Garranimal

How gracious of you. Tebow was awesome today. Made the #1, yes the #1 pass defense look like Cincinnati in the sugar bowl. But there's always next week......and its amazing that your hatred for one player is enough to make you fan of the Patriots. This has got to be KILLING YOU.....KILLING YOU I SAY, KILLING YOU. Hey, where Reamius.

Uh, that's because an education from FSU makes you the smartest toll both worker..... (sorry, if you are going to serve a nice slow one over the plate, I have to knock it out of the park) As far as Andrew Luck goes, I think, like any QB coming out, he has a good chance of being very good, and a lesser chance of being a huge disappointment. Interesting read: http://www.nfldraftbible.com/Players/List/2013-Big-Board/Andrew-Luck.html Cons: The biggest issue with Luck is his awkward throwing motion. He has a windup that causes him to drop the ball below his waist before he throws it which, unlike Tim Tebow’s, doesn’t appear to add momentum to Luck’s passes. From what I have seen of Luck, he throws to a lot of wide open receivers....a critique i have heard of many other statistically good QBs in college. I don't see a ton of "tight window" throws. But i haven't watched an enormous amount of Luck's games. Make no mistake, he is clearly talented, but i am not sure he is as great as people think or predict.

Good smack. Thin skinned much? My point was/is....the cheifs may not be the same crappy team they were all season, specifically defensively since they have been playing light-out on D since Romeo Crennell took over the team after Todd Haley was fired. And if you watched the KC-Packers game, you would likely believe that they didn't throw the game, they simply got shut down but a coach who not 5 years ago was considered the top defensive mind in the game. Hey, why do any analysis when you can simply break out the narcissism.

Just out of curiosity, who lost to KC 2 weeks prior? Can't be the MVP-QB sportin' Packers, can it? Naw. There is a reason the games are actually played by humans rather than on Madden.....right? No? I can think of two super bowls in which the Giants had zero chance of winning. Ouch.

Ugh, I hear a lot of ESPN regurg' here. I think ESPN finally asked one of its analysts to actually do some research. Trent Dilfer, per twitter, last night: Quote: Tebow: Final thoughts this week after watching EVERY TT snap this year. A lot to unpack here, but I will try to keep brief Tebow: TT has shown MASSIVE improvement the last two games (MIN & Chi). Seeing it better, footwork, stroke, rhythm & accuracy Tebow: Obvious by watching tape that he will have more open receivers than most because the threat of his DESIGNED runs & option Tebow: This unique O puts D in HUGE conflict! It breaks rules, creates 1 on 1 tackling situations, & spreads secondaries thin. Tebow: Bronco's empty package(no backs),creates the most conflict for D, TT ability to be a power runner creates open rec in pass Tebow: EVERY empty formation pass play they have run as atleast 1 open rec, many times WIDE OPEN! Tebow: Vs. Bears TT had 5 dropped passes past 1st down marker, 4 drives they punted the other one was at the end of the half Tebow: Playing tight man accentuates the passing challenges, but exposes the D to the option game.Option FB runs D out of man cov Tebow:Initially I didn't think this type of offense was sustainable, but w/TT dramatic improvements & conflict I see D in,I pause Tebow: The key that allows him to not be as "pure" a passer & still have success is the DESIGNED runs.He must stay healthy 4 this Tebow:It goes w/out saying he needs to continue to make significant improvements,but based on what I've seen in 11 starts,he will Tebow: ONLY 11 STARTS, yet I & so many others forgot to see him through that lens.This will continue to be a fascinating study Tebow: An offseason of working on the RIGHT stuff & increasing his FB IQ will have a tremendous impact on his game. Tebow: For u simple minds out there, mobile QB's & this QB who dictates looks w/designed runs are two TOTALLY different things! https://twitter.com/#!/TDESPN

Here is a good read that actually uses facts to support an argument concerning Tebow. Though, something like this would never be acceptable on a serious news outlet like ESPN. Linky

Its amusing to see how much vitriol and venom spews forth from the detractors and outright haters......oh, and Seminoles (you know, that girl's school in Tallahassee with the circus college).

