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that album with Krauss was a little spotty, but the times they clicked was more than worth it. and Fig, you'll have to remain patient on White Stripes. ... you'll see why later. jw

don't bother bbb. i've elected against responding to this poster in this thread, and his lil buddy who's jumped on for the ride. not worth the effort. jw

no, you've come out and stated: given this, your opinions cannot be taken seriously. jw ADD: you can continue digging as much as you like, but it's clear that you intend to be disagreeable in this thread. so there's no way i can tell when you are being serious or simply being a contrarian.

you have every right to speak your opinion. but pardon the rest of us for taking it with a full grain of salt, given that you've announced that your reason for posting in this thread is to specifically knock anyone regarded as a a rock and roll god. you've made your agenda quite clear, so now live with it. jw ADD: at this point, it's difficult to differentiate between you providing "your true opinion" and mere trolling.

in my opinion, there's one exceptionally good Old Crow song: "James River Blues." jw hell, i'm starting to question whether Jim can cook at all at this point.

right, i'm the naive one in assuming what i say is right. i can at least make a case to justify my arguments. you make your case by simply being a contrarian. i'm not in the position of making everyone happy here. you are making the case that you will do whatever it takes to disagree with me. that's essentially trolling. jw

why act like a troll? jw i've made my case. you've made yours by trolling.

quit trying to spark a reaction -- aka, trolling, baby. jw

yep jw

i'm supposed to respond to this? you've acknowledged that you will simply serve as a contrarian adding that anyone considered a "rock and roll god," you will essentially dismiss. is this not trolling? what a baby. jw you've put forward no case at the very least. you've taken a disagreeable tack throughout this entire thread, pretty much. so continue to strike that pose for all i care. you have given up whatever semblance of credibility when it comes to this thread. thanks, though, for setting the record straight.

so, let me get this straight, you've essentially acknowledged that you're trolling this thread. ... thanks, then, for making that clear. that certainly explains the schizophrenic nature of your posts. jw

i would not have recommended "Midnight Boom." Sorry for that, especially to begin with. there's rawness in the other two albums. listened to "No Wow" on a long road trip, and had to put it back on again just to make sure i understood it even more. While "Mean ... Side" is them finding their voice, in my opinion, "No Wow" is The Kills finding their maturity. glad you enjoyed them. jw what, nobody stepping up and defending Mumford and Sons. i'm absolutely shocked. shocked, i tell you ..

i'd be more interested on your take -- once this all over -- of the Kills, if you haven't had an opportunity to give then a listen. pick up either of the two albums i've references. i promise i will not steer you wrong. have heard of them, but haven't had a chance to sample. in fact, in researching the Kills for the sake of this thread, i happened upon the name Royal Trux. ... and this is the beauty, i think, of having these discussions. i'm learning, perhaps, just as much as we go along here. but pick up the Kills. man, they're good. jw

let's undo and do this: Over-rated No. 5: Mumford and Sons. what is this folk exercise in Gregorian chants. tepid at best, annoyingly cloying at worst. grumbles and drums. it's early Billy Joel with an irish wilt, sing-song blather formed to pretend depth. this over-rought baloney is enough to make me as angry as i was when i first elected to give their debut album a shot, and thankfully at a very affordable mark-down price. stuffed it into the car stereo and found myself hitting "next and next and next" over and over again until the album was spent. and giving them a listen one more time in forming this diatribe, my opinion of mumford and sons has not changed. how these unfinished, overly polished ditties -- don't call them songs -- for the tin-eared and naive reached some sort of popular acclaim is more a reflection of how far the Grammys have stooped in honor of the big dollar establishment. this is all antiseptic pap -- much like the lumineers, and yet not anything like the Decemberists, who are mature and ambitious enough to have made a formidable dent in their foray into this genre with true songs such as "All Arise!" and "Calamity Song," to name a mere few. mumford and sons just don't cut it, in my opinion: "Sigh No More," indeed. sing no more is more apt. take a stroll through the pubs in Temple Bar on a Friday night in Dublin, and you'll find dozens of these acts, some of them even better. or, better yet, spend an afternoon at the Cobblestone on the north side of the Liffey listening to the locals jam, and you'll get a much better idea and perspective of what good Irish-based folk music can aspire to. not this. never this: these pedestrian prodigies of pseudo-important pulp and underwhelming discharge. so, with that sour taste out of my mouth ... Under-rated No. 5: The Kills. No, not the Killers, and definitley not the White Stripes. this is a man-woman duo that accomplishes what Jack White wishes he could manufacture if he ever set down the great weight of his own ego. and it's no surprise that the Kills lead singer Alison Mosshart has fronted one of White's side projects, Dead Weather, which curiously pales to the drive and sheer raw power of the Kills. dirty, profane and bordering on ugly, Mosshart and guitarist Jamie Hince draw heavily upon a gritty foundation based on PJ Harvey and Patti Smith, with a big dabble of Lou Reed (give their version of "Pale Blue Eyes" a listen). Hince's grumbling guitar and Mosshart's off-key yet sweet voice are a near-perfect complement in producing blues-based rock and roll sound. their music is complex in its simplicity, a rumble for a back beat, a sparse guitar and we're off from the first note, as evidenced in the first song, Superstition," off their debut album Keep on Your Mean Side. and then it gets meaner and better. No Wow is a near perfect release of bitter grit and melody. and it's the latter -- actual melody -- that separates The Kills from their disparate contemporaries. rather than making noise for noise's sake, the Kills actually find the off-key nuances to make their sound accessible. give "Rodeo Town" a listen, or the brilliant "Back of the Shell." and Lord Jesus they can rock: "***k the People" is pure combustion. the Black Keys could learn from this. Jack White, on the other hand, is a lost cause. (more on him later) jw

