thurst44

I'm talking about on the same level over a career. Mahomes had an amazing season in his first as a starter. We have yet to see what he does in the rest of his career nor what Allen will do in his second season and beyond. Let's say Allen has a great year but sub-Mahomes in 2018: 35 tds, 10 rushing, 4000 yards, 15 interceptions and Bills go 10-6 or 11-5, do the Bills still lose the 2017 draft? If they get an elite CB and the pick that allows them to get their franchise QB, that's a win in my book, even if Mahomes has a better career.

How is it "insane" to suggest that a quarterback considered by many experts as the best QB in a strong QB draft could develop into one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Yes, he's polarizing. I was not initially a fan, but to write off a QB after one season (where he went 5-5 in full games as the team went 1-5 when he did not play a full game) as "insane" seems a bit extreme. I was not saying he was at Mahomes' level last year, but Mahomes was a second-year QB. Let's actually see what he does this year before dismissing him. My point is IF Allen works out, then the Bills win b/c they got an elite QB AND CB, as opposed to just a QB. It's a gamble, but the book is far from closed.

When we traded our pick in order to get a 1st rounder in the next draft presumably (and as it turned out) to get one of the QBs from a rich draft, so judging it in isolation and acting like the 2017 draft had nothing to do with picking Allen is disingenuous at best. If we got a shutdown CB and Allen turns out to be on the same level as Mahomes, I'd call that a win and a better outcome than JUST getting Mahomes or Watson. One could also argue it set up getting another pick in the 1st round used to pick a potentially elite LB.

I'm roughly 5 miles away from where two other teams play, so, no. I did live in Buffalo for 8 years during college and beyond, before moving back to the NYC metro where I grew up.

As other poster said, 19, and there was a consensus among experts (almost) that he would go 19th or higher. Of course, as I go to back up that boast the first mock draft I find had him dropping out of the first round (SB Nation). The rest I checked: 8, 11, 8, 11, 19, 19, 11, 11, 17 (then i got bored). Ragland was also a first rounder in most of those, fwiw, and from what I've heard from Chiefs fans, we were not premature to trade him. Hindsight is 20/20. Lawson has played better than his stats and than most here give him credit, but certainly not played like you want from a first rounder. That said, I'm still hoping for a breakout year this year, and would not be shocked if that happened and he wound up back in 2020. However, also, that said, I don't think it's particularly likely (just in the realm of the possible).

Anderson got 22, 48, and 76 yards against the Bills in his last three games -- I'd hardly call that "toasted."

The same CBS Sports that called us the most improved team in football?

I'll feel really old when Adam Vinatieri retires as he's the last player in the four major sports who is older than I am. Jaromir Jagr was second to last. Bartolo Colon is a month younger than I am, but even he's not on a team last I checked. NBA players rarely make it to 40 on the court. I'm in this weird (but amazingly fun) 4-sport fantasy league and at one point had Vinatieri and Jagr, probably for that very reason. You want to feel really young: Jose Canseco is still playing professional baseball, sorta, or at least put up some official stats last year at age 53, but hasn't had a hit since age 51 and no homers since 50. https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=cansec001jos Saw him, when he was the age I am now, playing for the now defunct Newark Bears in front of me and maybe 20-40 fans. He was staring into the middle distance most of the game and it was one of the sadder sights I've seen.

It's really quite amazing to remember how bad the defense was in that first game (and then the first half of the next game) and to imagine that the team would be one Baker-Mayfield-pass-on-his-last-drive away from the #1 defense in football.

He was my first favorite Bill when I was a kid! Well, maybe second after Robb Riddick!

Man, spoiler for someone who is two years behind on their Marvel movies

Maybe teams are just put off Tre Boston, b/c he lets random gods at gas stations decide what teams he's gonna snub?

I've seen two redrafts of 2018 -- both had Foster in the first, one of them had both Foster and Wallace (but that one did not have Edmunds in the first)...both also had Allen getting drafted 3rd (with Darnold going to the Giants).

Yup, that's why Darnold is about 10 higher...oh wait.

Look, I'm optimistic, but it's more cautious than it seems. I agree with all you say. I'm fond of the plan and can see a philosophy behind it and I like it. As for 2019, what annoys me more is when someone says something to the effect: "this team can't be better than 7-9 or 8-8." I think saying this team can't be worse than 8-8 is just as ill-informed, but it bothers me less as relentless negativity bothers me more than runaway optimism -- at least when it comes to sport (it's a game, please don't try to convince me i should be miserable). This team could be anything from 16-0 to 0-16 depending on how everything shakes out. Realistically, the window is probably smaller, but it's wider than most people believe b/c there are SO many x-factors. Take Miami for example, so many years when people have predicted them to have a 2-14 or 3-13 record, they contend for a wildcard, and other years when they are supposed to be a contender, they find themselves battling for the number one pick.

