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geez, you've been trying to pick fights ever since i questioned Jethro Tull and, of course, by extension, had it in for you, Jim. as part of my research, i went into it wondering, "geez, how do i get under Chef Jim's skin, because I really think he needs to be knocked down a few pegs." so, i called up a few people you knew, privately polled a bunch of people on the board, and voila, i came up with Jethro Tull. "yep, that'll get him." but, i figured, i won't put them at the top of my over-rated list, because then what would be the point. making them No. 1, would ruin the whole purpose of this thread, because after all, it's all about you Jim. and in order to get your attention right off the bat, i came up with the idea of putting Jethro Tull 10th on the over-rated list. that way, we can all put up with the whining right from the beginning. yep, mission accomplished. the stones over-rated. couldn't have timed it any better. jw

saw Asia. was underwhelmed. played like an hour set. for all their talent, they never achieved any type of potential. their debut album was much hyped, but Asia never reached any sort of critical mass of respect. so if there's much consensus that Asia wasn't much of anything at all, well, that doesn't make them over-rated in my definition. back to another topic discussed here, in regards to The Clash and some on the right adopting "Guns of Brixton" as an anthem. there's more than a hint of hypocrisy here, no? the uprising in Brixton in the early 1980s was a conflict of frustration directed at, in part, to Maggie Thatcher and her economic policies. there was more to it -- calls of racism -- than that, of course, but no need to spell it all out. to have someone on the right adopt these lyrics, this song and The Clash, continues a trend by those who like to co-opt the past and have it fit their own agendas. it's square-pegs in round-hole obliviousness that panders to the choir. what's next, the right holding a Woody Guthrie revival? jw

and now, for No. 7s on the list: over-rated No. 7: The Doors aside from a few classics, "Roadhouse Blues," perhaps the opening yelp on "Touch Me," and the near-forgotten but good "Peace Frog," there's very little here that stands up to the test of time. even "Touch Me" stumbles as an over-produced sugary mound of stringy dreck in some places. same with the pseudo-psychedelia of "Light My Fire." a minute-long organ solo -- even if you want to call it a solo -- is quite lamentable and banal. what truly stands out is their many cloyingly unlistenable misses: "The Crystal Ship." "Love Street" "End of the Night." "The Spy." ... need i go on? though Morrison had a presence and was capable of "pi**ing off" and "pi**ing on" people, i'm not entirely sure whether he was more style over substance, more poser without a picture frame. why Oliver Stone elected to pay homage to Jim, and why Jim's gravesite has turned into a shrine, i'm not sure. the Doors' legend seems more to do with Morrison's antics and less with their sound. and i hate to be bringing this all up at a time so soon after Ray Manzerek died. for a band that doesn't have an entirely large library, there's far too many duds for my liking to live up to what, in my opinion, appears to be generational hype. Under-rated No. 7: T-Rex curiously, coming out the same time as The Doors, and featuring a bluesy, glam-rock edge, T-Rex and Marc Bolan wound up being far more focused, far grittier and far more influential. one listen to any one of their songs can appreciate the drive behind anything from Bowie, the New York Dolls and Ramones. even The Smiths, a band i don't much like, consider Bolan an influence. part Box Tops part Johnny Thunders, part i don't know -- Cream? -- Bolan wrote distinctive songs many of which still stand up today. too bad Robert Palmer seemed to be the only one who really noticed. for shame, rock and roll hall of fame. do a search of T-Rex on the hall's website and here's one link that comes up: "One Hit Wonders and the Songs that Shaped Rock and Roll." under the list, there's one T-Rex song (Bang a Gong, of course). guess, the folks in Cleveland were too busy trying to find more than two Doors songs to fit in their catalogue. ugh. jw

