metzelaars_lives

Oh here we go. My favorite EJ excuse: other quarterbacks have had bad games too. So because Joe Montana had a bad game in 1986 does that mean you think Jamarcus Russell has a better chance of staging an improbable comeback? And fellas, I am still waiting for someone to come out and say that they believe EJ Manuel has a better than 50% chance to be the Bills' clear cut opening day starter in 2017. Because if no one will say that, then I'm not sure anyone even disagrees with me because all I've said is that I don't think he does. I don't hate him, I don't root against him, I don't think he's a bust and I don't even think it's inconceivable he wins the job this year.

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy? Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards. And secondly, it became apparent through four games that the Bills had an elite defense- one good enough to carry the team to the playoffs if they could only get competent QB play. And I guess above all else, I just want to see the Bills make the freaking playoffs. And lastly, I agree that Matt Cassel doesn't get me excited but I'm also smart enough to realize that there is an extremely good chance he will end up giving the Bills the best chance to win this season. While Manuel played pretty decent against Chicago and Miami last year, he wasn't very exciting in those games either. The Bills NEED game manager play. If they get better than that, great, but I'm not banking on it from any of these three guys. I understand that the unknown comes with a bit of "excitement" but sucking is not exciting either.

Nope, no he isn't. I've never said that either. All I've said is that if you asked me right now, I think the chances of him developing into a franchise QB are less than 50%. I have used my barometer that he is the clear cut starter opening day 2017. I am still waiting for someone to tell me that they believe his odds of that are greater than 50%. Somehow I became the "EJ sucks" poster boy but I'm not even sure there are many people who even disagree with me. The crux of the problem is that no one reads what I actually write. Did you know that you are very frustrating to correspond with? You have to start reading peoples' entire posts. Literally well more than half of the things you write are responding to things that you are taking out of context. I am aware that EJ Manuel has won football games. If you would've posted the rest of what I wrote, it would've made way more sense. I have stated numerous times that the Atlanta game was one of EJ's best as a pro. My issue is not with the 2013 season. It's primarily with the 2014 offseason, which NOBODY EVER TALKS ABOUT! Dude every coach in the league benches EJ after that Houston game. Nobody likes Doug Marrone, we get it. But the whole blaming him for everything thing has now officially gone one step too far.

For me it would take him winning a football game. That was a team win if there ever was one. He played the role of game manager effectively in that game. That is not excelling. You know how sometimes in hockey a team gets outshot 45-20 but the goalie stands on his head and they steal one 2-1? That is excelling. The closest he came to what I would call winning them a football game was the Carolina game in 2013.

I'd have to go back and check but after the successive San Diego and Houston games you were preaching patience with EJ and were disappointed when they made the switch to Orton? What about after Orton looked pretty good his first four games and went 3-1? So obviously you were much more concerned with EJ's development last year than trying to make the playoffs? See that's where you're going to have a tough time explaining something like that to, say Mario Williams for instance. Also what if he played just as poorly against Detroit (a third straight single digit QBR performance)? After paying Orton $5 million? With that defense they had/have? No way man. I mean I guess in hindsight I wish they let EJ play all season but at that point last year, I just wanted to make the freaking playoffs. So question for you- he's still only played 14 games- the same number he had after the Houston game last year, right? So I'm assuming you'd give him a similar leash this year? Even if they're losing close games where he absolutely sucks but the defense is keeping them in it?

Great question. I would've benched him in the second half of the Houston game so not too far off there. And then toward the end of the year there were a few times where Orton was so bad that I thought they should've put EJ back in. I remember thinking it in the Packers game and then the Raiders game. And then not playing him for the entire Patriots game was a joke. Marrone was clearly obsessed with finishing 9-7 to bolster his marketability. You? I would add too that a lot of people on here like to pile on Marrone and say that he should have let EJ ride it out. When they made the switch to Orton after the Houston game was there one person on here that had an issue with it? And then after Orton played pretty damn good (all things considered) against Detroit and then very solid against New England, Minnesota and the Jets to get them to 5-3- by that point no one was talking about Manuel anymore. And one thing I find amusing is when people act like the JJ Watt INT was the only thing he did wrong in that game. As I've stated time and again, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times in that game and had 3 receptions for 17 yards. He excelled on first downs for the first two games? I just think that's a classic example of cherry picking a stat. I haven't listened yet but if it correlates to that silly article then I probably won't.

