Leonidas

Ummm...Aaron Ross, Sam Madison, R.W. McQuarters, Michael Johnson, Corey Webster...? Oh, and that CB/S from Miami...Phillips?

Echo that. "Send a fourth for him." !@#$ that. I'd rather have a dynamic punt returner than another fourth round draft pick. Apparently Tom Modrak was reading TSW...

I just found this on ESPN (with my new ESPN Insider subscription): Insider Analysis Grade 67 Expert's Take Greer is a five-year veteran who had another solid year as a perimeter and nickel defender. He was banged up some in 2008, but appeared to be more physical in run support as well as in coverage. He is a focused player who has a great feel for leverage and route progressions. Greer is solid reactor as plays unfold, while showing good vision and awareness to get to the pile out of his zone responsibilities. He reads route progressions well and anticipates breaks points to make plays on the ball. Greer is a very good athlete who maintains a proper cushion with quick feet, peddle and instincts. He shows good burst and close out of his plant, but doesn't have outstanding pure speed out on an island versus top receivers. He has average size, but can be effective using his hands to re-route receivers. Greer is a competitive athlete who is active to the pile and not afraid to mix it up. He is a good football player and a solid special teams contributor that has value in the free-agent market. "Shut-down" corner? I think not...

I love Brian Moorman. He is always doing stuff for charities and local sponsorships. He's also a great punter and - believe it or not - the fastest guy on the team (although Parrish might give him a run for his money). He ran track in college and even participated in the 2006 skills competition at the Pro Bowl. The guy is a pure athlete. It should also be noted, for all of you that thinks the FO is just a bunch of cheapskates, that he got a $10M extension in '07 making him the second highest paid punter in the league. And he never sat out OTA's, workouts, mini-camps, pre-season games...

That's an excellent post. My only response would be that this year's TE class is much deeper than last year's, so theoretically a TE in the 4th this year might be better than a TE in the 4th last year. But it's all speculation anyway. I'd still love to trade for somebody like Tony Scheffler as long as it wasn't any higher than a fourth rounder.