total sellout. for somone who was the voice of the Pretenders, she never really seemed capable of following the dirty job through. rather than re-invigorating the band after Honeywell-Scott and Farndon died, she took over and generated a bunch of soft-pop baloney. very nearly put them on the over-rated list, but my conscience wouldn't allow it. the first album was and still remains a rock and roll classic. as for Rock the Casbah, it's among my least favorite Clash songs. good points made by Buftex regarding the Middle Eastern sound. correct me if I'm wrong but Strummer was the son of a diplomat and was either born and/or spent a lot of his younger years in Morocco. ... i could be wrong. as for anyone wanting a little more on Strummer, check out the re-released compilation of songs of Strummer's pre-Clash band, "The Elgin 101ers." it's chalk full of good rock and roll songs, including the extremely good "Keys To Your Heart," versions 1 and 2. what rock and roll is all about. jw

really think you've got to give London Calling a good listen. it's one of the most complete albums front to back. they were the conscience of the second British invasion, and led by Joe Strummer, who presence and influence can't be under-rated before the Clash, during the Clash and following. He was a unique, noble and rock and roll soul. In fact, one of the few true important moments in recent Grammy history came immediately after Strummer died some 7-8 years ago. that's when Springsteen, Grohl and a whole host of true rock and rollers took the stage to bang out an electric version of "London Calling." what was sad about the moment is that it took the Grammy folk this long to pay any sort of real tribute to Strummer and The Clash. but then, the Grammy's did award its first heavy metal award to, the one and only, Jethro Tull ("Crest of a Wave" beat out Metallica's "And Justice for All). a year later, in accepting the second award, someone from Metallica thanked Tull for not putting out another record that year. it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. it echoed the true respect artists in the 1970s heaped on Stevie Wonder for dominating the Grammies, and seriously thanking Wonder for not putting out an album jw

what, no love for Mr. Roboto? ... jw but i do agree with your sentiment. i'm comfortable enough with my fandom to acknowledge there may even be one or two 'Mats songs i don't care for. ... but shhhhh, let's keep that between me and you.

but you're the one bent on trying to make this a pissing match. i warned people from the beginning i was going to step on some toes. heck, even if i went with the easy pickings of Beiber, Culture Club and Toto as being over-rated, there would always be someone here going ... but, but, no! these are not personal attacks, merely opinions. again, why so serious? that's true. it's a matter of perspective. at the time the Beatles were breaking up, i was just getting into music. and that music was country and western as my father had a large collection of Hank Williams and Johnny Cash albums. it was a good way to start. ... that said, i was among the rebels without a clue in the late 70s and 80s trying to convince myself that the Beatles and Led Zepplin and the Stones sucked only because it was the chic thing to say. i'm still a little leery about the Beatles in some ways in part because of their "stardom," and have difficulty appreciating what they meant to an entire generation of young fans and beyond. but i've done a complete 180 on Zepplin and the Stones. wow, they made some powerful music. jw

everything up to and including Eagles' Hotel California i consider to be very good. many good influences there, including Lowell George's involvement. in various regards, the Eagles enjoyed a corral of some of best song-writers of their era. ... beyond Hotel California, and particularly the solo projects, things tailed off very quickly. the lyrics were wrong to a certain degree: "once they checked out, they should've left." jw

you have a valid point, but i did further my explanation in a later post in regards to the excesses of Tull having no room in rock and roll: and, it was Jay, who provided this quote, with which I distinctly agreed with in being accurate in regards to my thought process. i couldn't have written it any better than as it was said in the movie "Almost Famous." "Did you know that "The Letter" by The Box Tops was a minute and 58 seconds long? Means nothing. Nil. But it takes them less than two minutes to accomplish what Jethro Tull takes hours to not accomplish! (pulls Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick from the shelf) You see this? This is fatuous, pseudo blubber! You know...which is fine, but...to foist it off as art -- Or The Doors? Jim Morrison? He's a drunken buffoon posing a poet. Aw. Give me the Guess Who. Come on. They got the courage to be drunken buffoons, which makes them poetic!" my apologies if i didn't explain myself entirely, but the flute was not the only thing, it was merely an example of the excesses of a band who's only redeemable quality, in my opinion, played an important role in inspiring the alternative, punk short two-minute crash and clamor sound that was made in taking the "Prog" out of rock, and putting the focus back on melody and rebellious message. jw

that's well put, i think. in my opinion, he's kinda like the Bono of U2, good at times, but has tendency to overpower and overshadow the rest of the band. jw ok, time to focus on work. putting together a running game story today.

