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in my many conversations with Mr. Wilson, i don't know him as a person capable or rhetoric or spin. as to the Tom Donahoe legacy, this is still an extension of that era, in part because the team got here due to Mr. Wilson's stated reticence to go outside the organization when promoting Russ and hiring Marv because he felt snakebit after bringing in Tom. by doing the math, the Bills are still dealing with the after-effects post 2005 season. jw

who's cowert? and what's he ever done? get your facts straight and your spelling right. and we realize you have some kind of a hate-on in regards to Mr. Wilson which seems to be blinding you of all perspective. come back with another song when you get a chance, because this is getting absolutely dull. jw

things move in cycles, and this, notably, has been a long one, and this era still has ties to the Tom Donahoe era because his dismissal has led to the creation of this current regime. my guess -- and strictly a guess -- is a reassessment will come at the end of this season depending how the Bills do. jw

touche' jw

actually, the government, by establishing the Niagara Parks Board, has played a vast role in shaping the city and its waterfront. an argument can be made is that without government intervention, the Falls in Ontario had the possibility of turning into some form of Atlantic City but with a better view. guess the point i'm trying to make is that not all government involvement is good or bad. and yet here, i find the debate to have no center, but merely endless polarity. jw

GG: was merely venting, and the words came to me. and i'll stop from making any comparisons between Niagara Falls, Ontario, and Niagara Falls, N.Y. from questioning your point in regards to what happens when the private sector and the government work together ... ooops, too late. (respectfully, couldn't resist). and to your other point: in dealing with so many franchise owners and wannabe owners (Hamister comes to mind), who have come and gone with big promises that never paid off, well, i think you might be selling Mr. Wilson a little short. jw

New Hampshire, with all due respect, the numbers are somewhat skewed. remember that the NFL had the distinct advantage of having been established in much larger markets. and the Dallas Cowboys Super Bowls should, in some ways, count in favor of the AFL because Lamar Hunt was forced out of Dallas after the NFL moved into Dallas after turning down Lamar for a franchise there. that said, you're right, it's difficult to reconcile Mr.Wilson's football knowledge with the record of his team. and yet, i'll raise this: for the most part he's been a hands-off owner in the sense of allowing his football people to do their job without too much meddling while asking mostly for loyalty in return. much of that loyalty has not been returned and i'll specifically point to the Tom Donahoe era, which is why this team is in the mess it's been in for so long. Mr. Wilson trusted TD for doing the right thing and yet feels as if that trust had been taken for granted. i won't go back to the Bill Polian years or before that because I wasn't here for that. but i'll say this, when Al Davis tells me he respects Ralph Wilson for the position he took against the Raiders relocation from Oakland to L.A., then i think there's something to that. and when Roger Goodell references Mr. Wilson as a person he leans on for advice, then I'm guessing there's something to that beyond mere lip service. and remember, it ain't easy getting into the Hall of Fame, which is why i truly believe that honor has raised the respect Mr. Wilson now carries around the NFL. no, not everything has gone right with the Bills. but if anyone dimisses Mr. Wilson for his mistakes, then i think they should also credit him for what he's done for the franchise, the city and the NFL. and to suggest the team or the NFL would've done as well or better without him, well, that's mere fantasy in my opinion. jw

mother of god ... do you realize you're referring to an actual human being and not some fantasy player or xbox figure. sheesh, Joe. i know we've had some disagreements, but hoping for what your hoping for is in bad taste. this is sports, not something all that important in the big scheme of things. loosen the grip. jw

had a long chat with Jeff Littmann at training camp and he struck me as a very good guy. but know this, no one runs this team aside from Mr. Wilson (there i go looking stupid again! god, will i ever learn). he is the one who makes all the decisions, good and bad, however you might perceive them. he is the one who ordered Russ to sign TO. he is the one, who agreed to the Toronto deal. and if you think Mr. Wilson speaks poorly about the WNY economy, you should hear him discuss Detroit. the one thing people need to know is that Ralph Wilson is a straight shooter whose word is gold (and that's a noble quality that should be cherished beyond wins and losses), and who has forgotten more about football than I will ever know. yes, there have been some questionable decisions, but this is his team. and those rooting for a new owner, might be bemoaning that wish whenever that sad day happens. jw

