thewildrabbit

Not like I haven't addressed this issue about Williams about 100 times already, and even as far back as right after he was signed by the team. As most know the O line is a passion of mine, and i follow every move on the subject fairly closely. Chris Williams had to be one of the absolute worst players obtained in free agency by Doug Whaley by far, as was Greg Legursky the previous year. Both players graded as the very worst players on their respective teams, Rams-Steelers, and not just the worst players on their team. They both graded as two of the very worst players in the NFL. The thing is Williams graded at St Louis with a (-21.8), and even Legursky never graded that poorly. Under Buddy Nix who signed FA RT Cornell Green to a 3 mill per deal, as one of his first acquisitions in 2010 free agency, and he was benched and cut off the team by week 6 of that year. Buddy Nix then scrambled, and searched the waiver wire and was able to find suitable band-aid players for the line in RT Pears & RG Urbik. Then when Whaley took over in 2013 his replacement of LG Andy Levitre was Colin Brown, and was another player who was benched and cut by week 6 of last year. Colin Brown graded as the worst player in the NFL and his grade was (-30.1) Browns backup at OG in David Snow came into the game for one series when Urbik went out with an injury, and immediately allowed a sack, and numerous hits-pressures. He was let go along with Brown, and the guy signed to be the backup center in Legursky was now the starting LG. We know that Legursky graded poorly after he was signed by the Bills, and then went on to solidify that poor grade by being the worst player on that line in 2013. Whaley doesn't go dumpster diving for any other area of the team, and I'm desperately trying to understand the concept of forcing rookie QB's behind a line with such bad players on it. If not having a veteran QB on the roster, or not having a QB coach for three rookie QB's was a "my bad"!. I'd have to think signing such scrubs for the O line, and ruining one, and possibly ruining two seasons has to be a much worse then just "my bad". Yea, i think the OG position is going to continue to haunt this team the rest of the year. Whaley had a several ways to bring in players for the O line in free agency, the draft, and undrafted free agents. My beef is he is able to find excellent players for every other area of the team, and tries to scrape the bottom of other teams garbage cans for the O line. I just wanted to understand the thinking behind their process. But of course you feel the need to jump up and defend the GM, as he had no other alternatives to do other then what he did. http://www.cbssports...s/free-agents/g

Great stuff Kelly, thanks for sharing. No queries about what has happened the last two years with the OG position? I would have loved to inquire about that to find out what happened with about the only real huge weakness on the team. Is it him, or is he listening to Buddy Nix on this issue, or is it Marrone, Hackett, the O line coach? Or is this the analytic department at work? I love what Whaley has done in every area of the team except that one position. Finding Kiko, Carpenter, Orton, Spikes, and all the defensive players, a better punter. Henderson at RT. I just don't get the thinking with Chris Williams, Pears.

The thing is Gailey knew how to setup an offense that would maximize his players strengths vs their weakness. I think he realized that if he tried to run the ball all the time he would have been stuffed a lot because of the poor players on that line, and he even had Levitre. Yea, I admit i hated Gailey because he thought Fitz was Tom Brady, and kept calling for 40 passes a game instead of even trying to setup a dominate pound the rock offense. Gailey kept trying to win with smoke & mirrors because all he had in his passing offense when he went with 4-5 WR sets was WR Stevie Johnson. The rest of the WR's were all scrubs and now gone from the roster. He realized the limitations of his O line, and QB, receivers and did the best he could with what he had. I didn't like Gailey the head coach trying to run the entire team and offense at the same time, and I currently think he is one of those guys better suited to just being an OC, running the offense, and calling offensive plays. Alas, it might even be too late for Gailey to help with the current state of the OG's & RB's. I just gotta wonder what Gailey could do with a QB like Orton who is far better then Fitz in mid to deep accuracy, and with a legit WR corp with a budding superstar WR in Sammy.

