Hapless Bills Fan

Not sure...it's not just the player, but the relationship with the agent etc. Breida is not entirely interchangable with any RB because of the speed thing - Same reason we don't want to let Stevenson go even though he's a developmental guy

Oh, interesting calls on Hollister and Breida. I thought for sure both would have to clear waivers but I looked and I think you're correct. I'm thinking the Bills are more likely to ask a player who has been on the roster last season and has built more track record of trust (both ways) to do the Roberts maneuver though.

OK, according to this it was 85% torn https://sportsnaut.com/bills-legend-thurman-thomas-played-entire-career-with-torn-acl/ And yes, he played his entire HOF career with an 85% torn ACL I'm not arguing that a better option *could* become available, but I don't think you cut Butler and just assume you're gonna find someone else.

Given that Stevenson hurt his ankle, went hobbling off with 2 trainers, then later was seen on the sideline in a walking boot and didn't return to the game, there isn't a need for much "mystery" there. The thing is, he needs much development, so I don't like the notion of stashing him on IR for the season, which has to happen unless he starts the year on the 53.

Thought this would be interesting to compare a 53 man roster prediction from @Matt Parrino here. https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2021/08/projecting-bills-53-man-roster-after-win-vs-bears-josh-allen-says-brandon-beane-faces-tough-decisions.html Quarterback (2): Josh Allen, Mitch Trubisky Cut: Jake Fromm, Davis Webb Running back (4): Devin Singletary, Zack Moss, Matt Breida, Reggie Gilliam Cut: Taiwan Jones, Antonio Williams, Christian Wade Note: Parrino thinks Jones will be cut and then brought back when someone at another position is IR'd Wide receiver (7): Stefon Diggs, Emmanuel Sanders, Cole Beasley, Gabriel Davis, Isaiah McKenzie, Jake Kumerow, Marquez Stevenson Cut: Isaiah Hodgins, Lance Lenoir, Duke Williams, Tanner Gentry, Brandon Powell Tight end (3): Dawson Knox, Jacob Hollister, Tommy Sweeney Cut: Bug Howard, Nate Becker, Quintin Morris Note: Parrino thinks Sweeney may be kept on the 53, thenplaced on IR to make room for Jones. Offensive line (9): Dion Dawkins, Jon Feliciano, Mitch Morse, Cody Ford, Daryl Williams, Spencer Brown, Ryan Bates, Ike Boettger, Tommy Doyle Cut: Jamil Douglas, Forrest Lamp, Jordan Devey, Bobby Hart, Tyler Gauthier, Jack Anderson Defensive end (7): Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison, A.J. Epenesa, Greg Rousseau, Carlos Basham, Efe Obada, Darryl Johnson Jr. Cut: Mike Love Defensive tackle (4): Star Lotulelei, Ed Oliver, Harrison Phillips, Vernon Butler Cut: Justin Zimmer, Brandin Bryant, Treyvon Hester Linebacker (5): Tremaine Edmunds, Matt Milano, A.J. Klein, Andre Smith, Tyler Matakevich Cut: Joe Giles-Harris, Tyrell Adams, Tyrel Dodson, Marquel Lee Cornerback (5): Tre’Davious White, Levi Wallace, Taron Johnson, Dane Jackson, Siran Neal Cut: Cam Lewis, Rachad Wildgoose, Elijah Griffin, Nick McCloud Safety (4): Micah Hyde, Jordan Poyer, Jaquan Johnson, Damar Hamlin Cut: Josh Thomas, Tariq Thompson Specialists (3): Tyler Bass, Matt Haack, Reid Ferguson It's a reasonable stab. Places I disagree: OL: I think we either cut Doyle and keep Hart initially, or keep Doyle to IR him and sign a backup OT from some other teams's cut list. DT: I don't see how McDermott can say all the stuff he's said about Zimmer, then cut the man. I think it's possible we do a "cut-resign" with Butler (who is a 6 year vested vet and not subject to waivers) then IR Phillips if we think his knee isn't 100%. CB: I think we need to keep 6, somehow. Probably Cam Lewis. If the question is "who steps up if both Wallace and White are down at the same time?" I don't think Neal is the answer. But I don't have a great idea who else we cut to make room.

They seem to be having him play inside more than I woulda thought, and he seems to be handling some double blocks pretty well in those clips. Takes on the double, gets off 'em and gets a sack in one clip.

