metzelaars_lives

So if you met an old venerable Native American man out in South Dakota- let's even say a medicine man- and he invited you to join him and his family for a sweat in his sweat lodge and while sharing his pipe with you, he explained to you how in his grandfather's day, redskin was a term that caused great pain among his people and he and his contemporaries had always found it offensive despite the younger generation's growing indifference, you would ridicule him? I know you have all these Native American friends- maybe sometime they should take you on a little road trip out west and you can see some of the reservations in Utah, Arizona and New Mexico so you can see how they're all capitalizing on this issue and really living it up. And while you're out there, make sure and ridicule all of the ones that tell you they are offended by the term redskin. Especially the older ones. That'll show em.

You got me a little bit there but Jesus, I've written a freaking book in this thread already so you were bound to get me somehow. Either way thanks for reading. I guess what I was trying to say is that my opinion is that I'm supporting the Native Americans who do have an issue with the name. I have maintained throughout this thread that I don't care that much about this issue directly. It bothers me none. And yes it is offensive to me when white people take issue with the Native Americans who are offended. Read through this thread and you will find people who have placed themselves in the "I don't see why they should care" or "I know ol' Joe down at the smoke shop and he doesn't care so therefore none of them should" camp. They are taking a direct stance and saying "the name should not offend them." I am not asserting such an opinion as to whether they should or should not be offended. I am merely saying, many of them are offended so I defer to them on this one. I promise I wouldn't make an issue out of this if I didn't see the commercial they aired during the NBA Finals last year and the statement made by the NCAI, etc. There is clearly a strong contingent of Native Americans who do care about this issue and I support them. That is my opinion.

I don't know what that means. Are you intimating that I fall into that crowd? You were right, he did write that. My mistake. Hey Rob, how does anyone stand to gain monetarily if the name were to be changed?

Actually I'm gonna circle back to this one here for a second. So you know a few native Americans who have no issue with the name. Perfect. After reading more about this, according to most polls, more than half of Native Americans don't have an issue with the name. Now granted, many of them are probably younger, like football and just don't care. Regardless, let's say for the sake of argument that most Native Americans don't care. I am aware of this. That being said, what if the handful of Native Americans you happen to hang out with were among the millions of them who do care and they cared very deeply about it. Do you think you might feel differently then? I would assume you would be adamantly in favor of changing the name because you have stated that you are going to err on the side of the opinion of the handful of Native Americans you do know. What if you meet Native Americans who are deeply offended by the name in the future? Would their opinion hold any water or are you sticking with the few people you already know? Better yet, why don't you take a ride to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota sometime and ask around up there what they think. Are you like an ostrich? Do you think because you haven't met a Native American that is offended by the name that they don't really exist? OK so you would acknowledge that "capitalize" may have been a poor choice of words on your behalf. And I think we could both agree that there really is no ulterior motive for people to get behind this cause other than because they think it's the right thing to do.

Yeah I don't know man. Anyway how do people who are in favor changing the name stand to capitalize in this case? Figure third time might be a charm here.

What is?

Cool man. Go Bills.

Thank you Rocky. And ya know, just because I'm not an actual Native American does not mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on the matter or defend their cause. If in the 1860's, I lived in Boston and was anti-slavery, I feel like half of the people on here would have said, "who are you to tell me how slaves feel about slavery? How do you know they don't like it... I met a slave once and he said he didn't mind it at all... You're just a white, coast-dwelling, book reading, elitist, PC liberal." But who was it who authorized the abolishment of slavery? It wasn't Frederick Douglass. Similarly, the Native Americans alone do not have the authority or manpower to get rid of this name. So it's probably going to take a few white guys to help out along the way. Often times throughout history it takes support and compassion for oppressed groups from those outside the oppressed themselves to evoke change. Do you think that gay marriage would have ever become legal in one state in this country if only gay people supported it? Is the name Redskins as egregious as the institution of slavery or even anti-gay marriage sentiment? No. Were there people in the 1860's who I'm sure said those exact things about a white northerner opposing slavery? Absolutely, of course. And ya know what? I don't really care that much about this issue at all. The term "redskins" doesn't really offend me that much. I just find it ridiculous that anyone could adamantly argue against the name change as if changing the name somehow offends them.

I don't care to debate this one any longer but I think it's pretty clear that you lack a perspective on and certainly a compassion for the plight of a once proud people who occupied the land that we live on for 15,000 years until 150 years ago. And for the hundredth time, I am not speaking on their behalf. I am merely saying, listen to them. Again, if they didn't care, I wouldn't care. Plenty of them care. And you, whether you realize it or not, are telling them- not me- that you don't care about the offense THEY are taking here. Forget about me for a second. Indians is a term that gained a bit of traction as maybe being somewhat offensive 20 years ago or so (after all, they're not freaking Indians- Louis CK has a great bit on that) but they have pretty much come to terms with that one and are way cooler with it than "redskins."