For those of you that don't have ESPN Insider: 17. New York Jets (9-7) Darrius Heyward-Bey, WR, Maryland: Heyward-Bey's awesome size-speed ratio should win out here and give the Jets the kind of receiver they need to open up the passing game. 18. Denver Broncos (from Chicago) (8-8) Everette Brown, DE, Florida State: Brown could make an immediate impact in the Broncos' defense because of his strong skill set. 19. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (9-7) Josh Freeman, QB, Kansas State: Freeman is an interesting prospect because he throws a great ball and has imposing size at nearly 6-foot-6 and 245 pounds. However, his inconsistent play puts him in the boom-or-bust category. 20. Detroit Lions (from Dallas) (0-16) Michael Oher, OT, Mississippi: Oher is one of the more intriguing prospects in the draft. He's loaded with talent and can dominate the defense he's working against, but he also seems to have lapses in concentration when he struggles to keep his opponents at bay. 21. Philadelphia Eagles (9-6-1) Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia: There isn't anything remotely close to the talent and depth at running back available in the draft last year, but Moreno is a good fit for the Eagles at this spot. 22. Minnesota Vikings (10-6) Kenny Britt, WR, Rutgers: Britt has a ton of talent and is just beginning to scratch the surface of his potential. 23. New England Patriots (11-5) Donald Brown, RB, Connecticut: Brown could end up being one of the more productive rookie backs in 2009 because of his all-around skills and tremendous character. 24. Atlanta Falcons (11-5) Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Oklahoma State: Pettigrew remains the No. 1 tight end on the board and would be a help to young Falcons quarterback Matt Ryan. 25. Miami Dolphins (11-5) Malcolm Jenkins, CB, Ohio State: Jenkins has all the qualities you look for, with the exception of top-flight recovery speed, which is an obvious concern. Even so, he's too good an overall performer to pass up in the middle of the first round. 26. Baltimore Ravens (11-5) Vontae Davis, CB, Illinois: Davis is an impressive physical specimen, but he lacked consistency with the Illini, not always performing at the elite level you would expect from a player with his natural talent and ability. He'll be a gamble. 27. Indianapolis Colts (12-4) Peria Jerry, DT, Mississippi: Jerry is a very underrated prospect, and would be a good fit in the Indianapolis scheme. 28. Philadelphia Eagles (from 12-4 CAR) (9-6-1) Eben Britton, OT, Arizona: Britton could be a good fit for the Eagles' offensive line, although I would have liked to see him return for his senior year. 29. New York Giants (12-4) Hakeem Nicks, WR, North Carolina: Nicks won't wow you in a workout, but on game day he makes the tough catches and is the type of player who wants the ball thrown his way in clutch situations. 30. Tennessee Titans (13-3) Percy Harvin, WR, Florida: Harvin reminds me of the Reggie Bush we now see with the Saints. You can utilize Harvin in a number of ways, and, like Bush, he's a scoreboard-changer. However, he also carries the same durability concerns as Bush. 31. Arizona Cardinals (9-7) Larry English, LB, Northern Illinois: English set the all-time sack record at Northern Illinois, and could be an impact player in Arizona. 32. Pittsburgh Steelers (12-4) Eric Wood, C, Louisville: Wood has been a player on the rise of late, and with his size and skills he could find himself a Steeler for a very long time. Second round 33. Detroit Lions: James Laurinaitis, LB, Ohio St. 34. New England Patriots (from KC) : Connor Barwin, DE/LB, Cincinnati 35. St. Louis Rams: Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut 36. Cleveland Browns: Clay Matthews, LB, USC 37. Seattle Seahawks: William Moore, S, Missouri 38. Cincinnati Bengals: Alex Mack, C, California 39. Jacksonville Jaguars: Brian Robiskie, WR, Ohio St. 40. Oakland Raiders: Phil Loadholt, OT, Oklahoma 41. Green Bay Packers: William Beatty, OT, Connecticut 42. Buffalo Bills: Jared Cook, TE, South Carolina 43. San Francisco 49ers: Alphonso Smith, CB, Wake Forest 44. Miami Dolphins (from Washington): Jarron Gilbert, DL, San Jose St. 45. New York Giants (from New Orleans): Shawn Nelson, TE, So. Mississippi 46. Houston Texans: Ziggy Hood, DT, Missouri 47. New England Patriots (from San Diego): Sean Smith, CB, Utah 48. Denver Broncos: Ron Brace, DT, Boston College 49. Chicago Bears: Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, Georgia 50. Cleveland Browns (from Tampa Bay): LeSean McCoy, RB, Pittsburgh 51. Dallas Cowboys: Louis Delmas, S, Western Michigan 52. New York Jets: Andre Brown, RB, North Carolina St. 53. Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Johnson, DE, Georgia Tech 54. Minnesota Vikings: Max Unger, C, Oregon 55. Atlanta Falcons: Sherrod Martin, DB, Troy 56. Miami Dolphins: Clint Sintim, LB, Virginia 57. Baltimore Ravens: Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma 58. New England Patriots: Pat White, WR, West Virginia 59. Carolina Panthers: Roy Miller, DT, Texas 60. New York Giants: Kaluka Maiava, LB, USC 61. Indianapolis Colts: Derrick Williams, WR, Penn St. 62. Tennessee Titans: D.J. Moore, CB, Vanderbilt 63. Arizona Cardinals: Shonn Greene, RB, Iowa 64. Pittsburgh Steelers: Jairus Byrd, CB, Oregon Third round 65. Detroit: Patrick Chung, S, Oregon 66. St. Louis : Lawrence Sidbury, DE, Richmond 67. Kansas City: Andy Levitre, OL, Oregon St. 68. Seattle : Donald Washington, CB, Ohio St. 69. Dallas (from Cleveland): Ramses Barden, WR, Cal Poly 70. Cincinnati: Paul Kruger, DE, Utah 71. Oakland: Rashad Johnson, S, Alabama 72. Jacksonville: Bradley Fletcher, CB, Iowa 73. Green Bay: Cody Brown, LB, Connecticut 74. San Francisco: Darcel McBath, S, Texas Tech 75. Buffalo: T.J. Lang, OL, Eastern Michigan 76. New York Jets (from New Orleans): Richard Quinn, TE, North Carolina 77. Houston Texans: Keenan Lewis, CB, Oregon St. 78. San Diego: Jamon Meredith, OL, South Carolina 79. Denver: Asher Allen, CB, Georgia 80. Washington: Kyle Moore, DE, USC 81. Tampa Bay: Alex Magee , DT, Purdue 82. Detroit (from Dallas): Fili Moala, DT, USC 83. Green Bay (from New York Jets): Tony Fiammetta, FB, Syracuse 84. Denver (from Chicago): Louis Murphy, WR, Florida 85. Philadelphia: Deon Butler, WR, Penn St. 86. Minnesota: Duke Robinson, OG, Oklahoma 87. Miami: Cedric Peerman, RB, Virginia 88. Baltimore : Anthony Hill, TE, North Carolina St. 89. New England: Cornelius Ingram, TE, Florida 90. Atlanta: Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama 91. New York Giants: Tyronne Green, OG, Auburn 92. Indianapolis : Jason Phillips, LB, TCU 93. Carolina: Kraig Urbik, OG, Wisconsin 94. Tennessee: Marcus Freeman, LB, Ohio St. 95. Arizona: Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri 96. Pittsburgh: Quinten Lawrence, WR, McNeese St. 97. New England (comp selection): Scott McKillop, LB, Pittsburgh 98. Cincinnati (comp selection): Rashad Jennings, RB, Liberty 99. Chicago (comp selection): Chris Clemons, S, Clemson 100. New York Giants (comp selection): Glen Coffee, RB, Alabama Fourth round 101. Dallas (from Detroit): Ladarius Webb, DB, Nicholls St. 102. Kansas City : Dannell Ellerbe, LB, Georgia 103. St. Louis: Johnny Knox, WR, Abilene Christian 104. Cleveland : Coye Francies, CB, San Jose St. 105. Seattle: James Davis, RB, Clemson 106. Cincinnati: Quinn Johnson, FB, LSU 107. Jacksonville: Rhett Bomar, QB, Sam Houston St. 108. Miami (from Oakland): Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina 109. Green Bay: Zack Follett, LB, California 110. Buffalo: Michael Hamlin, S, Clemson 111. San Francisco: Mike Goodson, RB, Texas A&M 112. Houston: David Veikune, DE, Hawaii 113. San Diego: Emanuel Cook, S, South Carolina 114. Denver: Chip Vaughn, S, Wake Forest 115. New York Jets (from Washington): Mitch King, DL, Iowa 116. New Orleans: Tyrone McKenzie, LB, South Florida 117. Dallas: Herman Johnson, OG, LSU 118. New Orleans (from N.Y. Jets): A.Q. Shipley, C, Penn St. 119. Chicago: Christopher Owens, CB, San Jose St. 120. Tampa Bay: Austin Collie, WR, BYU 121. Philadelphia: James Casey, TE, Rice 122. Houston (from Minnesota): Mike Thomas, WR, Arizona 123. Baltimore: Darry Beckwith, LB, LSU 124. New England: Dan Gay, OT, Baylor 125. Atlanta: Brandon Gibson, WR, Washington St. 126. Oakland (from Miami): Gerald Cadogan, OT, Penn St. 127. Indianapolis: Javon Ringer, RB, Michigan St. 128. Carolina : Mike Wallace, WR, Mississippi 129. New York Giants: Gregory Toler, CB, St. Paul's 130. Tennessee: Louis Vasquez, OG, Texas Tech 131. Arizona: Corvey Irvin, DT, Georgia 132. Pittsburgh: Sen'Derrick Marks, DL, Auburn 133. San Diego (comp selection): Ellis Lankster, CB, West Virginia 134. San Diego (comp selection): Dorell Scott, DT, Clemson 135. Tennessee (comp selection): Terrance Taylor, DT, Michigan 136. Indianapolis (comp selection): Jonathan Casillas, LB, Wisconsin