I agree. Last game just highlights how ineffective the offense is at times. From what I see there is no real innovation in the offense in any aspect. Just the same old run plays up the middle that don't work to make a first down, and the run blocking is so ineffective its past alarming. The current O line can't even finish their primary block, much less second level or further down field blocks. The entire offense, and the crap O line, crap run blocking all falls offensive coordinator. Its a darn shame the offense is so bad because the defense is a top 10 unit this year. Yea, fire Hackett, and hire Gailey.

What we miss is a competent game planner, play caller. The Bill even with CJ & Fredex still ran the ball up the middle 68% of the time, and last year it was 72%. The play calling is mundane, predictable, and ineffective, and it has been since week two! If not for Orton who selecting the plays he wants to run in the film room, sets the line protections, reads the defense, and changes the called play if need be. Like I said, if not for Kyle Orton this team would be in serious trouble on offense.

This team and its stupidity with the OG position never ceases to amaze me. This is a team that either has great difficulty in evaluating offensive guard talent, or simply thinks the position doesn't require good talent. the coaches seem to think that because they had the #2 rushing team last year that everything was just fine. Imagine a core of front office people that were determined to think that the DT position was an area that only required mediocre talent to get by with, and then couldn't figure out why they have great difficulty in stopping the up the middle running against them, or why they can't get to the QB. They seem to think that anyone with the proper massive predetermined weight, and height will suffice in filling that position. Neither the current coaches nor the the GM understands the concept of having elite players on the offensive line, or they would have drafted earlier then the second round the last few years. You would think that when the team lost Center Eric Wood to the IR after week 9, and then watching the team go from a 5-2 start to a collapse into a losing 6-10 season that they would put more importance on having a competent backup center. The watching what how the team performed in pass protection after letting LG Andy Levitre walk. That after they let Levitre leave at the end of 2012 they had great difficulty keeping the rookie QB's protected, and running the ball to control the clock that they would understand the significance of quality talent at the guard position. First off the very last thing you want in a OG is bloated warthog who can't get out of his own way, or not be able to get low enough to get under the pad level of the DT's.(Like most of the current players in the line). You want a OG to be athletic, tough and physical. Top guards need to get off the line explosively to a make a primary block and then be able to move up field to make second block on a LBer or even further down field. From what I see the current Bills OG have great difficulty in making an effective primary block, much less getting to the second, or third level. Personally I prefer O linemen that are all athletic, tough, physical, and have a nasty streak in them. To me bigger is not always better, and the current regime seems to go with that bigger is better philosophy. EDIT: looking at the stats from Football outsiders the Bills are currently 28th in run blocking, and 30th in getting to that second level. (what we already knew) Plus they are still trying to run the ball up the middle 68% of the time. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

START QTR POSS. YARD PLAYS YARDS RESULT 13:22 1 03:45 BUF 36 7 64 Touchdown 08:33 1 01:21 NYJ 48 3 -1 Punt 06:13 1 01:19 50 3 5 Punt 04:40 1 00:04 NYJ 1 1 1 Touchdown 14:22 2 02:32 BUF 8 5 92 Touchdown 10:29 2 00:56 BUF 37 3 4 Punt 07:34 2 01:18 NYJ 31 4 -4 Field Goal 01:50 2 01:17 BUF 20 3 -4 Punt 15:00 3 02:36 BUF 20 3 9 Punt 10:10 3 01:39 NYJ 27 4 9 Field Goal 07:12 3 02:02 NYJ 44 3 3 Punt 02:33 3 01:22 NYJ 10 4 -1 Field Goal 00:16 3 01:05 NYJ 14 3 14 Touchdown 12:07 4 02:21 BUF 29 4 71 Touchdown 04:06 4 04:06 BUF 5 6 24 End of Game The Bolded, and underlined show the Bills got the ball in Jets territory 7 times, and managed 23 points. Just look at the field position the Bills were given all game. One of those TD's was an int return to the Jets one yard line. They had starts at the Jets 48, punt. Jets one, TD. Jets 31, FG. Jets 27, FG. Jets 44, punt. Jets 10 FG. Jets 14 TD. Without those 6 turnover I gotta wonder what the score would have been. Perhaps a loss 23-20? Then look at the yards in the drives. 64 -1, 5, 1, 92, 4, -4, -4, 9, 9, 3, -1, 14, 71. Talk about pathetic! The Bills had 4 series where they lost yardage! So, out of 13 drive starts the Bills had only three successful long drives, and two that were actually big plays by Sammy in his 3 receptions for 157 yards, and a TD. Basically you could say the Bills offense laid a big turd in MetLife stadium, and it was the defense & defensive turnovers, long bombs from Orton to Sammy that won it http://espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=400554298

