is coming from your work....

i never said they do. i said if you worked for something than yes, you deserve the fruit of your labor. the reason this is wrong is because its forced theft from the state, and doubled down when you pay taxes to protect that theft.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." Matthew 7:13 "If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." -Proverbs 21:13 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." -Proverbs 31:8-9 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -Matthew 6:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" -Matthew 19:23-24 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'" -Matthew 25:41-45 "He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished." -Proverbs 17:5 "He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty." -Proverbs 22:16 "Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" -Matthew 19:21 "He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." -Proverbs 28:27 "People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." -1 Timothy 6:9-10 "Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." -1 Timothy 6:17-19 "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." -Ezekiel 16:49 "Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all." -Proverbs 22:2 "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God." -Proverbs 14:31 "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor." -Proverbs 22:9 "Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse." -Proverbs 28:6 "A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished." -Proverbs 28:20 "The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern." -Proverbs 29:7 "Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death." -Proverbs 11:4 "Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them." -Proverbs 22:22-23 "Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle." -Proverbs 23:4-5 "Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless." -Ecclesiastes 5:10 "A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold." -Proverbs 22:1 "There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." -Deuteronomy 15:11 "Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have." -Hebrews 13:5 "You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge." -Psalm 14:6 "He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and He will reward him for what he has done." -Proverbs 19:17 "A rich man may be wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has discernment sees through him." -Proverbs 28:11 "A fortune made by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a deadly snare." -Proverbs 21:6 "The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall." -Proverbs 18:11

we get it now. you want a free ride!

please respond with an argument, not 5th grade bs...

ad hom?.... anyone who wants somethig for nothing. management- we have gone over this. you need a reason, like expertise or aptitude, for this. or consent. shareholders- yes. this is ad hom. all production comes from labor, so what you just said is in reality, factually untrue. of course its coercion, the state protects the means of production, with tax payer money coming from labor. its parasitic. you are trying to justify rewards for doing nothing, you assume capital is productive, its not. again, its ironic because in reality the capitalist is the freeloader, yet you spew this nonsense.... its a joke... "Capital, tools, and machinery are likewise unproductive. . . The proprietor who asks to be rewarded for the use of a tool or for the productive power of his land, takes for granted, then, that which is radically false; namely, that capital produces by its own effort -- and, in taking pay for this imaginary product, he literally receives something for nothing." [What is Property?, p. 169] As Proudhon put it, "[w]ho is entitled to the rent of the land? The producer of the land, without doubt. Who made the land? God. Then, proprietor, retire!" [Op. Cit., p. 104] Much the same can be said of "capital" (workplaces, machinery, etc.) as well. The capitalist, argued Berkman, "gives you a job; that is permission to work in the factory or mill which was not built by him but by other workers like yourself. And for that permission you help to support him for the rest of your life or as long as you work for him." [What is Anarchism?, p. 14] this is a reductio ad absurdum.... this theory entails me buying a candybar at walmart and then owning all walmart( including its workers). its a sick, sick joke!!!...

As Proudhon put it, "[w]ho is entitled to the rent of the land? The producer of the land, without doubt. Who made the land? God. Then, proprietor, retire!" [Op. Cit., p. 104] Much the same can be said of "capital" (workplaces, machinery, etc.) as well. The capitalist, argued Berkman, "gives you a job; that is permission to work in the factory or mill which was not built by him but by other workers like yourself. And for that permission you help to support him for the rest of your life or as long as you work for him." [What is Anarchism?, p. 14] "Capital, tools, and machinery are likewise unproductive . . . The proprietor who asks to be rewarded for the use of a tool or for the productive power of his land, takes for granted, then, that which is radically false; namely, that capital produces by its own effort - and, in taking pay for this imaginary product, he literally receives something for nothing." [What is Property?, p. 169] "In other words, capitalist economics tries to confuse the owners of capital with the machinery they own. Unlike labour, whose "ownership" cannot be separated from the productive activities being done, capital and land can be rewarded without their owners actually doing anything productive at all." -anarchist faq As David Schweickart puts it, "'providing capital' means nothing more than 'allowing it to be used.' But an act of granting permission, in and of itself, is not a productive activity. If labourers cease to labour, production ceases in any society. But if owners cease to grant permission, production is affected only if their authority over the means of production is respected." [Against Capitalism, p. 11]

i think this is just to simplistic. a shirt is a shirt, a shoe a shoe. i mean, should i put flashing lights on the shirt? the consumer will look at the bottom line. and because the cost of labor and raw materials are vastly more for me, i simply would not be able to compete. its analogous to a walmart bar opening under a new name and selling alcohol next to a small town bar at 5 cents a drink. the old small bar would be out of business in 2 weeks...

then why do all small businesses go bye bye when walmart comes to town?