nice play on words. saw them live in the early 80s. still one of my favorite shows. you make fair points, but after giving the Pearl Jam library one more spin, i couldn't go there and was forced in all good conscience to reconsider. jw

ok, let's get to the meat of the next matter: No. 8 over-rated: Green Day, the sellouts of Broadway. pseudo-punk pop posers exposed. for a band that certainly made its stamp with a keen ear for power pop, they allowed their self-indulgent marketing tendencies get the better of them through much of this past decade with two "concept" albums, the release of three "solo" albums and the decision to go-ahead with a Broadway production. whatever alternative cache they had ended there. oh, they're more popular than ever, luring a new audience with empty promises and tinny trinkets of some olde tyme punk-rock past. but it's soul-less and crass. they've allowed themselves to be grammy-fied, leaving me to wonder whether that wasn't the agenda all along. and i'm sure the rock and roll hall of fame will soon be calling, if it hasn't yet. rather than further pursue their roots which they attempted with such side projects as "The Foxboro Hot Tubs," they instead let their egos and bottom line desires get the better of them. Johnny Thunders et al, would be ashamed. tres too cool, i think. (Sidenote: on one of the early versions of compiling this list, i had Pearl Jam in this spot. in retrospect, that was unfair and undeserving. though there's only so much Eddie Vedder growl and distortioned anthems one can take in one sitting before becoming overburdened by ennui, their collection of songs stands up. at the very least they rebounded with their 2006 release "Pearl Jam" after ushering in the new millenium with the totally unlistenable -- and perhaps unpronounceable -- "Binaural." a knock against them is a tendency for being stuck in a rut. whereas David Grohl morphed into the Foo Fighters to carry on the rock and roll torch through a dreadful period of music in the 90s, and the Red Hot Chilli Peppers stretched their limits by putting out not one but two classic double albums, Pearl Jam seemingly kept trying to recapture the urgency of "10," which really wasn't their best album. Vs. was.) Under-rated No. 8 The English Beat. somewhat lost in the 2nd British Invasion, they weren't Elvis Costello or The Clash, and they certainly weren't UB40 or what eventually became of Madness post "One Step Beyond" -- and i'm referring to the MTV darling "Our House." The Beat deserve credit for releasing one of the most complete and listenable albums ever: "I Just Can't Stop It." what a rollicking, jazzy fury of toe-tapping songs that belie the underlying angst, drive and anger, bringing together echos of all their influences. The Clash might have led the charge in taking on Margaret Thatcher and the troubles in Brixton, but it was the Beat that did it with keen style with one wonderful song: "Whine & Grine" which segued into "Stand Down Margaret." beyond that, "Best Friend," "Jackpot" and their remake of "Tears of a Clown" are classics unto themselves. more musical than The Specials, not as sweet as the Jackson 5, and more important than whatever UB40 ever became. Unfortunately, the English Beat unraveled under their own disparate weight. what followed wasn't as complete as the whole that was. and yet, the impressions they left both in studio and live were unforgettable. jw

hate to say it, but need more than that. saying they suck without backing it up with examples and an argument leaves one to question why you think this might be so. The Beatles cannot be considered as being over-rated because they did more than foster an Ed Sullivan show craze. they pushed music forward by experimenting with genres before finding something that eventually came to be defined as their own sound. some of it was simple pop, but it was unpretentious pop, and rooted in RandB and country that preceded them. their other work experimented to varying degrees of success and failure with other brands of music. but there can be no arguing with such classics as "Norwegian Wood," "Help!" the very under-ratred "Paperback Writer" or the simple yet perfect "I Want to Hold Your Hand" as anything but over-rated. few bands have been able to craft such music and express it with such simplicity and resonance, no matter what the era. Hank Williams did it. Marshall Crenshaw tried and ran out of steam and melody. Nick Lowe, maybe. and the "sibling rivalry" between Lennon and McCartney, combined with the conscience of George Harrison and playfulness of Ringo Starr made this group click. not the greatest rock and roll band in my opinion, the Stones hold that title in my book, but still very good. jw more to come when i have time. please, i've not called you names or questioned your mental health simply because i called Jethro Tull over-rated. they are, in my opinion, so get a thicker skin ... and a less tinnier ear, perhaps. ... i'm kidding. whysoserious? jw

