metzelaars_lives

See I like that we're being somewhat civil here. That being said, I'm not sure you are interpreting the data from this poll the way most are. You asked if EJ can be the starter. Well sure he can. He started the games against San Diego and Houston last year. If you asked if Matt Cassel can be the starter for the Bills, even more people would say yes. Geno Smith can be the starter for the Jets. Josh McCown can be the starter for the Browns. Need I go on? It is not necessarily a vote of confidence or "faith" as you call it. I think people are taking this poll more literally than you realize. And also, if you don't think Bradford or Foles are an upgrade over EJ- well, let's just leave it at that. I really don't see any sense in debating that one.

I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make. I think he will end up starting a game or two by default/injury/etc. I don't think 80% of the people on here believe he will start 16 games, show marked improvement, lead this team to the playoffs and be the clear cut guy going forward. And if they do, that's great. I happen to disagree. I have stated numerous times that I still believe the Bills will make a splash for a real starter (Bradford, Foles type) and if they don't and there is an honest competition between Cassel and Manuel, I think Cassel will win the job outright. If Locker or Petty is added to the mix, I think either of them could very well win it too. I don't think Cassel is good enough either though. I am still holding out hope that we land Bradford or Foles. We shall see.

It is the worst. As dopey as it is to do it in a second Josh McCown thread (the OP doesn't realize a nearly identical thread already exists), it annoys me even more in a thread that doesn't warrant it like this one. OK so you're not interested in a Fred Jackson-Derek Jeter comparison. Neither am I. Then read something else or go to a different website. I should just let it go but it almost fascinates me how much it annoys me that people who write "IN" think they're cool, clever, getting one over on someone, etc. It bothers me to an unreasonable extent.

Isn't it your new crusade to weed out the trolls?

Lumping EJ Manuel with the rest of the QB's on that list is highly insulting to every last one of them. First of all, THEY'VE WON A SUPER BOWL. Until he shows us something- anything- he is a lot closer to the Ryan Leafs, Jamarcus Russells, Todd Blackledges, Babe Laufenbergs, Dave Archers, Akili Smiths, Todd Collins, Chuck Longs, Eric Hipples, Randy Wrights, et al of the world than he ever will be to any QB on that list. And I could tell you some good things about every single one of those QB's. For one, take Joe Flacco off of that list immediately. Jeff Hostetler signed a big contract with the Raiders after that Super Bowl and put up some big time numbers there. The one thing that all of those QB's have in common is that they were good enough for their organizations to say, yeah this is our guy. This is a starting QB in this league. Manuel has yet to earn even that distinction. He was our starter each of the last two years by absolute 100% unadulterated default. Let's see what he brings with him to camp this year. This is his last chance.

Bruce Smith up in yo face with another sack You can't run the ball, your whole game plan's whack -verse from a Bills rap I made up in middle school

I defended Tim Graham in another thread earlier but I think I take it back. There is absolutely no way that Lee Smith signs any sort of contract that could in any universe be considered "big" by NFL standards.

Well done.

Who did write that? That was one of the dumbest things I've ever read on here. And also, Michael Crabtree is a fine WR but that would be the epitome of a luxury signing. I happen to think that Hogan is a fine #3 as well. We are going to need safety help if Searcy does in fact sign elsewhere.

Why is that funny? It would be funny if we had a better quarterback than Fitzpatrick.

Agreed on all accounts. If the Bills let go of Fred Jackson and then they made the playoffs and he wasn't around to be a part of it, that would be a travesty. Granted, Fred Jackson is a multi-millionaire and there are kids in this world with nothing to eat but in the realm of American professional sports, it would be a tragedy.

Give me a break. Another completely contrived post grasping at straws to try and throw a local media member under the bus. I am not a big Tim Graham fan either but to say he is deriving pleasure from the possibility of Fred Jackson getting cut? Are you kidding me?