you ignored a key tenet, the division of labor. all labor does produce capital, yet the capitalist is in charge(ie the state protecting the reward for doing nothing), not labor. this is why the capitalist is a freeloader and not labor. ie, the slave owner owns capital, and slaves produce everything, yet the slave owner is in charge. you put words in my mouth.... i said capital is finite. and capital is unproductive. this is shown in the flaw of marginal productivity theory. in the case of walmart starting a new business/or just expanding, then yes, all that capital is produced by labor. as walmart gets bigger, all capital is then generated by labor. meaning the capitalist is the freeloader. if you want, i would even argue only labor is productive and capital is not. the problem is initial capital. i dont have that ability.( workers are not in charge ). and even with the remote chance i got the money to buy a hypothetical bike shop or any small general store to compete with walmart, the co-op could not deliver prices as low as walmart. you see, capital can be a 100$ investment. but that is a finite value and will not sustain walmart. in fact, the 100$ is useless and produces nothing without the returns of labor, ie exploitation and extraction... but labor keeps working and working and working, while the capitalist does nothing. its a pyramid scheme. its a power structure with an assinine notion of private property that expands and never stops. this logical end would mean someone could conceptually spend 1$ and then own the world simply because they gave capital. its a joke... like the earlier example noted, which is ironic because the poster didnt realize this hurts capitalism, if someone drives me to work, even one time, do they now own my business. another example would be someone buying a candybar at walmart, do they now own all walmart? that is just ridiculous, yet thats exactly what marginal productivity theory states in capitalism.... this is what you (tom) said.---- at least here is what you should have said, because the above made no sense at all. "you just spent the whole thread explaining all capital is generated by labor, and anyone who wants infinite profits for finite capital is just a freeloader. ie non labor income. but you cant start your own company for lack of capital. so basically, youre saying gaining infinte profits from no work is being a freeloader." yes!!!! because im not in charge of my labor. lol..... sorry i had to make your last statement resemble actual logic and sense.... you need to understand that the state enforces the reward for doing nothing. ie, allowing someone to use your tools is not a productive act. its simply an act of structural power and advantage. ie marginal productiviy theory is incoherent and is facutally not productive. permission is not work, its hierarchy. a hammer, land, money, rent, none of this produces anything without returns on labor. a hammer or land will not produce anything by itself. this is the major distinction between private possesion and private property. private property here means the means of production, not a car, or personal hosue, candybar, etc. land, rent, and interest are forms of arbitrary power, not productivity.

!@#$in eh! this is america, dont advertise all you can eat if you cant do it! if he paid, then the restaurant broke its contract. oh well. enjoy your heart attack!

because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china...

this is such a great point. you cant tell people to go get a job or move out of your parents house if there is no work or people cant meet the qualifications. on one hand you are telling people to be self-reliant, and then you are not providing education...

i agree management plays a role. if there is aptitude, or required skill and consent. simply telling someone to do something, is not a reason for authority. aptitude and consent are needed. i had a desk job during my last 2 years or so in the coast guard. i had 3 people under me and i ran all pay issues/purchasing/budgeting/inventory/audits for our navigation team and the whole small boat station. it was a logistics job basically. to be honest though, this wasnt really a management position. jmo...

yes, i have done both. mostly blue collar bust your ass work. and no, i didnt talk to some dennys janitor for 20 minutes. im not a pretentious dick like some people here. i was a dishwasher for 1 year in the military, after i hurt my shoulder in swimmer school. i did roofing from age 15-20. i bought my own car. etc etc... please dont preach about hard work. believe me, i know. i despise the limousine liberal! i feel its the main reason people feel cynical about politics and gravitate toward the right. at least the right in some sense, sticks it in your face and can be more honest about life. liberals tend to be hypocritical, and offer bs non-offensive rhetoric...

in fact, it is incredibly ironic that you would say i never worked hard or had a blue collar job, when im sticking up for blue collar jobs. logically, i am in the best position to know what blue collar work is. this tells me or at least hints to two possibilities- 1-you have a conflict with labor and you feel guilty. 2- you dont understand the issue. here i am sticking up for vulnerable people, yes those evil people who go to the bar after work and only have 10$ to spend. and then you say i am lazy. this is a classic example of accusing that person of what they are arguing against. a classic propaganda technique. " those evil lazy workers" that lazy chomsky! call it a freudian slip, or call it being a complete douche...

please do not insult me and assume where i come from. i was in the military for 4 years and worked my ass off. before that i did roof jobs with my uncle and worked fast food. my parents couldnt afford college so i joined the military-(i didnt want to do this, ie, not my choice).... 1- yes people make bad choices, some people are lazy, some people commit crime, others do whatever. im talking about good people, so here, you are irrelevant. i never said there should be a free ride, or no accountability. 2- the nature of exploitation through how money is loaned, and how capital structure works, is on a level of ignorance that is borderline ubiquitous... so many people are taken advantage of simply because they dont know they are being ripped off. 3- i reject your analysis that unskilled work has a real choice. im not talking about choice in the sense that they could be a chemist one day. im talking about power to influence their wages and autonomy in the workplace. to their actual work value on a market. if that person has a problem, they are fired. so, the choice is, accept exploitation to keep the 10-15$ and hr, or get fired and not eat or at a minimum, face a strong possibilty of being evicted from his/her apartment. at an absolute minimum, you logically must admit, you take a big risk quitting your job. there is a difference between choice, and autonomy/desire/moral agency. this is just flat on its face wrong and disturbing when you look at sweat shops overseas. the choice there is on most levels work or die. this is not a free choice. 4- again, given the choice, workers would rather make what they are actually worth. obviously. - 70% of the workforce hates their job. they literally hate it. so, why do they work there? you need to square that problem.

no. i said capital is finite, and after a short period of time, labor is the sole source of capital. this is simple math/logic/fact. my work would be buying the materials for the bike.

what a joke....

no, sometimes institutions get to big. this is why govt has so much waste. there is no real market incentive, and accountability on that scale is just crazy. read eichmann in jerusalem. anyone thats been in the military or navy knows this. this creates bureaucratic problems. a collective action- problem. a system of 100 people is easier than a system of 20,000. so, for example, you might compartmentalize according to what currency that part of the business is in. ie different leadership checks for different costs of living areas, surrounding business, resource availability and cost, etc. 10 smaller parts work better than 1 big part. obviously this is very complicated, but thats a simple short answer. no. im not a communist or leninist. i believe in markets and individuals should be free to start or leave a union.

is this a capitalsit structure? ie shareholders? business owner? is this a co-op? i would imagine you would create a co-op constitution. 1- you cant vote out other jobs, rather only market forces will let that person make that decision. ie, if a persons wage gets low enough, because profits are going down, then they might walk away from that co-op.