funny. and remove all hints of spice. jw

ok, let's get to the next on the list: most over-rated No. 9: coldplay could never understand what these precious melodies, sugar-cooked by dainty strings and chris martin's all-too-perfect voice ever did for advancing music. they're like the supertramp of our age, all excessive folly and style, and little substance; echo without the bunnymen, perhaps. let's all become gwenyth paltrow and coo and fawn over pseudo-important symphonic sap. really, it's all summed up in the opening bars of the maudlin "Fix You." this is less a band than a computer-generated version of what muzak aspired to provide: background noise for happy shoppers. most under-rated No. 9: The Cramps. from the opening rev of the engine of "Garbageman," this odd collective led by Lux Interior and Poison Ivy showed it meant serious business. inspired by the rockabilly sound of the late 1950s, the Cramps provided an intense and frighteningly sharp updated version on the genre. they were at the same time a distinct contrast to what the Stray Cats would be, and a sort of anti-thesis of The Beach Boys' sunshine surf pop songs that preceded them. they were dirty, grungy and shameless: three components required to make a dent in this business. drawing inspiration from everything from their most recent contemporaries the Ramones and T-Rex, and well beyond with Duane Eddy and Link Wray (two under-rated artists in their own right), the Cramps avoided wandering into the neighborhood of campiness. their rock and roll roots were well grounded, evidenced by the compilation albums they released in later years, featuring bands and songs that influenced them in an attempt to shed light on good, fun music nearly forgotten. bonus points, too, for their work with Alex Chilton. jw

you're kidding, right, in regards to who wrote Sussudio? my god, do people just put stuff out believing or hoping it to be true? jw as for the best song Peter Gabriel actually wrote, it's essentially a toss up between: Solsbury Hill and Biko.

from what you've heard isn't enough? i listed numerous songs that aren't either "Born In The USA" or off that album or "Tunnel of Love." give them a listen before going further in making accusations. as noted: many of his less popular songs can be regarded as under-rated. many. jw

hipster movement. is the one you're referring to when he went to Folsom County Prison to perform. or might it just be the "Boy Named Sue?" "Don't Take Your Guns to Town," "I Walk The Line," "Ring of Fire," or might it be when he teamed up with the Carter Family. or, might it be the rebel finger in the air pose he struck on a billboard in Nashville to share his disdain for the corporate sound? yes, him redoing "Hurt" saved his soul and reputation, given that his reputation as a "rocker/rebel" had already been established long before Rick Rubin got to him. Leave Johnny Cash off? Charlie Rich did to country music what essentially Michael MacDonald did to rock and the Doobie Brothers. jw

cannot at all agree with your contention that they were all horrible except for Belinda Carlisle. c'mon. Jane Wiedlen was the glue of the Go-Gos and the band's most under-rated member. and Gina Schock's drumming was spot on. and, here is your worst mistake: they didn't have people writing songs for them. they wrote their own. do your research before making these statements. jw

yikes. Springsteen, over-rated?!? easy to cherry pick his hits. more difficult to mine a little deeper to see the depth of his ability, starting with the "Darkness" album, followed up by the prolific "The River" and then "Nebraska." what a holy trinity of albums to come out from one man. all three classics. a case, in fact, could nearly be made that some of his best work is under-rated. "Point Blank." "Ramrod." the near perfect: "Stolen Car." "State Trooper. the actually perfect: "Open All Night." and he didn't stop there, no sir, by recapturing his voice, presence and roots with the back-to-back release of "The Rising" -- perhaps the most powerful post-9/11 album and one that had an underlying spiritual-style feel to it. the title track in itself is a wonderful song. and then add in "Mary's Place," and we're off -- and "Devils and Dust," which just might be his most complete solo album, which says a lot. Devils is his most mature, to say the least. there's hardly a dud among them. jeezus, The Rising's "Lonesome Day" just popped up. Wow. give that a listen. the albums that have followed have been duds, but it doesn't take away the solid collection of songs and influences Bruce has brought to rock and roll. as for this argument about music being subjective: geez, you think? so what. doesn't mean we can't have this discussion every once in a while. and in my defense of my choices, and my responses to some of the arguments being made here, simply trying to provide some personal perspective. let's face it, i called it "one man's insober list" and not "definitive." rock and roll music was born out of boredom and desperation out of the disenfranchised seeking a voice to define themselves. it's a democratizing and finger in the air art form that most anyone can attempt if they have a garage, guitar, amp (note: i didn't write flute.) and free time on their hands. this is my definition of what rock and roll is, an unsettling clamor of chords and lyrics to make us feel heard and/or young and relevant. there's no room for Jethro Tull excesses, and those that i believe deserve in filling out the next 9 spots. jw Nos. 9s coming tomorrow.