fully aware about people watching at different times, so was especially careful not to say too much in that season 2 thread. that said, this last episode was so stunning, I'm still in a bit of stunned. jw

sports can be argued just as much as music. who the best quarterback is. who the best goalie was. compare Gretzky to Howe. ... and i do think i've attempted my best to back up my points with both opinion, perspective and a few facts. as i said, there is a consensus that the Mustang was a great car, and that the Mona Lisa is an amazing piece of art. they must be appreciated for what they are as relatively iconic. tastes regarding music can differ, too, but there has to be an appreciation of what the genre at its base was, is and still can be. jw

buhloney. imperfect is perfect when it comes to rock and roll. it's playing it imperfectly that makes the sound. easy to have the money nowadays, or the technology to attempt numerous takes. the same couldn't be said for earlier times when laying down a track meant time and money. and yet, some of the earliest versions of rock and roll were perfect because they were raw and fresh and imperfect. you're the one who brought up Perlman and repeating something perfectly. the audience expects that. that's fine. the sound of rock and roll is -- or should be -- far more spontaneous than that. like combustion. jw

and yet by Chef's definition, when drawing upon Itzak Pearlman, Jane's Addiction sucks. ... not sure if they're under-rated. they're certainly not over-rated. they're good. oh, and by the way, forgot to mention this. you might not be talking about 18 year olds in a garage, but don't take words out of my mouth. i was. jw

good for you. but the two don't translate. and let's not pull the elitist card of rock and roll not being that hard. puh-leeze. that's so wrong. it's like people suggesting writing's easy, or coaching's easy or anything that takes time to craft is easy, heck, cooking a good bowl of spaghetti, ain't easy, and yet most of us can boil water, no? each have their levels of difficulty. though it's easy to write something or coach someone or cook something, it's difficult to do it well or at an elite level. it's why i'll never pretend to be Bukowski, who had a certain way with words, or to share an inside joke Howard Simon and I have, "the refreshments" will never be confused with "The Ramones." and to suggest classical music is more difficult than rock and roll is silly. they both involve music, but the comparisons end there. and to have Itzhak Perlman play a concerto much like it sounded like 200 years ago, is so different from rock and roll. Muddy Waters could perhaps play the same song 200 times each time with some small different nuance, and yet it can stil be appreciated. the democratization of music isn't a bad thing, despite what some might say or have argued. it has instead brought the art from down to the gutter where we people are, and have the right to judge it on its own or with our own palette. and in doing so, that's why folks sometimes fail to appreciate what might have been good -- ahead of its time -- in its day, or over-rated by failing to stand the test of time. the mona lisa has withstood that, and no one's going to accuse it of being over-rated -- ok, not no one, because the minute i push the "post" button, someone's going to respond with a post accusing the Mona Lisa as being over-rated. like it or not, though, it has to be appreciated for what it stands for. a classic. it's a little bit more difficult with rock and roll, because it's a genre that's still in it's relative infancy. and yet, the stones stand as a pillar of that foundation, in my opinion, while others have whithered you continue to suggest that you like all forms of music, and yet, you persist in providing us reasons as to why you don't like to get your hands dirty in the true stew of rock and roll. somehow, i'd suggest, that you just might not get what rock and roll was, is or continues to have the potential to be, an imperfect form of expression in a very imperfect world. jw