with all due respect to Sully, Lori you're on the right track here. the trend is moving away from printed media guides. most NHL teams, including the Sabres, did away with them last season. that might be OK when it comes to saving paper, etc. .... but it's a little troublesome and mystifying to us in the business, who rely on an actual printed page to make notes upon and refer at the brink of deadline. to the Bills credit, at least they've made some media guides available to us in the press box. my problem with the media guide debate is that there was once a trend by professional sports teams to produce fancy, expansive guides printed on expensive paper. well, teams started realizing the cost to produce these things. my point is, i can go to a local copy store and have the media guide printed for about $27 a copy, which is what I did with the Sabres guide. there's no reason why teams can't do this for its beat reporters at a relatively low cost. jw

and guess what, it's as meanspirited and wrong now as it was in the other thread. come back when you're able to provide the semblance of an argument that dignifies respectful debate. jw

tried posting this on the bills board in response to the baloney flying in one certain Ralph Wilson thread, but thought that it best fits here, considering this is my unofficial HST thread, and one in which is a little more difficult to find by some of the youngsters, who don't understand. ok, here we go: ¶ there's a vile and vicious meanness out there this evening and it might have something to do with the full moon, and it's evident that the lunatic fringe is roaming in hordes, so i'll stay in, lock the doors and sip my whisky neat. ¶ ¶ the bills are losing and the economy is still in the tank, and the neighbors are handing out pamphlets warning of cunning thieves who aren't even working under the cover of darkness. they're breaking into garages and dragging out stoves, and breaking into empty homes and stripping them clean of baseboards and doornobs, anything they can get their hands on to scratch the endless itch of an ugly fix. it's gotten so bad that they're even robbing cars of new york state inspection stickers. ¶ ¶ this is not a good time to be in the city, and even the cops are scared, because the last report was this is the price you pay for living here. morality's hit a new low, which is something to say considering the previous eight years this country has been through, though i'm sure hannity will find some kind of new shameless concocted connection to the democrats, because he's a one trick pony with a wooden leg and an ass to match. ¶ and everyone's going to think i'm ripping off hunter once again, but this is the way i write when the fear is upon me and the loathing's palpable and sharp. so we're stuck in a time of compassionless pity in a never-ending debate between the haves who want more and the have nots who are left to scrounge through lint pockets filled with still empty promises of change. ¶ and i've been called stupid and a godless communist by people who hammer keyboards with the blunt end of pipes, and have the bare knuckles to prove it, spending their lives truly believing that ignorance is bliss, while missing the irony of it all. ¶ ¶ but what do i know being stupid and godless and shiftless, because who, after all, can be trusted writing without a capital letter despite a certain long-held belief in a Higher Being. ¶ so i bang along against this bang-a-gong baloney for the sake of hearing myself think, because the pounding's gotten loud and impatient, and my drink's getting low. ¶ and the nutbar fringe is out for blood, and the bills are losing, and it's everyone else's fault, especially mine for being so god*m disagreeable. so there comes a time to stop listening and start yelling back, and i'm not there yet, but who knows, that time may yet come, because these hardened times have the potential to bleed the grace right out of you. and i'm sure the vultures are out there eager to feed. but i'll spite them and make them wait, because no one deserves satisfaction that easily. ¶ ¶ jw

I elect to stop rather than partake any further in the mean-spirited baloney in which this thread has degenerated into. To be called "stupid" for referring to someone I respect as Mr., and to be presented with so many errors leads me to believe that there is no point in providing further responses in fear of repeating myself and delving into a muck I'd rather not enter. I've said my piece and I stick to what I've said. Have at it, folks. The intrawebs is yours as far as this thread is concerned. John Wawrow.