2013? Did not suck. I mean he sucked in a handful of games but overall, decent enough rookie campaign. Certainly willing to give him more time. 2014? Completely sucked. Sucked in OTA's, sucked in every last practice, sucked in the preseason, game managed decently in two games and then freaking SUCKED. If you look up the word "regression" in the dictionary you would see EJ Manuel's 2014 calendar year. Have guys bounced back after poor second seasons? Sure. That's why I haven't labeled him a bust. I've only said that I find it less than likely that he turns it around. But I encourage people to keep telling me that I am rooting against him, calling him a bust, et al.

No, you see HE could change my mind. If he performs well, that will change my mind. Your statistics about the Bills running a lot on first down in September of 2013 have not changed my mind that I think he PROBABLY WON'T become a franchise QB. Does that make sense at all? And please find one post where I have ever used the word "bust" in the same sentence as EJ Manuel (besides this one). Spoiler alert: I haven't.

I couldn't be any more sincere when I say that I have no idea what you're talking about. YOU: Bills were 2nd in the NFL in PPG with 22 after 4 weeks in 2013. ME: No, that's impossible. YOU: Here is a link to an article in which Chris Brown asks whether or not the Bills can average 24 points a game prior to the 2013 season. I mean, dude, what are we talking about here? Can we please just let it play out? You aren't going to prove to me that EJ Manuel will probably develop into a franchise QB and I'm not going to prove to you the contrary. So can we say, hey man, let's drink a cold beer, let this thing play out and say, "go bills?" Like, please? As it freaking should! So some podcast with some kid talking about the Bills' propensity to run on first down should change my mind? Yes, for once we agree! It would take EJ Manuel playing well, holding down the starting job and winning actual regular season games to sway me! Thank you, we agree! So if EJ performs poorly again this year but they're running a lot on first down are you going to continue this nonsensical defense? The fan support thing is ridiculous. Bills are top 3. Probably third behind Green Bay and Kansas City, who was ranked 27th in that ridiculous study. So?

Dude there is absolutely no way that 22 PPG was 2nd in the NFL after any weeks. That's literally below average. So in other words, the .1% part was actually right. Don't you see that none of this matters? In two weeks is what matters. The SECOND he takes the field, you can flush all these laughably contrived and ERRONEOUS statistics of yours down the proverbial toilet. It's almost here folks. Can we just wait and see what happens!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! You are simply wasting your time- "(in whiny baby voice) Well Marrone..." It doesn't matter! If he's good, he's good, if he's not, he's not. And then what Marrone did on first downs in September of 2013 or whatever the hell you're talking about can be laid to rest 4-EVER!!!

I have not listened to this yet but are you suggesting that after listening, I will be like, "s**t I was wrong all along, EJ Manuel is definitely going to be the Bills' starting QB week 1 2017?" I am the "hater" and the party pooper here yet I am merely saying, let's just see what happens. Why are so many of you in a tizzy to prove that EJ Manuel has already proven that he is going to be a franchise QB. We will all know the answer to this question sooner than later. You know how at the end of PCU, Jeremy Piven says "we're not gonna protest?" Can we all just say, "let's just let this thing play out?" And it was before my time on TBD but I can't imagine there weren't similar conversations on here regarding JP Losman and Trent Edwards, right? Were the guys who were saying, "I don't know guys, I'm not so sure it's happening for this Edwards guy" cast aside as "haters" and such then too? Did you apologize to them when JP Losman retired? How does this work going forward? So literally 99% of the non-Bills fans in the United States (I'm sure- certainly every credible analyst) think there is a less than 50% chance that EJ Manuel develops into am legitimate starting QB in this league and on this website, it's like me and two other guys and we're the a**holes. Got it. I want someone to speak up right now and say, "I think there is a better than 50% chance that Edward Joseph Manuel (or whatever his name is) is the Bills starting QB week 1 2017." I dare you. One of you say it.