Maybe you didn't watch the game but I will help you out here, Tebow didn't need to break a number of tackles because nobody in the Jets secondary wanted to tangle with him. Cromartie looked like he was more than happy to get blocked in the end zone.

And i could as easily respond, that people are defending Tebow because people are CONTINUOUSLY STATING THEIR OPINIONS AS FACT AND DECLARING HIM A BUST BEFORE HE EVEN HAS 6-10 STARTS! wow, i can use caps too! By the way, capitalizing words doesn't make the point more correct or valid. In Bills parlance, i hope he gets even half the chances that Trent Edwards, JP, or Rob Johnson got. And quoting Ramius is pointless because as a Seminole, his hatred of Tebow goes back to when his Noles got steam-rolled by Tebow year after year after year....... Years with Tebow as the starter: 2007 Florida 45 Florida State 12 2008 Florida 45 Florida State 15 2009 Florida 37 Florida State 10

hmmm....nobody seems to mention the two missed field goals (one against the wind,one with the wind) by Prater.....nah. but then again, that would have been enough to beat Seattle, add one more field goal and it beats the browns too. Again, should colt mccoy convert to wide receiver at this point? The other think lost in all of the hyperbole, Denver was 1 and 4 going into that game.....people act like they were 4-1 and should have rolled the Dolphins (nevermind that the Broncos have NEVER, EVER beaten the dolphins at home). But yeah, the Broncos suck too......young receivers, horrible o-line.....and these are complaints that existed prior to yesterday. They aren't good, they still aren't good, but they are possibly better than they were with Orton. The history of the NFL is littered with skilled men who failed at the highest level....somewhere in the history to follow will be the story of Tim Tebow. He may succeed and he may fail, but currently, in one start, he has as many wins this season as the 7 year, highly accurate starter he replaced. I believe he will improve, i believe he has the skill set to succeed, i never ever state as fact that he will be great, i simply think a chance is warranted. Conversely, you have the very unbiased Ramius (see his avatar) who can state, with certainty that he will never succeed.....those statements, opinions as facts, are just so irritating.

I think you missed my point (it was rhetoric) i could have asked that question about any of the QBs listed. Where is the overwhelming over-analysis for Carson Palmer. The Raiders (yeah, i know, its the raiders) just mortgaged their future on a guy who threw 3 picks in 2 quarters of work. If Tebow completed 60% of his passes but threw 3 picks, oh the humanity!

Great post. I am here to eat a little crow myself. I thought Tebow was pretty horrible yesterday...and he definitely looked very hesitant to throw the ball, until it was absolutely necessary. What puzzles me though is that Christian Ponder (Ramius=nole=anti-tebow, go figure=ponder lover?) had the exact same number of completions as Tebow but with 5 more attempts and a passer rating below 60 while Tebow's passer rating was over 90. Again, i saw both games and Ponder certainly looked more poised. I believe that all of the hate and doubt being openly vented towards Tebow has gotten in his head. At times, he refused to throw the ball even when he had a receiver relatively open. And by the way, i watched the Vikes game start to finish, Ponder could have thrown at least 4 more picks in that game. But I think he played well, given it is his first start. Not to mention that nobody points out that Denver's receivers are all raw, and inexperienced. Demarius Thomas....uh...selected 22 in the draft was awful, but nobody questions his chances of being a bust, let alone so injury prone that he rarely sees the field for Denver. By the way, while the dolphins suck, they have the 15th ranked defense.......Green Bay's D is ranked 9th based on scoring, but GB has given up nearly 420 yard more on the defensive side. Charlie Whitehurst was 12 0f 30 with an interception and no TDs for a QB rating of 35.....where are all of the people lining up to tell him he will never be an NFL qb? Where is the doubt? I just don't get it. Colt McCoy, 20 of 35, a pick and rating of 59. The great Carson Palmer (he of the 1st and 2nd round picks) 8 of 21, 3 picks (pick 6) and a rating of 17.3? Where's the hate? Matt Cassel, 15 of 30 and 2 picks, for a rating of 38??? Matt Hasselbeck, 14 of 30, 2 picks and a rating of 39. Phillip Rivers???? 16 of 32, 2 costly picks and a rating of 51? Oh yeah, and don't give me anything about how great the Jets D is, as they are ranked 16th and have given up more yardage than the Dolphins D. I know, stats don't mean anything, so why do they keep stats?