right, probably paid him right out of his own pocket, too. jw

and Mr. Wilson eventually hired Marv Levy, but you notably omit that from any post ... and what is this mystical place you speak of in regards to Seattlele. is that near Poratalande, perhaps? jw

but here on this board, or in this thread, we're stuck having to read and deal with your opinions, so i guess we're even then, right bub? come back when you have something to offer, otherwise i'm not exactly sure what you're accomplishing. jw of the medias (sic).

right, because John Butler was so open to the media, that we had a red carpet straight to his door. John Butler was a good man, but he didn't care to discuss too much with reporters in my one year there, and that's fine. so yes, it was hard work to get anything more than a good day out of him. but i'm sure you had him on speed dial, so what do i know. sorry about the '92, i mistook what you meant. i won't get into an argument with you -- or anyone else for that matter -- in regards to Polian and Linda. i wasn't there. i don't know. and if you're basing your comparisons with that of the Steelers, well, i think then the list of franchises left wanting is quite long and goes far beyond Ralph Wilson and the Bills. jw

no need to apologize. i think you were right without the sorry. jw

what the ...? considering the fact the agreement to merge was reached in 1966, i'd say, no. the '68 Jets and '69 Chiefs had nothing to do with the merger. they were merely playing out the agreed to string of Super Bowls before the NFL was formally established into one league. in fact, to further your mistake, those champions owed a debt to the remaining members of the Foolish Club, particularly Lamar Hunt, but also including Mr. Wilson, and Al Davis (not an original member) for helping ensure the AFL franchises would still be around by that time. but please, why let mere facts get in the way of the point you comprehensively failed to make? jw

everyone has the right to their opinion, but some of your proported "facts" are off or misleading, thus stunting the thrust of your point. Butler, who was "fired" in December 2000, was fired because he refused to commit to a new contract and it was widely rumored that he was going to jump ship and go to San Diego anyway. Mr. Wilson wanted to re-sign Butler, but Butler refused to negotiate. "The ONLY justification for his HOF induction ..." i think not. you overlook numerous contributions, from his role in helping negotiate the framework of what proved to be the eventual AFL-NFL merger, and how it included the very important revenue-sharing clause. it was at Mr. Wilson's urging that the AFL negotiated a TV contract that allowed each team a $900,000 cut that caught the NFL off guard, and made the AFL a league to be reckoned with, thus forcing the merger. Mr. Wilson's role on numerous influential committees helped form the game that is being played today and also averted a major labor dispute in 1977, that could have set the league back by decades. i think you discount the role Mr. Wilson had in preserving the Bills, never mind establishing the team in Buffalo in the first place, a city that might not have had AFL or NFL for that matter without Ralph. and do you discount him too for turning down several offers to relocate the team, including one by Tex Schram, who offered to come up to Buffalo and help pack? i don't recall Polian bringing the Colts a Super Bowl in 1992. it's easy to play the pessimistic role and find fault. heck, we in the media get accused of that all the time. but what's your point and to what end are you trying to get to, especially when cherry-picking negative and sometimes erroneous "facts" to support your case and dismissing the positives. oh, and to your point in questioning ... "where is Indy & SanDiego?" check a map, the first is in Indiana, where they have a big car race on Memorial Day weekend, and the other's in southern California, just north of the Mexican border and where they have famous zoo. jw

in my conversations with Aaron, and the story I wrote earlier in camp, he seemed eager to show what he could do, and confident he can play up to his pre-injury level. despite his ornery personality, he is a very driven person. only time he'd hang it up, and he's said this several times, is when he thinks he can't perform. i've never questioned his desire, and he's given me no reason to question it. jw

funny, i can't find anyone named schoebel on the bills roster. jw

Kelly, i think he did. is that allowed or this is emoticon madness. jw

why yes i can elaborate. please see my story filed today and just moved on the AP wire should be available out there on the interweb. i haven't been able to find it yet, but it's out there. jw ADD: to update GG, who likes a personal service, the story essentially notes that Maybin has a long way to go and didn't exactly look good in first week of practice. ... happy to be of service G!

not sure. i'd expect Monday, but that's me guessing as i haven't seen Bell or talked to him. jw