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Irish or Canadian whisky, my friend. but i'll forgive your minor mistake. jw

keep in mind, i've only personally dealt with seven owners on a personal and regular basis, not including the NHL when it "controlled" the Sabres. and i find some of Mr. Wilson's personal qualities to be among the best of the all of them. jw

Joe McCarthy? Nixon? O.J.? Enron officials? The South Carolina governor who went for a "walk" to Argentina? Mark McGwire? Alfred E Neuman comes to mind, but you wouldn't want to be equated to a Mad Magazine character, would you? should i keep going? jw

yeah, bernie madoff comes to mind. is that the example you were looking for? jw

you didn't just register a complaint. you registered an ill-delivered diatribe against someone who, 1) cautioned you beforehand against bad-mouthing a good friend and respected colleague; 2) you then rudely asked that good friend and respected colleague to do something, and repeated it; 3) and offered this against someone who has no control over what you were complaining about. and one of your first reply's to it is akin to seeking a medal. good for you. jw

i've explained why i got into it. won't hold my breath on you figuring out why. jw

well, at least the character you represent went down with far more nobility. jw

well, your reply to what went down lacked any hint of regret or fault on your part. as a member of this board, i was hoping for more. but i think you're suddenly beginning to learn that being a high-profile poster of this board isn't all that it's cracked up to be when you open yourself up to being criticized. its a hard lesson to learn, i guess. jw

already have. jw

can we construe that your joking again because, at this point, it's difficult to tell. jw

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty. that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets. i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall. having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres). one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me. he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007. there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago. he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape. i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery. if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left? as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron. forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute. having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says. jw

Ralph Wilson inherited his money from his father, who made his fortune in becoming the first, i believe, to sell a health insurance plan to auto workers, Chrysler, i believe. Wilson Jr. then used that money to create a multi-pronged industry that has had ties to auto manufacturing, the oil business, trucking and, if i'm not mistaken, something to do with military weapons. i hate doing the research for you. and there was no expectation that the owners would opt out of the CBA after reaching that quick and ill-fated deal in 2006. you're off the mark there. your jets $100 million thing is pure baloney, and it's not often someone slanders baloney, as i fear doing now. and i detailed the team's free agent losses and additions, while also noting how teams that spend big money in free agency don't generally succeed. i have plenty of respect for Mr. Wilson. and i have never said he's not open to criticism. it's error-filled arguments and posts such as your that conveniently cherry-pick certain facts at the exclusion of others, that i take issue with, because it's based on faulty information. i think i've made my point. it's time to agree to disagree. jw

buddy, they're owned by the same company. will you at least own up to not knowing this? jw

who invited you? sonofa... jw

+1. jw

i'm with you, AstroJ. i think you could've pasted in the entire post and still come up with the same conclusion. jw

yes, i do respect Mr. Wilson. oh really? how is this speculation. it's fact. T.O. Lee Evans. Takeo Spikes. Schobel. Dockery. Kudos to Nate Clements for getting the reaching a big contract with the 49ers, but really, has he dramatically improved that team? The Redskins have been among the NFL's biggest spenders under Dan Snyder: And they've won how many playoff games? I see the Albert Haynesworth deal paid off for them. And if you're bringing up Peerless Price, well, the Falcons sure didn't get value from that deal. As for Pat Williams, that was a major loss, but one that falls on the shoulders of Tom Donahoe. right, and you conveniently forget what some where saying about Mr. Wilson a few years later when owners started questioning the deal they got themselves into. the fact that they opted out of the deal can be construed to be somewhat of a validation for how the Bills voted. based on how poorly the Bills have played in their first two regular season games in Toronto, i doubt they would've won at Ralph Wilson Stadium. and yet, why do you single out Mr. Wilson for being the lone, so-called miser? i'm not moving. i would hesitate to speak in absolutes. they have not been "a complete failure." far from it. you simply choose to cherry pick certain nuggets that seem like facts and hold them up to be so. jw