IIRC, Basham had a strong ST play (blocked an XP) vs. Chicago as well. If he can keep making plays on ST while he grows as a defender, that will add value. Agreed on Baldy. As for the Bears OL, I haven't followed other team's OL moves except KC a bit, but I think the Bears OL was solidly mediocre (15th or something) for sack % last season while the Lions OL was bottom third - 'course, QB mobility is a factor there, but any reason to think the Bears OL downgraded or the Lions OL improved?

NY Jets beat reporter. His twitter feed seems unusually focused on defending/excusing for Lamar Jackson Then there's this: Church of Latter Day Saints should be taking names, just in case....

Well, Hey. This guy's got you But in the end, There Can Be Only One.

Duplicate Thread

So a couple things. First off, it has to be recognized that coaches and FO are probably not able to overcome their unconscious biases: they will be pre-disposed to perceive more positives in highly drafted players vs late round picks, and players who were drafted at all over UDFA. There was a study of basketball playing time that found one of the highest predictors of a player's playing time after scoring was....not any metrics about defense or anything else posited as important...Draft position...and this bias persisted for years. So frankly, for an undrafted guy from a DIII school to even stick around on various practice squads year after year, says something strong about the abilities he shows. It's also not unusual for late round/UDFA who eventually make it in the NFL, to take 3-4 years to make it to a roster and start getting looks. Kumerow came out in 2015 and first got game time snaps in 2018. Second, I haven't watched the Chicago game yet, but the reports out of both Packers AND Bills camp is that his routerunning and quickness ARE exceptional, especially for a big WR. No, he won't blow past someone, but he can fake them out. And I'm puzzled by the idea that a 210 lb 6'4" WR can't outmuscle, say, a 5'10" 190 lb cornerback. It's not just the sheer muscle mass or static strength that matter, it's power. I'm not saying he has it, I'm just saying you can't tell whether or not he does, just by his height and weight. Third, it has to be recognized that when you get to the back of the roster, the WRs MUST play special teams and they must have other skills - blocking, at least downfield. Kumerow is apparently a sound blocker both downfield and in the backfield - he got a shout-out for springing Singletary vs Chicago, I saw him hit a nice downfield block against the Lions, and I've seen video of him blocking in the backfield for GB, quite capably. He apparently has the right fearless, abandoned, but in control (just) attitude that makes a good STer. The hands do worry me. The primary thing a WR on any team has to do is...Catch the Ball.

This. Frankly, I think it took Daboll a couple of years to grow into the OC position and the growth, at least last season-and-a-half, involved booting his ass off of the sidelines and kicking him upstairs where he was a bit less emotionally involved in the previous play and better able to reset and move on, especially early on when his hard-headed young QB might be ignoring his instructions at times or failing to recognize patterns and answers he should have been seeing. It involved changes in his approach to/treatment of players. The jury is out on whether Daboll will be a great HC or not, but I wouldn't bet against there being a transition and growth period needed.

I suppose, but given the conditioning struggles of Dawkins and Boettger, better to not get it.

At final cutdowns, Yes. But to get through the remaining practices with an expanded roster/4 QB and the final preseason game - no. I had hopes for him to provide a healthy dose of competition at Guard as well, and also some hopes for Jamil Douglas. But you can't compete if you can't play. Agree, disappointing.

There have been people who mistrust McKenzie based upon his career fumble history, added to the muff vs. the Bears, and are saying they'd rather see Stevenson back there based on Da Bears game and that runback. I think it's a kind of "better the Devil you don't know than the Devil you know" philosophy. I think the Bills will decide KR/PR based on the overall body of work in training camp and games, not based upon one game. Word out of the public scrimmages was that Stevenson and Powell did not look as smooth and comfortable back there and were muffing punts. And correct, the long catch and the TD on the punt return do make it less likely that he'd slide through waivers, so if we like his potential we kind of have to IR him or keep him on the 53. Stevenson was seen in a walking boot on the sidelines Saturday, and not seen by reporters at practice on Sunday, so it's possible he's a candidate for IR. If they IR him and want to bring him back, he's got to be on the 53 man roster to start the season. FWIW, as far as I can tell Jake Kumerow *would* be subject to waivers if cut.