Ugh, first of all, not one thing has been "disproven"....secondly, I have never stated that the are the sole indicator....i have stated repeatedly (ad nauseum) that they are AN INDICATOR that is relevant whether anyone cares to admit it or not....toilet training stories aside (WTF?). And while you can throw examples of good college QBs who never made it in the NFL, I can do the exact same thing citing examples of college QBs who were both excellent in college and in the pros. But to sit there and try to make a convincing argument that college performance (and stats) have nothing to do with how a player is evaluated is asinine. And Moneyball is completely relevant because it is about how baseball people who looked at how Football players were so heavily tracked with statistics and decided to bring that type of evaluation process to baseball. Please go talk to any NFL scout and ask them how many college (and even high school) stats they pour over. Oh and by the way, college baseball uses aluminum bats....which is fundamentally a huge difference between college and pro....but yeah, whatever argument works.

so every list but one has 6 NFL starters on it (the other list has 5). Are you saying that supports your argument or mine? That's 30% of the list....I can't believe you wouldn't see that as incredibly accurate....not to mention that Jamarcus Russell was a number 1 overall pick with a wealth of talent but a mental age of about 13 and a work ethic equal to Mike Williams. 6 current starters out of the 20 on the list??? Without looking it up, there are approximately 120 Div 1A teams (and how many other college teams, like say, Coe College) which churn out players to play on 32 teams. 6 of those teams have starting quarterbacks who were in the top 20 statistically in the SEC in a ten year span (plus Peyton Manning)....is that right?

Ok, I have had enough of your insults and garbage. Ever read the book Moneyball? Can you actually read? Ask your mom to read it to you? Stats aren't all you need, but they are so friggin crucial that you have no idea how important they really are. You strike me as idiot and an internet tough guy.

Ok Mr. "i am here to pass judement" dude, please show me where...oh where...other than the one post where i said specifically...."in my opinion" have i not used factual data? Where? Oh, i know, you have no argument so you reduce the conversation to insults and condescending remarks. I am not treating Tebow like Justin Beiber, i am supporting my arguments with facts and data....and it clearly irks the crap out of you and one other not named DrDaruestein. Ok....now you are just bring completely obtuse. Statistics are the numerical product of performance.....i can understand english, apparently you don't understand what statistics actually mean.....statistics are the byproduct of performance. If a car goes 0-60 in 5 seconds, the result is a numerical product of the car's performance. And stop being so frickin' condescending. If you are so frustrated, stop posting.

I am sorry guys, to say college performance has zero to do with NFL production is the most absurd, far fetched statement I have EVER seen on this board...and i have seen a bunch. So tell me guys, how are draft boards created? How was Marcell Dareus determined to be a #2 overall pick. Isn't Andrew Luck's college performance exactly what has everyone spooging all over themselves about? How can I even have a discussion with pretzel logic? In the words of Chris Carter, C'mon man!

So you are saying, no reasonable person thinks that college stats have some bearing on pro potential....is that a correct interpretation of what you said? I simply picked interceptions as a result of the problematic delivery you were critiquing.....is that not the potential result of what you are saying? If a DB has all of this extra time to react wouldn't there be increased interceptions?