i've debated over whether to add my two cents on this thread, because i don't want to pretend to speak for Tim -- who is a very respected colleague of mine -- or address what went down. that's not my place. speaking only for myself, it's not a matter of a poster "going after me." it's a matter of crossing certain boundaries. and that shouldn't apply solely to us media types, but to everyone, and that's noted in the terms posted on this board. what nearly drove me away last September was the constant hounding and questioning that occured over the course of a couple of threads. what frustrates me today is a certain element that's crept into this community that thinks it's ok to call other posters "morons" "retards" "clowns" and "dummies." that won't drive me away, but it certainly doesn't make this board a place open to respectful and open discussion. i have no reason or right to ask for special privileges, nor do i think there should be a rule that squelches free speech. i'm not in the politically correct business. i do enjoy a good give and take. i am more careful in drawing my own line when it comes to some, and what i will and won't respond to. and i too, hope, Tim returns to this board if and when he feels the time is right. jw

i understand that concern. and we truly won't know what's in that will or what Mr. Wilson's true plan is -- highest bidder, other deals, right to first refusal, keep it within the family, these are all guesses on my part -- until that will is opened and read. and don't read anything into my guesses, because that's all they are, but they remain possibilities, even -- i think -- the one to keep it within the family, though that one's widely regarded as a longshot. jw

so you're to blame. jw

that has plenty to do with the NFL's success, something Mr. Wilson had something to do with. Bills fans had the opportunity to have their say in the 1990s, before the lease was up. as for the Toronto deal, let's not work in a vacuum here. the deal was precipitated after Mr. Wilson expressed serious concern about the franchise's long-term stability in Buffalo. this immediately followed the approval of the new CBA and directly followed his meeting with Governor Pataki, when Mr. Wilson stressed he wasn't looking for any more public handouts. c'mon, really? it's questionable to make any comparisons between how a Buffalo team draws in Toronto as opposed to a based-in-Toronto full-time team would resonate with its fans. the Rogers folks, i believe, over-estimated the value of leasing a team for an eight-game series, and how it would be accepted among Torontonians. the fact that Torontonians haven't lined up all the way to Queen Street to buy $200 tickets is, i believe, more of an indication that their lack of commitment is more due to the fact that this is a "Buffalo" team. the thought process behind if we bring it they will come was a little skewed. no one realized how skewed. no. and now you're arguing my point. Mr. Wilson wouldn't give up a piece of his ownership in the first place. and he wouldn't do so if it led to the team's relocation. if Mr. Wilson went for that deal, then he could be accused of being greedy, right? right, sounds like an astute businessman. should he apologize for getting in on the ground floor of something that became a national phenomenon? and if the city of Buffalo's serious about building a downtown stadium for the Bills, why does Mr. Wilson continue to say he's not interested? is that what they were saying in Baltimore before the Colts moved to Indy? in Cleveland, perhaps? Houston? or Oakland ... well, not Oakland. or what about the concerns in Jacksonville, Minnesota in San Diego? are those teams secure in those respective markets? again, it's a no-win argument you propose. Mr. Wilson hasn't moved the team and should be faulted for it ... or at least that's the way i read it. jw

Mr. Wilson considered Tex's offer as being legitimate. I'd have to cull through my notes from last year to see where Schram wanted the team to relocate to. I recall him telling me there was one other offer to relocate the team, but he wouldn't go into detail And through time, including this past decade, there were and remain larger markets in contention for franchises. And it's generally accepted that Los Angeles has been in play for some time. The Bills most certainly could have moved there several times, including tomorrow, given how the real estate mogul there is talking. And why not Toronto? Given what the Rogers folks were willing to spend on 8 games, I'm pretty sure they were willing to spend 10 times as much on the team. In fact, one Rogers executive told me they were ready to go after a franchise. Why not the Bills? If Mr. Wilson was in it for the money, then he'd sell the team before he passses and reap all the benefits rather than putting up with the criticisms and the headaches. Thing is, he doesn't mind the criticisms and the headaches because he truly enjoys being an owner and a football fan. And he also feels a strong tie to Western New York. Before anyone brings up the fact that he ripped Western New York during his Toronto press conference, well, I don't know exactly what he said that was wrong. He said the economy's struggling in Buffalo and there's very little reason to believe the Bills can generate any more revenue out of the region. ... Last I checked -- and this was this morning as I drove to work through the West Side -- I don't think much has changed. The city is struggling. In one way, it's a damned if you do/don't argument you present. If he moves the team, then he's a money grubber with no loyalty to Buffalo. If he doesn't move the team, then he's a money-grubber with no loyalty to Buffalo, because he's ripping everyone off. jw