Dude I swear to God I'm trying to be cool about this. So on a website dedicated to Buffalo Bills football you are telling me that it's inappropriate to predict whether or not one of our quarterbacks will develop into a franchise QB after two years in the league? Seriously? And if it doesn't matter what Adam Schefter thinks then pick another NFL analyst. He agrees with me too.

Someone else came up with "dreamer" a while back and I thought it was kinda funny. Oh well. It was purely in retaliation for constantly being called a "hater" for thinking there is less than a 50% chance that EJ develops into a franchise QB. Is that so radical a stance? If you polled all the guys on NFL Network, ESPN and the Adam Schefters of the world, they would all agree with me. Every last one of them. I'm still trying to figure out what I've said that would lead anyone to believe that I am rooting against him.

Did you read my entire post? I went out of my way to make it clear that I am not on an anti-EJ crusade. Please tell me one thing I wrote that you take issue with. I even conceded that if you are arguing that the jury is still out, you win. Seriously, I'm trying to meet in the middle on this one. What is your contention? That he has been amazing so far? Seriously man. I respect you as a poster too. So every time I'm objectively skeptical about a guy, I'm rooting against them? So if I see a band that sucks tonight, I'm not allowed to say they're not that good or else I'm rooting for them to suck? I swear to God on everything I hold sacred that I am rooting for EJ Manuel to succeed. I promise.

Marrone sucked as a coach EJ has sucked as a QB Marrone sucked as a coach does not = EJ will be magically become good as a QB If Marrone were Ryan Leaf's coach, Ryan Leaf would have still sucked as a QB after Marrone left We'll see people. If you want to argue that we don't know what we have in him, then sure, fine. You win. But don't insult my intelligence and tell me I'm supposed to be optimistic based on what I've seen so far. He has had a few moments but who hasn't in 14 games. The QB's that the EJ dreamers continuously mock have had their moments too- Losman, Edwards, Cassel, Geno Smith, you name em. Kelly Holcomb is the equivalent of a court jester on this website (and I'm not saying he shouldn't be) but he was better in his one season as a Bill than EJ Manuel has been so far. I could go on and on. Again, can't wait. I promise I will not be a Bill in NYC and needlessly criticize the guy if he actually performs well (see Bill's takes on Gilmore). Nothing would make me happier than to see the kid succeed and eat crow on this one. I live in freaking Denver and I'm going to three Bills home games this year. Do you think I want to fly all the way home to root against EJ Manuel?

What? No he didn't. I can't wait for this to be settled once and for all. But if this article helps the EJ dreamers sleep better then I guess enjoy basking in your 'blame it on Marrone' glory for a few days.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not on a crusade to tell anyone how terrible EJ is. I have only maintained that I am highly skeptical that he develops into a franchise qb, that's all. Most sound football minds would and do agree with me. I hope he does though, obviously. As others have stated, this conversation has grown tired and it's time to stop talking about it and see what the guy actually does on the field the last week in July on.