Didn't see any snaps from Lamp. I'm not sure he's been playing at all. I had high hopes for him, but if you can't play you can't stay. We seem to be getting more out of Jamil Douglas

Thanks, helpful! So for what it's worth, I don't believe Mike Love and Treyvon Hester played a snap on Sunday. For guys at the bottom of the roster, that's often a sign that the team has decided they aren't the answer and don't want to risk injury. Tyler Gauthier played 21% of the snaps at Center. Jordan Devey played 35% of the snaps at Center. I'm unsure who was playing center when Webb had a fumble that appeared to be caused by a botched exchange - I think it was Gauthier. One of these guys may be a candidate to "move on". The other is likely to stay so we have a camp body center. I think Gauthier may be the better center, and is also young (24) and presumably could be developed, but they liked Devey (age 33) enough to keep him on the PS all last season, bring him up for a game, and bring him back. I tend to think that having missed most of camp on the Covid-19 list, Marquise Lee may be a Turk candidate. Bug Howard, a late signing, only played 8 snaps. Unless they were spectacular snaps, he might be lin line to move along, but we are pretty thin at TE so there's that. So, my guess: Mike Love Treyvon Hester Bug Howard Jordan Devey Marquise Lee

Last year's 5th round pick made the team, but was kind of a special circumstance (Fromm, the Bubble QB) 2019 5th round pick Vosean Joseph was IR'd at the end of August and waived from IR in early September. 2018 5th round picks were Wyatt Teller (traded at the end of August in 2019 after starting at guard from week 10 on in 2018) and Siran Neal (who quickly became a ST starter as a rookie and has never looked back) 2017 5th round picks were Nathan Peterman (shudder) and Matt Milano (ahhhhh!). Milano as a rookie was a ST regular and Peterman was the backup QB ahead of Cardale Jones and TJ Yates (Yikes! those were the days - or, Maybe Not) So a 5th round pick under McBeane has certainly not been assured of making the team but has made the opening day roster more often than not.

C'Mon, Man

I think Mike Love, DE and Trevon Hester DT get cut. Neither of them played and it's not because they're considered "locks" nor have I heard about them as injured. Bug Howard got 11% of the snaps (8) and again not because he's considered a "lock", so that's one where I agree with you. With the number of WR they appear to want to "bubble wrap" I'm not sure we're cutting a WR.

Sweeney in a walking boot and not seen at practice today. Unclear what the issue is, but could be very disappointing for Sweeney

Interesting Chicago perspective on the loss https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-chicago-bears-buffalo-bills-justin-fields-andy-dalton-20210822-6qudnna7tzhpxa4gqgli777qli-story.html (they want you to subscribe, but I could read the whole thing in a narrow window under the annoying pop-up "subscribe" window) Of course they don't know the Bills, but I found it interesting that they note "10 Bears starters or key reserves didn't play at all and a handful of others were done by the time the first quarter ended" as a kind of apology - but don't mention that at least 16 Bills starters didn't play at all, including the starting QB, the top 3 WR, the starting C, the starting RT, the starting 1TDT, both probable starting DE, both starting LB, and all four starting DB (with two starting DTs getting only 9% of the snaps and the starting LT and LG only 2 series). I thought this guy put it succinctly:

Seems like a good place to put this Joe B assessment of the same thing (risers/fallers) https://theathletic.com/2782792/2021/08/22/bills-risers-and-fallers-devin-singletary-zack-moss-answer-call-at-rb-ot-depth-is-a-concern/?source=emp_shared_article&redirected=1 Risers: Singletary Moss (calls out Kumerow for throwing an excellent block in space for Motor) DE Epenesa CB McCloud Fallers (I feel as though Boettger in particular did a capable job in pass protection last season, and would probably be capable this season - though one wonders if there's a difference between RG and LG for either of them) CB Siran Neal - BamBam is stout on ST, but if the question is "who is our backup CB?" I agree with Joe B that Neal doesn't seem to be the answer LB Tyrel Dodson CB Rachad Wildgoose One thing I haven't heard anyone mention, good or bad, is Tanner Gentry. He got a lot of playing time according to Sal Capaccio - 36% of the snaps, 27 snaps. He had 1 reception on 1 target for 9 yds, which is better than a kick in the patooties I guess but what's up? Is he not getting separation? Does he need an orange "snow pole" to help the QB notice him? What?

I think you're exactly right. And we may wind up cutting or trading a guy who (long term) may be a better player in favor of keeping someone who better fills a need we have to win-right-TF-now. Similar to when we cut Wyatt Teller (a young player with higher ceiling, but development needs) in favor of Spencer Long (a capable backup center who could play either guard spot) after a preseason where Mitch Morse was out with concussion and the immediate win-right-now need was to be sure we had a starting quality NFL center. It's a really big question how Beane is going to figure this out.

Cruciate ligaments are a strange thing. Didn't Thurman Thomas play his entire HOF career without one? On the other hand he wasn't usually trying to shove 2 - 300 lb men sideways.