Week 1 Buffalo vs. Miami (Loss) Week 2 Buffalo vs. Green Bay (Win) Week 3 Buffalo vs. New England Patriots* (Win) Week 4 Buffalo vs. NY Jets (Loss) Week 5 Buffalo vs. Jacksonville Jaguars (Win) Week 6 BYE Week 7 Buffalo vs. Baltimore Ravens (Loss) Week 8 Buffalo vs. Kansas City Chiefs (Win) Week 9 Buffalo vs. Chicago Bears (Loss) Week 10 Buffalo vs. Detroit Lions (Win) Week 11 Buffalo vs. Cincinnati Bengals (Win) Week 12 Buffalo vs. Pittsburgh Steelers (Loss) Week 13 Buffalo vs. Minnesota Vikings (Loss) Week 14 Buffalo vs. Cleveland Browns (Win) Week 15 Buffalo vs. Miami Dolphins (Win) Week 16 Buffalo vs. New England Patriots* (Loss) Week 17 Buffalo vs. NY Jets (Loss) jw

you make valid points, here, JohnC. i'm not denying that. my problem is some of the yahoos, who tend to use questionable -- if not erroneous -- points to back up their claims. and that's the problem with threads or discussions involving Ralph Wilson. some people take this issue far too personally, and some wind up crowing supposed facts that just don't make sense. in my opinion, it's difficult to have a reasoned discussion about Mr. Wilson because the feelings and passions are far too entrenched. the only -- and i mean only -- reason i wade in on these discussions is a bid to provide some insight and an attempt to maintain an even playing field. i have no patience for those who seek a person's demise or call others dummies and clowns or write child-like posts and then somehow take offense when they're referred to as children. if the baby shoe fits, then ... what's dumbfounding and frustrating are those who attempt to bully others here and then play the naive innocent role, blaming others for being banned -- "oh woe is me," just doesn't work, and continues to entrench the perception that he/she has no shame, has an unrealistic sense of entitlement and refuses to play nice with others. and that, in my book, is how 3-year-olds act. but i guess i've gotten off point here. or maybe, JohnC, that was my point. and i do not take any offense or issue with you or those who post with respect in making valid points that further the discussion. jw and Mr. WEO: to follow up on the relocation front, Tex Schram offered and urged Mr. Wilson the opportunity to relocate the Bills in the late 70s/early 80s. as explained to me, Mr. Wilson's philosophy -- and why he's voted against relocation at every opportunity -- is he's against moving a franchise without allowing the fanbase a chance to have its say. he's against movement for movement's sake.

glad i amused you. i don't see anywhere in what i've posted in this thread that would make me an apologist. please, re-read what i've written. the dummy comment's out of line, and your logic is skewed and some of your points awkward at best. let's go point by point: -- Ralph Wilson was rich before he established the Bills, and would've been rich without them. -- Never been willing to pay top dollar for coaching talent, sure. But he's paid big money on players. So how does that make him a miser? -- Buddy, I don't know what lunatic fringe you're talking about, because, in retrospect, most of the owners have moved to Wilson's so-called fringe. (Hint: It's why there might not be an NFL season in 2011). -- The deal the Bills brokered with Rogers is proving to be a huge windfall for the Bills, and a deal I think Rogers might not have signed based on their failure to meet their initial high hopes. I mean, hell, $9 million a game is a steep price. Sure, you make the claim that it's for money, money which the team can't generate out of cash-dry Western New York. -- If Mr. Wilson invented the phrase "cash to the cap," then he should've patented it, because there's a lot more teams nowadays following that "cash to the cap" lead. -- Third-tier city? That's a little tough, isn't it? but hell, what do i know, being a dummy apologist and all, drawn into a discussion with someone who backs up his/her argument with refutable points. jw MINOR EDITS