Yikes, really Hapless? I'm not even saying Allen is "the man," just that the national press idea that he "can't win games" or Darnold has shown more is annoying since he has done well so far winning actual games. I've even said today in this forum that I was a doubter, but feeling that "maybe I'm wrong." Don't act like I'm being all Pollyanna-ish about it. I'm just saying, unscientifically, that the idea he "can't win games" should align with what's going on in the field. Sorry if I seem a bit defensive, but it's annoying when one is making a perfectly reasonable comment and someone acts like it's hyperbolic and blinded by fandom. He's done better at winning games than people could reasonably expect at this point. How do I match it? I match that with the idea that when it comes to getting to a final score that's higher than the other team, Allen has had more experience winning in a totally unscientific, not yet with a meaningful sample manner. Nor am I saying that it takes less than a whole team to win games. I just said that he has done well "winning games" so far, and better than Darnold. I don't see where this is all that controversial. All that being said, your stats are cool. Let's go Bills! Hopefully, as I imagine we both feel, Allen proves it in a more meaningful way next year, particularly bracketing the season head-to-head.

The schedule is one of the easiest in the league... Homey, don't play that!

My point was not that Allen looks better in stats or has "looked" better in games, but that with supposedly terrible supporting casts, Allen has done better at winning ACTUAL games, one is 5-5 in complete games, the other 4-9. I meant so far if that wasn't clear... more to make the point that Darnold was looking more promising than Allen in terms of winning games which is what this thread is ultimately talking about. Ok, I'll make it simpler. Allen did better at winning games in 2018 than Darnold did, and by a decent margin. And the head-to-head, while interesting, is pretty meaningless as it is ONE data point. By that logic, Jeff Hostetter is a better QB than Jim Kelly. He was on that day. That's Darnold's only game-winning drive so far. Allen has three in fewer games. Further, Allen's success came at the end of the season. Darnold only won that last game. I wasn't saying that it proved anything, except that one of them should not be getting that much better press than the other if we are talking about winning and losing. Allen has actually been better at it so far and at the end of last season. These all seem like "reasonably objective criteria" I guess what gets me a bit annoyed is that pundits act as if Allen can't win, when he did win games with a team that these same people would make fun of the offensive roster.

Thing is, Allen has already shown himself better at winning games than Darnold thus far. It does feel like the narrative has changed slightly where I'm starting to hear a lot of "mind you, I was down on him on draft day but I may have been wrong" (while not a pundit, I am in that camp myself) and hear him mentioned more often as one of the great young QBs. I'm not convinced that he's going to be a superstar, but I do like what I've seen, and feel like he has the potential (if he does all the things you say) of being an all-time great, and if he takes a step anywhere near that, if the defense stays stout (or improves, as it very well could with Oliver), this team could be very, very good. It could also be a nightmare. However, as much as I'm generally an optimist, this is the first time since Levy (or maybe pre-Music City Wade P.) that I've loved the coaching. I'm fascinated by Beane's plan and how in sync he seems with McD. So, while I've predicted good things in some bad years, I haven't been this excited since 2005, yet, weirdly, it is still cautious optimism. Either way, the pre-season portends to be fun, between Allen's growth, determining the o-line, the great stories (many of whom may not even make the team) of players like Sills, Wade, Duke Williams part deux, and a host of other things.

I'd say as of now, this is probably the best I've felt about the team since 2004 and a couple late acquisitions or early wins from feeling like it could be best I felt about team since before that dark day the three Hall of Famers were released. As for national press, the one thing I find telling is that the local press, which is usually fairly negative, but sees all that is happening, have been cautiously optimistic. I've seen three post-draft predictions and they've been 9-7, 9-7, 10-6. The national press is looking for what sells and there can only be so many chic teams. The Jets and Browns are sucking up all the atmosphere. It's ultimately that their moves have been more splashy, while ours have been methodical. While their moves were splashy (Bell, Mosley), we built more depth than they did, because we were a better team going in. People forget what a train wreck the Jets were at the end of the season, while after we gave the Jets their only win in the last 11 games, we had a winning record after that. It's harder to put what the Bills are doing into a sound bite. People understand Le'Veon Bell more than Beane's unique manner of fixing the line so Allen can grow. What I marvel at a bit is the cognitive dissonance. There's a general consensus that the Bills had one of the better off-seasons and one of the better drafts, but also that they are going to somehow not improve or even backtrack. Whatever: usually this bothers me more than it should, but I feel like regardless we are going to have an interesting pre-season full of compelling stories, and an exciting team to watch, a team that actually plays with passion and direction who we will feel happy for which to root.

We don't know his relationship with the coach. He may even prefer to sign a long-term contract than have the 5th year picked up. My opinion: we are way too hard on him here and he has rated very high on stopping the run, and still has the potential to show upside. That being said, I can understand the hesitance to tie ourselves to him next year. I could also have seen since we are likely to have an absurd amount of space, and the Pegulas a lot of money, taking the chance on holding him for another year. I hope he grows as a player and if he's the kind of player who fits in the system, he will want to come back to play next year.

Ha, that was the only part of that Simpsons sequence that annoyed me, but can't really argue with that image.

It's the Raiders! Anything is possible.

Foster was a huge prospect going into college and would be on pace for 1300 yards as a rookie based on his stats after his return from release. I'd say he's pretty promising. Zay Jones was hit-or-miss. Beasley and Brown have actually been pretty consistent in their career. Roberts is mostly for ST but he has done well as a WR4 or 5 in the past. It's not an amazing bunch, but it's not as terrible as you imply, and definitely improved over last year's bunch (who still went 5-5 with no consistency and many injuries when Allen played a complete game).

And we have the cap room, so it's worth the chance.