FireChan, we've been allies in the past on a subject far more controversial than this one- EJ Manuel. Let's be cool. Number one, you do nitpick little words in my posts and then completely gloss over questions that I ask you. I'm still waiting for you to tell me who stands to capitalize from the Redskins potentially changing their name to, say the Warriors. Number two, if you are trying to expose some sort of contradiction on my part by saying that white people shouldn't weigh in on this subject (which I have maintained- I am only supporting the sentiment of many Native Americans here- if they didn't care, I wouldn't care) but that predominantly white lawmakers would ultimately have to get involved in the changing of the name, come on man, you're smarter than that. Who else is going to get involved? There really isn't a strong contingent of Native Americans in Congress. The National Congress of American Indians doesn't really have the jurisdiction to rule on this one. So of course white (and black) lawmakers will have to be involved in this process and that doesn't go against anything I have said.

Not really. I'm talking to two different people there. If one person wants to engage in a serious discussion, I will be friendly with them. I so much prefer that. But then if someone else just comes in like a moron, I'm going to respond that way. Just the way I'm wired.

Please read up on the subject. This is a controversial one, no doubt. It is not as black and white as say, the n-word for instance. But there is enough there to warrant a discussion. None of us were around during the 1800's. We no longer have encounters with backwoods Indians as we are trying to settle on the prairie. My guess is that back then it was not used as a term of endearment. But I hope you can see why there is at least controversy surrounding the term "redskin" as opposed to "Texan." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redskin_(slang)

I like that this conversation has turned into a civil one, thank you. If you feel this is truly a matter of private ownership/trademarking and you would honestly be OK with a baseball team called the Mississippi Negroes, then I respect your stance. I agree 1000% that the name was not intended to cause offense. It was named after their first coach, who was part Native American. That being said, wouldn't you agree that in the 1970's plenty of people referred to blacks as "coloreds" or even "negroes" and they similarly meant no offense whatsoever? You could say, "hey those colored folks sure can play basketball" and no one would find that offensive for one second. If Brent Musberger called a player "colored" this football season he would be fired before halftime. That's just the way it is. The point is that, whether anyone likes it or not, we are living in more PC times and evidently many Native Americans find it offensive now. I think another HUGE point here that no on has mentioned is that Native Americans have been so beaten down as a people throughout the years that they've never really had a voice or an advocate and apparently now they do. Alright you don't have to nitpick every last word. They, OK? The powers that be. Whoever would forcibly change the name of a baseball team called the Mississippi Negroes.

That's funny, you live in Connecticut and I live in Colorado. Your state is literally on the coast of the Atlantic Ocean and my state borders Nebraska, Kansas, Wyoming and Utah. Nor am I middle upper class- certainly not at the moment. And what makes you think I don't know s**t about Native Americans? I'm not going to give you my Native American knowledge credentials but I happen to have a pretty good understanding as to their history and culture- both through studies and personal experiences. And again, I'm not preaching anything. I'm only asking that we defer to them. If they didn't care, I wouldn't care. After doing some more reading about this last night, I was surprised to see that based on many polls, many of them don't care. But I think enough of them do- most notably the official stance taken by the National Congress of American Indians- that we should consider respecting their wishes. Is that douchey enough for ya?

Let's not argue here, OK? I think we can make this work without being abrasive. 1. You are incorrect in your assertion that this is some sort of movement manufactured by the white, liberal, elitist PC police out of thin air and like five Native Americans shrugged their shoulders and were like, "OK sure, I could go along with that." Please see the ad that I posted and more importantly, please read what Rocky Landing posted regarding the National Congress of American Indians' official statement on this matter posted right on the previous page of this thread. Thank you. 2. You say "capitalize." What does anyone stand to gain by the Redskins changing their name to the Warriors? 3. I agree that the Redskins logo is a proud logo and I don't think anyone takes any issue with the "symbolism" of the logo. It is just the name. That's it. Personally, I would think that the ridiculous Cleveland Indians' logo (they've started to phase that out, right?) would be far more offensive than the name "Redskins" but again, I am not a judge here. Only they can be. 4. Which leads me to number 4. As I have stated numerous times already, I AM NOT A SPOKESPERSON FOR THE NATIVE AMERICANS. That's my whole point. Neither are you. If they say they are offended, we have to defer to them on this one. Neither of us can make that call. I am the anti-spokesperson. You are trying to be a spokesperson. If there was no movement to get rid of this name and no Native Americans took issue with it, I certainly wouldn't give a s**t. So I'm not anointing myself anything. It's literally the complete opposite of that. Dude. That is not apples to apples. Texans are people from Texas. That is why no one takes issue with the name Seminoles (please don't find an article where someone does, I'm sure it exists). Seminoles are Seminoles. That's what they call themselves. "Redskins" is an offensive term. According to them, it is the most offensive term. No Texan has ever taken issue with the term Texan ever.