No, again, I said the Bills defense was elite, which they clearly are. I didn't even distinguish you from any other poster on here until you BWAHAHAHAHAHA'd me for saying it. No one had ever BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA'd me before- neither in real life nor on this website. Anyway the Bills have been top ten in total defense two straight years and top two in sacks over each of those years. This year they were fourth in yards allowed and points allowed and way up there in every category imaginable including 3rd down % allowed, turnovers, et al. They will be a top five defense again this year, mark my words. So I was right about that. I will be right about EJ Manuel not developing into a legitimate starting QB. You have stated that he will in fact be the Bills starting QB on opening day three years from now. I am telling you right now that it will be clear by season's end that he is not fit to be a starting QB anymore in this league. "Can he be a starter for the Bills?" Sure. I would vote yes. He'll probably start a game this year for the Bills. But how can you sit here and tell me that you are not ready to call the Bills' defense elite yet you are optimistic about EJ Manuel's chances? Can you see how people might question your football acumen? Not to mention your sentence structure, your excessive use of emoticons, your tendency to continue to go on defensive/offensive tirades after you have been backed into a corner and it is apparent you no longer even know what you're arguing about. Yesterday you started a thread telling everyone Kirk Cousins was about to get cut and attached a link to an article about how the Redskins were keeping Kirk Cousins. I could go on but I digress. And I'm not "trolling" you (I see that you have moved on from calling everyone "haters" and now refer to anyone who ever disagrees with you as "trolls"). I couldn't be any more sincere. How bout this- let's just be friends.

You didn't give the bills defense the benefit of the doubt earlier this season. In fact the first time I had the pleasure of making your acquaintance on here I alluded to the bills defense as being elite through 5-6 games or so and your response was, and I'm not paraphrasing here, "bills? Elite defense? BWAHAHAHAHA!" And then you went on a crusade much like this one, pointing to the defensive stats on espn but you kept failing to adjust the numbers to reflect yards per game (several teams had already had their bye so had given up fewer total yards than the bills). Everyone kept trying to explain this to you but you simply could not understand what everyone was trying to tell you. So that is the story of when I first became aware of bills fan 4 ever. Needless to say I've been a fan of his ever since- dare I say a fan 4 ever.

Yeah I apologize for my tone in some of those posts from yesterday. I don't think most of us are that far off from one another. I would disagree with you that "it's impossible to tell right now" though. We have been given some clues to work with so far. Just like Seattle fans had some clues to work with after Russell Wilson was in the league for two years. It was very possible to tell whether or not he was going to be a franchise guy after two years. Ultimately I agree with you though, the jury is till out but I just think some of us think the odds are much slimmer than others. That's all. And if he comes to camp and looks anything like he did last year and then sucks again in preseason, some of you are going to have to start asking yourselves, OK when have we seen enough. And some posters have responded by saying that they want a whole nother season sink or swim until they're willing to say they've seen enough. That's their opinion but unfortunately for Manuel, I don't think the coaching staff is willing to give him that much of a leash.

Yeah I was a little fired up. If you would like to read a friendlier and more intelligent EJ debate instead, read the "Joe B QB take" thread. A bunch of us had a great back and forth last night for a while. Here is what I said in that thread regarding this whole debate: The thing is that I totally respect everything you're saying. Stranger things have happened than EJ Manuel developing into a franchise QB. I think the problem with a lot of the dialogue on here the last few days is that the EJ supporters (I support the guy too by the way- I'm a Bills fan, I just want good QB play, I don't care who it's from) are very intolerant of the people who think (as I do) that the chances of him becoming that guy are very slim. They insist "there's simply no way of knowing yet" and "he's only played 14 games." Some think there is no chance at all of him succeeding. I respect that opinion too. What I don't respect is when certain posters mock other QB's in the league who have proven more than Manuel, yet are ardent Manuel defenders. I also said this: I thought Manuel should've played against New England too. Clearly Marrone was obsessed with getting to 9-7 because he knew he was going to quit and he thought the winning record would make him more marketable. I think my biggest issue here is that I haven't been burying Manuel since he was drafted. I loved the pick and I thought for sure he was gonna be our guy after the Carolina game. I just get pissed when people tell me I'm not allowed to take what I saw all last camp, all last preseason, the San Diego and Houston games and formulate the opinion that I think the chances of him succeeding at this point are very slim.