Yeah, many exes have told me the same thing. I don't see how it's flawed. I don't think it's worth it to pay a left tackle that kind of money unless he is truly an absolute stud. If that's contrarian then so be it. But there's a reason teams like the Patriots are so successful - they don't overpay for talent. Did Peters outplay Matt Light last season? Definitely not. And look at Matt Light's contract. Their offensive line philosophy appears to be much different than our, in that five very solid lineman is better than a stud LT and four adequate linemen. I happen to agree. And concerning players' salaries rising, I think they're getting out of control. We're in a recession, everyone is losing their jobs or getting cut back, I don't think it's insane for athletes to merely have a sort of pay "freeze," if you will, in effect. Also, if salaries climb too quickly the NFL will find itself like the NHL did just a few years ago, where it is more profitable to close the doors to take a small loss than a big one. Thats when small market teams get !@#$ed. I also don't think players' salaries should increase by enormous margins year after year. Rise for inflation, yes, and rise as you get experience and add value to the team. But the argument that these players are somehow underpaid is a joke. I don't disagree that someone will pay that. I just hope it's not us. Just because someone pays that much doesn't make it worth it. Anyone who has watched the Redskins do business over the years could tell you that.

Dean, congratulations. You have taken all the fun out of discussing the Bills. I have zero desire to debate this any more, and quite frankly, you've done just as much to attack the person making the argument as the argument itself. I'm done here.

Or for the sake of being factual... I think we've found the flaw in your logic. I rattled off a number of tackles and no one could tell me if Peters was better than any or all of them. The problem is that that's not really true. The "just pay Peters" crowd - while some of them appear to base their argument on nothing whatsoever - the other ones are basing their "arguments" on the Long/Gross contracts solely. When you look at the market as a whole for that position, and you see the performance of the player, you see he's not worth anywhere near the $10-11M/year some morons insist we pay him. While that may be true, that doesn't change the fact that had we paid him last year and he performed the way he did that he would have "underperformed" the massive contract. I'm also sick to death of the pro bowl argument. Did you think he played at a pro bowl level this year? If so, this conversation is over. If not, then the argument doesn't hold water anyhow.

Thank you for explaining that. I didn't realize I had to explain what "pro-rated" bonuses meant while Deano freaked about the real contract numbers and thebandit thought Flozell Adams was getting $15M/year.

Actually, it's asinine. We were both wrong, but I was closer. Yeah, I wouldn't trade him for a third round pick. He's a threat to bring it to the house at any point and, aside from Hester (whi isn't even being used in the return game any more), the best PR in the game. The salary argument doesn't make any sense. We're not at the salary cap. Keeping Parrish doesn't preclude us from signing a Cato June or a Keiaho or anybody else. Nobody did, I was just making a point that besides McKelvin we don't have a home run threat at PR. It sounds like you're agreeing with me here. Not sure how pointing out McGee doesn't return punts is "arguing in circles." I'd love to hear how that makes any sense. By the way, that was from the Pace/Ogden = Peters argument, and I was using the ever popular "sacks is not an argument" as a faux justification of my point of view. It's called sarcasm. What you missed in my post (either intentionally or unintentionally) was that what happens when McKelvin inevitably gets injured? Freddy Jackson - who isn't currently signed - will take the duties? Do you think he inspires fear in return teams the way Parrish does? If so, puff puff pass please. All this to trade for a third rounder. No thanks. Not even close.

Yeah, and he also made an issue that affected the entire team for the entire season. And he did it with three years left on his current deal after having his deal re-structured once already. And he did it after only one full season at his position. There is a difference between holding out after three seasons of the so-called "outperforming" your contract. This is another situation altogether. Sorry, am I coming off like a negotiator for the Bills again???

That was part of the joke. Relax there, Deano. I'll bet my house he doesn't have the career of Pace or Ogden. Want to take that bet? And it should be noted that despite his ceiling, we all know he's certainly capable of not playing to it. I never said he'd be playing guard. I meant somewhere else as in another team. Thanks for the advice. I've done research on the subject, provided resources, and given my opinion on the subject. What can I do to please thou? I'd hate to continue to sound like a negotiator for the Bills (after you told me I have no negotiating skills)...

Freddy Jackson is not the punt returner Parrish or McKelvin are, and for whatever reason McGee doesn't return punts. It would be assinine to trade away our best punt returner for a third round pick (or worse). When McKelvin get injured and we have Jackson (if he's signed, of course) returning punts you'll see a serious drop off. I hope the FO doesn't even consider this move. Thank you.

Well apparently sacks allowed aren't relevant according to TSW. What stats should I use, pancake blocks?? Look, the college comparison was just used to show that Pace and Ogden were pure LT's that are almost certainly going to the HOF. If Peters plays the way he played last year he'll start somewhere (hell, Mike Gandy is a starter in this league), but barring a decade of playing at Pace/Ogden levels (i.e. better than he played in '07) he's nowhere near them. I think that's about all that can be said about this.

Noticing your signature, am I the only one who wants to trade out of #11 (depending on who's available) to Detroit for #20 and #33 (according to the draft chart we'd have to throw in a third or a fourth and a fifth to make it happen) AND trade Peters for Philly's two firsts, and have picks at #20, #21, #28, #33, #42, #75. A guy can dream... Am I the only one who wants to bring back Fowler for depth after losing Preston (who I still never forgave after the Pats game halftime debacle)?? We have a scary dearth of depth (oooh, alliteration). I think you meant "f-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-t-y." But who's counting.

Pace didn't allow a single sack in his last two years at Ohio State and was a heisman finalist at tackle!!!! Ogden allowed two sacks his final two seasons and had his jersey retired by UCLA. Peters was an undrafted TE out of Arkansas who's had one solid year at LT. This isn't even a discussion.