1]. Because of about ten disparate small factors in his throwing motion, mechanics and style, by the time that Tebow sees a target, processes the information, makes the throw, and the ball arrives at the intended destination (if it does) the DBs have way too much time to deflect it, intercept it, or kill his receivers. It has nothing to do with arm strength, he has plenty of it. He got away with this in college because the defensive players were not as fast and quick and clever as NFL ones are. If he doesn't get 100% better at this, his chances to succeed plummet. This is the problem most people have with him. Part of it is his mechanics, partly the wind-up and baseball throw, partly the hitch, partly the elongated motion, partly he doesn't make decisions and set the motion going quickly, partly the way he holds the ball, partly because he's so stocky, plus other stuff. That is why it will be hard for him to be a pocket passer, not because he can't throw passes from the pocket like he did in college. Now here i will throw some opinion at your opinion, given that the SEC puts more defensive players in the NFL than any other conference, given that Tebow has not only played 4 years in the SEC and then TWO National Championship games against the best of the Big 10 and the Big 12 (Both teams having vaunted defenses at that time) wouldn't it be likely that he would have a statistically high interception percentage...overall and in those games....i mean due to that disastrous throwing motion? Logically, would that not be true....at least a little true? I mean, maybe even just an average number of INTs....certainly not a low percentage of INTs? Right? And yet, in the 2009 BCS Championship Game..... T. Tebow 18 30 231 60.0 7.7 0 0 2 2 Comp Att Yds Pct Y/A Sack YdsL TD Int S. Bradford 26 41 256 63.4 6.2 2 18 2 2 Is Bradford's throwing motion a problem or is he just inaccurate? Oh, don't forget this stat line.... Florida Rush Yds Avg Lng TD FumL P. Harvin 9 122 13.6 52 1 0 T. Tebow 22 109 5.0 15 0 03 ranked team.... and in the 2010 Sugar Bowl...against the # 3 team in the nation C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT T. Tebow 31/35 482 13.8 3 0 T. Pike 27/45 170 3.8 3 0 ok, i know that is a small sample..... Peyton Manning @ Tennessee Year Attempts Comp Comp % Yards INT TD's Rat. 1994 144 89 61.8 1141 6 11 145.2 1995 380 244 64.2 2954 4 22 146.5 1996 380 243 63.9 3287 12 20 147.7 1997 477 287 60.37 3819 11 37 147.7 Total 1354 851 62.85 11201 33 90 146.8 Dan Marino @ Pitt Year Att Comp Pct. yards TD INT Rat. 1979 222 130 .586 1680 10 9 80.5 1980 224 116 .518 1609 15 14 71.4 1981 380 226 .595 2876 37 23 90.4 1982 378 221 .584 2432 17 23 67.3 Total 1204 693 .576 8597 79 69 77.7 Andrew Luck 2009 288 162 56.3 2575 13 4 143.5 2010 372 263 70.7 3338 32 8 170.2 Aaron Rodgers 2003 349 215 61.6 2903 19 5 146.6 2004 316 209 66.1 2566 24 8 154.3 Jim Kelly Year Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Int Rate 1979 48 104 46.2 721 5 6 108.7 1980 109 206 52.9 1519 11 7 125.7 1981 168 285 58.9 2403 13 14 135.0 1982 51 81 63.0 585 3 1 133.4 376 676 55.6 5228 32 28 127.9 Tim Tebow Year Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Int Rate 2006 22 33 66.7 358 5 1 201.7 2007 234 350 66.9 3286 32 6 172.5 2008 192 298 64.4 2746 30 4 172.4 2009 213 314 67.8 2895 21 5 164.2 Career 661 995 66.4 9285 88 16 170.8 Oh yeah, college doesn't count......see pro stats above. Dan Marino....69 interceptions??? that guy must suck! Well how can you scream sample size on one hand and college stats don't count on the other. All that is left is opinion.....if you throw out every valid piece of evidence, what is left? I can only compare what has happened, everyone else wants to tell me what will happen in the future...which at this point, i have nothing to argue with. Again Past performance = best predictor of future performance. Good grief.