Alfred and D-Mac. Alfred Williams used to play for the Broncos and Darren McKee actually interned for the Bills 20 years ago. They do the black guy/white guy routine. They are on 104.3 The Fan. Alfred Williams is a nice guy but talks out of his ass all the time. Darren McKee is from Boston and is so incredibly obnoxious and he is such a dork. They are unbearable. Yesterday, they were going through the Broncos opponents next year, debating which games are wins and losses. I can tell you that the level of dialogue on Schopp and Bulldog's show is geared toward a smarter listener than the show here in Denver. Every time I listen to them in my truck, I end up yelling "how do you not know that!?!" Example, they'll be talking and one of them will say that Wes Welker won Super Bowls in New England. And then the other one will say, "wait did he?" And then they'll agree that he did and move on. That happened. At least Schopp and the Bulldog will look something up if they're not sure about it. I get how Schopp's condescending tone can sometimes be off putting but overall it's not that bad of a show. I'm telling you, when guys have nothing to talk about except sports for four hours straight and you are in a two sport town, it is not an easy job. So if they sometimes talk about pop culture for a few minutes, that's fine. All the successful ones do that now too. I respect everything you said here. Although I never said I want him to be cut if he performs poorly in camp. I'm just preparing people to understand that it is a real possibility. But yeah, if he is abysmal in camp and the preseason again, I can't say that it would be outrageous for them to cut him outright. I would support it. I'm not rooting for it though.

Of course! I already stated in this thread that if he is neck and neck with anyone I'm ok with the tie going to Manuel. And my opinion is that there is not one person on this website that is rooting against EJ and would not want him to play if he proved to be their best option after a real qb competition. Anyone who actually feels that way is simply not a bills fan.

The thing is that I totally respect everything you're saying. Stranger things have happened than EJ Manuel developing into a franchise QB. I think the problem with a lot of the dialogue on here the last few days is that the EJ supporters (I support the guy too by the way- I'm a Bills fan, I just want good QB play, I don't care who it's from) are very intolerant of the people who think (as I do) that the chances of him becoming that guy are very slim. They insist "there's simply no way of knowing yet" and "he's only played 14 games." Some think there is no chance at all of him succeeding. I respect that opinion too. What I don't respect is when certain posters mock other QB's in the league who have proven more than Manuel, yet are ardent Manuel defenders.

You seem like a logical poster but you are giving other posters around here WAY too much credit.

People all over this website do it every single day. They like to point to the fact that he is now the offensive line coach for Jacksonville if you haven't heard that one yet.

I actually agree with this. People forget but in 2013 Thad Lewis played VERY WELL for a backup QB. In fact, going into last season (or offseason I guess), the sentiment was that the Bills were set at backup QB. He definitely did regress. It is nice to have back and forth dialogue without it getting hostile and having to respond to whacko posts, misstatements, incorrect stats, horrendous grammar, childish emoticons, not even knowing what you're arguing about, etc.

Yeah you're right. Orton did regress. And he did look sharp against Detroit and the first New England game. I mean, with respect to both Manuel and Orton, in fairness to Marrone for a second, they were both regularly missing guys that were wide open and making bad throws. I guess we'll find out soon enough but I'm inclined to think that EJ is gonna look the same. Not to mention, there's gonna be infinitely more pressure on him to perform than there was in either of his first two seasons. He is absolutely playing for a roster spot, which he has never had to do before.

Yeah but no one ever mentions that Thad Lewis and EJ Manuel (at times) both looked decent in 2013 and Doug Marrone and Hackett were the coaches that year too. They did both regress. It's not the first time in the history of the NFL that a QB regressed. And Tuel does not even count in this conversation.