you do make a good case. thing is, his looks, style and voice helped pave the way for a swivel-shaking sound to become palatable to a larger audience searching for a face and voice. he might not deserve the crown, but his influence is importance in establishing the foundation of the music as we know it today. and it's difficult to fault Elvis entirely because anyone who would have had the misfortune of being caught up in that tidal wave would've been crushed by it's uncontrollable and massive wake. he helped start it, so credit to him. jw

no. definitely not on my list. outdated, more like it. jw

as noted, got more coming. thinking of releasing the latest Tuesday morning. a few thoughts: Elvis Presley can never be over-rated despite his long, slow, spiral into sloppiness. that said, i would suggest that he was the least interesting and least talented of the Sun Studios' Mount Rushmore rounded out by Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins and Jerry Lee Lewis. now those three could rock. funny, that everyone's debating my pick of Jethro Tull as being over-rated, and yet there is nothing here regarding Joan Jett as being my 10th under-rated artist. not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. from the beginning, Joan established herself as one heck of a rocker in her stint with the Runaways. she was their most talented member, trumping Lita Ford. and her body of work through the decades holds up. it's too bad some -- many? -- dismissed her as a one-trick pony because of the "Jukebox" song. in the end, she's outlasted Chrissie Hynde as a rocker, because Hynde's best days are far behind her and mostly limited to the Pretenders first album, which owed its success far more to James Honeywell Scott's grizzly guitar playing, and how it complemented Hynde's growl. Scott's passing, as well as Farndon's death soon after, took all the guts, glory and fuel out of this group, and most probably cost rock and roll fans a chance to see this band's full potential. (and no, the pretenders don't make my list of over-rated). oh, and anyone suggesting Elton John is "under-rated" has spent far too much time locked in a cold dark cellar without a radio, record, cassette and cd player for 40 years. geez, Elton John, under-rated. he's so "respected" in music circles that they parade him out to do duets with "artists" seeking to improve their reputation. and you know what, i read CREEM Magazine growing up. a wonderful magazine inspired by Mr. Bangs. gotta disagree there. but this is one person's opinion. what Metallica did in leading up and including their "Enter Sandman" album was important in ushering in a post-80s sound. both they and GNR's first album provided the bridge that amalgamated hair-metal and punk to push music forward. what followed hasn't been pretty, but ... cheap trick, sure. as for Natalie Maines, the Dixie Chicks can make a case for being somewhat under-rated, or perhaps, dismissed as a mere "country" group, or "that band that insulted Bush." but their record sales and the critical acclaim derived from their last album removes them from under-rated contention in my opinion. that said, their best album, "Home," is extremely under-rated. as for Maines, haven't picked up her new cd yet. am interested. hope it's better than the other two's debut Courtyard Hounds. that was very underwhelming, coming off as watered-down Sheryl Crow wanabes. even the name of their group seemed forced, jw

i can not and will not defend a flute in a discussion regarding rock and roll. and thanks for providing the link, which seems to lend further credence to my point and how out of place this excessive solo is. in fact, i'm starting to wonder whether i under-rated how over-rated tull just might be. jw

have to disagree on the Beach Boys, who helped revitalize American-based rock and roll at a time when the Brits began to dominate. never did anything really for anyone, which is why, i think they're neither over or under-rated. "Meh" just about sums them up. each top- and bottom-10 list is complete, and i'm pretty sure this is going to get ugly as we progress. jw