And its things like "your boy", Tebow fan-boys and Teblow that make the other side sound as fanatical about him being a failure. If anyone wants to discuss, fine, but don't attack those who don't have your opinion, call names, antagonize or most importantly....end your opinion with a statement that attempts to factually state what will happen in the future. Has anyone here ever been to an actual debate or participated in one...no not a political debate....those stopped being debates about 20 years ago? I mean a real academically judged debate where opinions are nice, but facts are what count. Geez, its a message board, have a spirited conversation, but why does everyone feel they have to be right...and in the absence of being right, be loud and condescending.....?? How about these facts....just to name a few. A general comparison of stats from the FIRST THREE STARTS of the following QBs. Passing Yards 683 Peyton Manning 651 Tim Tebow 618 Tom Brady 511 Matt Ryan 504 Drew Brees 488 Phillip Rivers 225 Michael Vick Passing TDs 4 Tim Tebow 3 Drew Brees 3 Phillip Rivers 2 Peyton Manning 2 Matt Ryan 2 Tom Brady 2 Michael Vick Rushing Yards 199 Tim Tebow 123 Michael Vick 41 Drew Brees 26 Peyton Manning 23 Matt Ryan 12 Phillip Rivers 11 Tom Brady Rushing TDs 3 Tim Tebow 1 Michael Vick 0 Drew Brees 0 Peyton Manning 0 Matt Ryan 0 Phillip Rivers 0 Tom Brady Completion percentage: Peyton Manning 56.8, 63.6, 45.5 Tim Tebow 50, 55.2, 44.4 Tom Brady 56.5, 50, 61.1 Matt Ryan 69.2, 39.4, 66.7 Drew Brees 78.9, 53.6, 54.8 Phillip Rivers 72.7, 71.4, 59.1 Michael Vick 33.3, 40, 65.2 QB Rating Peyton Manning 58.6, 51.1, 39.3 Tim Tebow 100.5, 89.4, 58.2 Tom Brady 79.6, 58.7, 93.4 Matt Ryan 137, 29.6, 120.6 Drew Brees 136.8, 68, 58.7 Phillip Rivers 133.9, 99.1, 75 Michael Vick 70.1, 46, 108.8 Experience level during 1st three starts R Tim Tebow R Matt Ryan R Peyton Manning R Michael Vick (1st two starts) 2 Drew Brees 2 Tom Brady 3 Phillip Rivers Here is what i got out of your post..... "this is what i think and these are points in my opinion that support what i think" Look at the stats i have posted. How can you possibly look at every single one of those stats and then say....somehow, someway...through apparently only luck, that in his first three starts, he has posted competitively comparable stats in every passing category to a list of QBs who are accepted as NFL caliber? That makes Tebow one lucky blind squirrel. Now, am i saying Tebow will be anywhere near as good as any of those guys.......no...and hell no....but what i am saying is at this point in his career in the NFL, if you put him on a curve compared to other QBs, he is well within a normal expectation of where an accomplished NFL QB should be. Where is the exuberance in this post? He has some of the greatest college passer stats and now has a very small sample of stats in the NFL and they compare favorably to other QBs who have gone on to be successful.

meh, yawn....can't argue facts so just attack those who don't fall into lock-step with your opinion. It's the new American civility.

Kelly, i have argued with you before on the Tebow subject and what strikes me as odd is that you seem to have to be right and have the last word on the subject every time it comes up. To me, you are as invested in his being a failure as others are in his succeeding. And by the way, predicting a QB from USC to be a failure is like predicting a girl who is a playmate is probably hot.

Actually, it bothered me even more because he was a Buffalo Bills player. Either way, using childish names just erodes the credibility of the post....how can you not acknowledge that?

yeah, cause that has never happened in Buffalo, or 30 other cities in the NFL. Have you forgotten when the stadium cheered when Rob Johnson was injured?

Well, actually it is dictionary.com's definition.....and thank you for proving my point. troll definition n. an internet user who sends inflammatory or provocative messages designed to elicit negative responses or start a flame-war.