Actually, the train is still very much there, and the Bills have the leverage. I'd feel a lot better if they signed another lineman or two to give them even more leverage though. Teams like NE and Philly take a hard-line approach against this type of behavior because it breeds more behavior like it. Trade him and move on or you're guaranteed to have more problems like this in the future. If you get a great offer, you take it. Don't be like Marvin Lewis last year who turned down two first round picks from Washington (idiots) for Ocho Cinco. If the Bills settled on $43M over 6 years with clauses concerning mandatory workout payments/fines and incentives for not giving up sacks then I would be all for it. But this unconditional $8-9M/year is bull sh--.

I assumed he meant during their primes. Pace makes $5M/year, and Ogden is probably collecting social security. Sorry if I didn't clarify my statement - I meant Peters doesn't touch either of them when they were in the prime of their respective careers. I thought that was obvious. So since your argument hit a dead end, you're going to just be an !@#$? Nice way to have a discussion. Orlando Pace is a future Hall of Famer. So is Ogden (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=3433434). Are we really having this discussion, who's better: Jason Peters or Pace/Ogden in their prime???

So we should reward that type of behavior with a mega-contract?? What does that say to other players on the team who may feel underpaid?? Or to the same player in the future when he feels the same way?? So what happens in two years when he's 29 - at the prime of his career - and the top 10 draft picks from '09 and '10 are making more than him? Who's to say he won't do it again? He's certainly shown he's capable.

*sigh* seriously, Dean? put in the player name then "contract" and see what comes up. On each case, Rotoworld coincides with all the other sources (Branden Albert's contract was the only one that took some digging).

So you're saying with Peters we make the playoffs, without him we don't? Seriously?? Too bad the stats suggest otherwise. Peters is nowhere near Pace and Ogden. To say otherwise is pure stupidity.

Yeah, when I first heard they were offering $8M I was shocked. I figured they'd settle at that number in the end, but the fact that they started with that shocked me. I'm not saying that Peters will set Buffalo on fire, but there is a question of sustainability here in Buffalo. As the salary cap continues to grow there is less and less revenue for the next potential owner. They could always raise ticket prices, I suppose. Would you guys love that? Your ticket prices going up because of people like Peters pouting and throwing tantrums? You could go to the games and watch him give up sacks in person, knowing that your disposable income is less than what it was.

Flozell Adams: $43M/6 years http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ll.7e04cef.html Michael Roos: $43M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=3186 Branden Albert (#5 overall pick): $51M/6 years http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/722077.html David Stewart: $38.9M/6 years http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/conten...NFL&id=3311 Joe Thomas (#3 overall pick): $42.5M/5 years http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950674 Jordan Gross was noted in my above post. (did you miss the part "name one not named Jordan Gross and Jake Long"?) Stacy Andrews: $40M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFl&id=2834 Only Thomas and Albert - both top five draft picks - make over $8M a year when bonuses are pro-rated, and barely. The phrase "good to great left tackles make $8-11M dollars a year" is just flat wrong. Your numbers are wrong. They are based on non-allocated signing bonuses. Peters wants to be the highest paid lineman in the game which would put him at about $60M/5 years (Jake Long signed a $57.5M/5 year contract). And thanks for ignoring all the tackles I mentioned. Since you won't do the research, let me do it for you: Walter Jones: $52.5M/7 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...=nfl&id=539 Matt Light: $27.3M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFL&id=1085 D'Brickashaw Furgueson: $37.5M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=3620 Bryant McKinnie: $48.5M/7 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...NFl&id=1210 Ryan Clady: $14.75M/6 years http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpag...nfl&id=4616 Joe Staley: $8M/5 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFL&id=4213 Tony Ugoh: $4M/4 years http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpag...NFl&id=4208

Two quick hits. 1) I don't know why EVERYBODY is trying to trade Parrish. He's not expensive at all, and we have the cap room. I still like him as the #3 or #4 WR with his speed and quickness, especially on pure passing downs, but he is the best PR in the league. McGee and McKelvin can split time on KR and Parrish can handle the PR (with McKelvin to spell him when necessary). Having depth at that position is so incredibly important and it drives me nuts when people try to trade that away for a worthless second day draft pick. 2) New England will not have drafted six times by the time we draft four. It looks more and more likely that Peters will be traded for draft picks and there's always the reasonable possibility of us trading out of the #11 pick. New England is also likely to trade up as they don't have a need for all the picks they have and can't possibly sign all those guys.