So you would fully support a major league baseball team called the Mississippi Negroes because the team was privately owned? What if the mascot was a proud negro and not a comical one? Would that make a difference? I guess I would ask you the same question that you asked me earlier- where would you draw the line? Me personally, I draw the line at nicknames for entire races that could be construed and interpreted as offensive to people of that race.

Thanks for not arguing. I much prefer having civil conversations on here, even though I realize I myself often times come off as argumentative. So thank you. The one thing I would ask is whether the Choctaw themselves began using the word "Oklahoma" or if that was a name given to them by white settlers who learned some of the language. For instance, my understanding is that we mistakenly began calling the Lakota Indians "Sioux" even though the word Sioux actually means "enemy" in the Lakota language. It is more than a small percentage in this case. When a race of people is offended by a depiction of their race- particularly a race whose genocide served as the foundation for the expansion of this very country and one that was lied to, pissed on, left for dead and to this day lives largely in squalor as a direct result of our doing- I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Look I never really thought that the word "Redskins" seemed that offensive to me. But that is not the point here. The point is whether it offends them. What is INCREDIBLY offensive to me is when other white people weigh in on this subject and assert their opinion as if it matters whatsoever. The Native Americans who this does offend took out this ad with their own money (guessing it cost quite a bit being that it was a full two minute spot) and aired it during the NBA Finals last year. Instead of arguing with me, you should be arguing with the people behind this commercial and telling them they shouldn't be offended. We should both be on the sidelines. This is so dumb and juvenile.

Why do the white people on this website keep telling everyone how either a) the term "Redskins" doesn't offend them or b) they met a Native American guy once and it didn't offend him. Clearly it has offended enough of them for it become an issue. And yes it is true that in the 1950's it was a non-issue and all of a sudden it is now. Ralph Kramden used to tell his wife that one of these days he was gonna punch her in the face so hard that she was going to go flying to the moon. We live in more PC times. That would not be acceptable today. If it offends even a small percentage of the Native American population that is enough for me to defer to them and not try and tell them what should and should not offend them. They have been through enough for Christ's sake- especially in Oklahoma! Have you ever spent time on a rez?

I'm not sure we do disagree. I don't think John Murphy is a very good announcer at all. The only reason I like him at all is because of the link with the old broadcast and the familiarity of his voice. Like I said, I did like him as a color man with Van back in the day. Do you ever notice how he constantly messes up little things- like he'll say the wrong score or he'll allude to the wrong team the Bills are playing? He does it a few times every game. Anyway the fact that this thread is still only on the second page speaks to my original point that Van Miller is underappreciated.

Gotta go yankees, canadiens, celtics and jaguars

My friend just caddied for Jeffrey Lurie this weekend and said he was the coolest dude ever. I'll take his word on that one. He spent 4 1/2 straight hours with him.

Obviously. We're talking about grown men who have lived on this earth for decades and because you met someone for two minutes once and he signed your kid's jersey doesn't necessarily mean that you can tell everyone what kind of a guy they are. Hell, millions of people thought Bill Cosby was a real swell guy for the last 40 years. This thread is more amusing than anything else.

Met Ralph Wilson once just a few years before he passed. He was hanging out at one of the real seedy strip clubs off of Lundy's Lane- like not the Sundowner. Anyway he rolled in with a bunch of other real old guys and they were really yuckin it up. I'm talkin grabbing and pinching the strippers' asses and then winking at them after they'd turn around, etc. They were getting warned by the bouncers but Ralph was quick to pull out the "do you know who I am?" card and soon after, a manager came over and pretty much told the bouncers to let it slide unless he got overly belligerent. Anyway later that night, Ralph found himself in one of those real pathetic situations where he overextended himself with the lapdances and the stripper had to walk with him to the ATM and hover over him while he took out the cash. Evidently he was insisting that he only got like four dances and the stripper said he got six. So eventually he took out $100, flung it in the stripper's general direction and said, "listen sweetheart, I'm used to dealing with dames four times your age and I aint getting into it with you. You can take it or leave it" and then he blew a cloud of smoke from his cigar right in her face. It's funny too because he sounded like a guy straight out of an old movie from the 40's or something. Anyway fortunately his buddies grabbed him before there was much of an altercation with the bouncers but they walked him out right then and there. I had the privilege of talking with him outside after the incident- I actually bought him a hot dog from one of the vendors outside after one of his buddies bummed me a Players. Ralph was wasted and all disheveled, untucked, etc. (he'd been drinking Scotch all night long) but he talked about how much he loved the Bills and he thanked me for being a fan and supporting the team. The guys turned out to be his tennis buddies- they were a riot and said that they'd been frequenting strip clubs with Ralph for 40 years. Anyway he passed away shortly after that and I never got a chance to meet him again. I'll never forget that night.

Not sure about that. We don't know that she has experienced his dick game. We just know that she is satisfied with her current dick game situation. And I hate that she thinks she's so cute and witty for calling him out and doesn't know the difference between "who's" and "whose."

Yup. Good for him for trying. She's a joke.