So now that we're seemingly at the end of this thing here, do you feel any differently about the name? If you continue to take the 'private ownership/trademark supersedes anyone's feelings' stance, that's fine. That being said, I hope you can see how maybe a Native American might take offense to the name.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote. I think we're getting closer here. 125 years ago being a long time however, is extremely relative. My great grandmother, whom I knew well, was born in 1902. That's 12 years after Wounded Knee. Not that long ago. If you think about the fact that Native Americans were thriving in North America for a minimum (some estimates are much higher) of 15,000 years until 125 years ago by which point they had been summarily and methodically murdered, driven off of their lands and reduced to a hapless, tired and beaten down people with no identity whatsoever, in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that long ago. And if you think those words are meant to embellish, consider the plains Indians, whose sustenance was based almost entirely on the buffalo for as long as they lived here. They would seek visions in sacred mountains and perform countless rituals that were extremely important to them- like way more than the NFL is to us. Now they were confined to "swaths" of land (as I believed you called them) where they were forced to sit in American schools, learn about Christianity, wear European/American clothes and farm (which they hated). The buffalo was long gone but now they had alcohol! Yay! You see, their bodies had never ingested alcohol before and thus, did not have the ability to process it and temper their use of it the way Europeans did/do. Have you ever been to a dilapidated reservation and seen a drunken Native American with a nose twice the size of Joe Torre's who doesn't know if it's 9 in the morning or 9 at night (I was asked that very question one time)? You should go sometime man! You can see the direct effects of what we did not that long ago and it's f***ing sad as hell. To think that same guy might've been waking up in a teepee next to a cool mountain stream in autumn and going on an early morning buffalo hunt with his pals and then performing a celebratory dance that night while feasting on buffalo- the same buffalo that our ancestors would shoot from moving trains for sport and leave to rot on the prairies while the remaining Native Americans were sitting on their pathetic reservations a few miles away... I could go on and on. Oh yeah and as the elders watched their land sadly industrialized in the name of the almighty dollar while they watched on as helpless bystanders, a new game was invented. And one of the teams decided to name themselves after a slang term used to call the Native Americans as they were being driven from their land. How proud they must have been. After a couple hundred more years perhaps I would be more inclined to tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

You certainly have not come off as very sympathetic about the treatment of Native Americans, likening it to Irish Americans having difficulty getting jobs when they first came over. Have you read much about Wounded Knee? That was in 1890. Not that long ago. Are whites living today responsible for Wounded Knee? No. But that doesn't change how they might feel about the name today. Let's drop the word oppression here because it appears to be a tad ambiguous in this conversation. I consider it a sign of disrespect. To what extent is somewhat debatable. But clearly enough of them feel disrespected that it has become an issue. Is that fair?

What is unclear?

They all left. Would it be appropriate if there was a German soccer team called the Jews and they had a very proud looking Jewish man as their mascot and the owner's original intent was to pay homage to the Jews? Again, "Jew" isn't even a slur so "Redskin" is actually worse in this case.

Probably the very late 1800's. When was the last Chinese American or Irish American killed in an aggressive American military event? Over 10 million Indians were killed in North America alone by the US Military and settlers during manifest destiny. How many Irish Americans and Chinese Americans have been killed by organized US Military activities since, let's say the settlement of Jamestown in 1607?

Oppressed? Probably not. Forgotten about and cast aside? Obviously. Are blacks oppressed in the United States in 2015? Let's say for the sake of argument that they're not. Although they probably are to a certain extent and if they are, believe me, the Native Americans have a rougher go of it than anyone. But we can probably agree that blacks are not as oppressed in the United States in 2015 as they were in 1965. Does that mean that calling a baseball team the Mississippi Negroes would be more appropriate now than in 1965 because they're less oppressed? Or have you abandoned the name issue altogether and we're strictly talking about whether or not they are oppressed today? And ya know what- how preposterous is it to imagine a baseball team called the Mississippi Negroes in 2015, right? That's not even a slur! They are negroes! It's just a dated name that people decided was better not used. Redskin is a slur. Maybe not intended that way by everyone- probably not even the people who named the team. But it's certainly interpreted that way by many. The problem is that the Native Americans were so obliterated and left for dead as a people that they've never really had any support or advocacy or a voice the way, say blacks have. So being discriminated against when looking for work or even being placed in internment camps as the Japanese were during WWII is your equivalent of being virtually wiped off the face of the earth as a people in an act of genocide. We didn't show up on Plymouth Rock to a land inhabited by a bunch of Irish and Chinese guys you realize.

Wow. I actually agree with you on this one. It was really generous of us to give the Native Americans so much of our land. And they have really cashed in on our military protection with all those attacks on their reservations. Yes FireChan, the US Military has been awfully kind to those Native Americans over the years.