i'm using sloppy as "sloppy." the Replacements were at times sloppy, and that is upon which they helped build their reputation, sometimes to their ruination, and the audience be damned. no more so was this apparent than the night they played cbgbs with numerous record execs and vips on hand. they were pissdrunk, and didn't care, playing songs and covers they hadn't even practiced, let alone ever attempted. it was a sloppy mess, so much that Gene Simmons walked out in disgust. and yet _ YET! _ there were a few who got it, understood what was actually happening. and that included Seymour Stein, of Sire Records. he signed the 'Mats the following day. it's no different than when the 'Mats _ in later years, and at Sires' demand _ flopped as an opening act for Tom Petty. Sire execs thought that teaming the two up would allow the 'Mats to perhaps gleen something of how a "pro" tours. the 'Mats had their own designs. i like that in a band. i like that in a person no less. out of some of the sloppier stuff, inspiration comes. listen, perhaps, to some of the out-takes between the 'Mats and Tom Waits. much of it is unlistenable. and then, in one bright sober moment, something magical happens and they click on "We Own The Night." Westerberg, in fact, attempted to make sure there was a mistake -- off key, off beat, something -- in every 'Mats song released. it's the imperfection that makes life and everything we know about it. say what you will about the Stones at 70 and on a 50-year reunion tour. they were sloppy at times in recording "Exile on Main Street." and yet, it still comes off as one of the most important albums every done and my favorite. sloppy is most impossible to mask, even with technology. cds, for example, were hailed as the end all and be all of music listening because they took the crack and rattle out of the record-playing process. also took the guts out of it. "Louie Louie" works better because of the singer coming in early on one of the verses or choruses. to me, that's sloppy. and it stayed on the track because, if i recall correctly, they only had so much time booked in the studio. no 18 year old kid in some garage is perfect, nor should he/she be expected to be. i like mistakes sometimes. and i wouldn't use a sweeping brush to wipe them all away. jw

fully disagree here. rock and roll is sloppy by nature in my opinion. it's dirty. it's spontaneous. it's unprompted. it's filled with boozehounds and the socially addled. sorry, gotta run. will return to this thought later. jw

saw they had "re-formed" though, hopefully, not "reformed." they have a new album out. not sure how much they can deliver at this stage of their career, but i can say this: saw them on Halloween night in the early 80s at the old and now closed and converted into a TV studio Concert Hall in Toronto. what a frightening and intense show. the smell of black leather in the crowd was very memorable, too. hope you enjoy. jw

OK, time to round out the first five: Over-rated No. 6: Genesis. having wished there were none, Genesis delivered far too much pretty, pithy music. too little soul. and far too much wind and wuthering. were they a progressive rock or a folk band, and did they suffer at times from the lack of a full-time harpsichord player? evidently, Pete Gabriel needed to move on in order to focus his voice. and for all the proclamations that Genesis was more influential with Gabriel than without him, i question that to a degree. Gabriel proved he needed room to breath as a solo artist rather than be handcuffed by the constrictions of the band. sure, Lamb Lies Down is Genesis at its essential peak, but in retrospect it proved more of a molehill than mountain. i'll more quickly pull out any one of his solo albums, particularly his third one, which features not only the Jam's Paul Weller but also, listen carefully, not one hint of cymbal. all that said, this all pales to the naive, meadowlark, english country-side fantasy Genesis-proper delivered in its lean years, before finally figuring out they were a jazzy pop band. the epitomy of the three core members' era was Duke, a marvelous album that actually captured and anticipated the Asia-based sound to come, and did it better -- or more accessibly. things quickly degenerated from there, as the band unraveled under the weight of success and acting careers to produce a long, seemingly endless string of palp to eventually compete with Lionel Richie, et al, on the low end of the pop register. for all the albums Genesis recorded -- not to count the oh-too-many live and best-of albums -- and sold they hardly resonate. Under-rated No. 6: P*ssy Riot (sorry, the spellifier on this board has changed the name to "kitty" -- how's that for punk!) yes, P*ssy Riot. too often in today's music we seem to forget that rock and roll, at its raw base, is a youthful expression of protest and rebellion. though often without a clue, it is the new generation's opportunity and vehicle to voice itself against "the establishment," whatever that establishment might be. and here, we have a collective of Russian women doing so anonymously, incohesively and courageously in the face of what they consider a repressive government, and at great personal expense. at a time, we in the western world, seemed gripped in fascination with the latest beiber goings on, or mumford and sons and lumineers banalifications, P*ssy Riot is actually pushing the limits. and don't under-estimate them as mere posers with balaclavas. their instincts are rooted in rock, as i find it interesting that they cite Bikini Kill as an influence. what's best about P*ssy Riot is that you don't have to understand Russian to get them. what they do and stand for requires no translation. (sidenote: originally had The Jam here at No. 6, a band that deserves far more appreciation and respect for the rock solid albums it produced in the mid-1970s. what i feared, however, is burdening this list from an old-man's point of view, having already cited T-Rex, the Beat and Cramps, all from essentially the same era. the decision to call an audible here was to bring a bit of freshness to the discussion.) jw

jeebers, wait till you see what season III has in store. sunofa ... !! jw

care to provide an explanation, why, or are we supposed to guess. jw