Big plays, both Spiller on IR, and Jackson out a few weeks will hamper that big play factor. Then you have to figure teams will try and double Sammy on the line, and roll coverage's his way. The biggest big play makers should start trending downward. Not even going to discuss how many sacks Orton has taken, and if he will survive the next 8 games. 6 out of the 8 teams they face in the second half of the season have winning records, and all are fighting for the playoffs. I don't see the next part of the season being a cakewalk. Then you have the snow and cold where its conducive to have a power run game that actually works. Chiefs 4-3 @ Miami 4-3 Jets 1-7 Cleveland 4-3 @ Denver 6-1 Green Bay 5-3 @Oakland 0-7 @ New England 6-2 The Bills defense may continue to have great luck with turnovers, and if the Bills offense continues to fail at making the most of those opportunities...Anyway, I doubt the bills will again face a QB that will throw pick after pick like Geno did, OK maybe Oakland. Hackett with his simplistic, predictable run, run, pass which equates to decent run up the middle, run up the middle for no gain or negative yards, pass on third and long isn't the recipe for success. The way I look at things the season will depend more on Kyle Orton making plays with his own ingenuity then the way Hackett runs the offense.

Hackett is good alright, good for nothing! Where are the QB's he was tutoring last season, Tuel on PS, EJ on the bench, and the starter for 5 games in Thad Lewis is off the team. Last season Hackett ran a hurry up and punt offense that was one of the worst in the league in getting first downs and sustaining drives. The team went 6-10, and because they led the NFL in rushes and was the #2 rushing team they said "we must be doing something right". Its not about the rushing yards, its about winning games! This year he doesn't even have run game he had last year and has been forcing his QB's to throw 40 times a game since the Charger game, and pretty sure Marrone reigned him in for the Jets game so Orton would live thru it. If not for Kyle Orton the team probably wouldn't be 5-3, and more like 3-5 looking at another lost season. So, does Hackett not get credit for what Orton is doing? Heck no he doesn't, as Orton takes charge, and lets him know what plays he wants to run. Its Orton out there calling line protections, reading the defense, changing the play if needed, and making plays work. If anything Hackett is learning from him. Hackett's only real job since Orton started as QB has been play calling, and getting the run game working. How has that been working? Predictable, repetitive run, run, pass, and its a credit to Orton that he can make plays on third down despite the mundane play calling. Orton is making the offense look better because of his experience. Yea, what he said! The Bills are 27th in total offense. HEY, The Bills offense is #2 in something !!!! Oh wait, its sacks allowed with 24.

Good thread, and agree with a lot Simon had to say. The Bills D is more physical, and a top ten ranked unit even without Kiko, and I attribute that to Schwartz. Now imagine that D with Kiko next year! I'm no longer sold on Marrone, Hackett as the O line is much worse then it has been in the past, and the run game has gotten worse. Far, far to many penalties, and stupid mistakes by players who should know better. If not for Kyle Orton I highly doubt this team is 5-3, more like 3-5 and another lost season. Then looking at the fact he has no top O line or run game to support him, and the play calling has been as bad as the run game. I gotta love Orton in what he has been able to accomplish almost on his own. If anything he is teaching Hackett how to do his job. The trade deadline came and went, and the Bills still have some starters in the lineup that should be backups or off the roster. So, while Whaley has been downright amazing in finding Orton, Carpenter, a decent punter, and some really good upgrades for the defense. WTH, is the story with the OG position, and why is the line the worst graded unit in the league when the HC is a past NFL O line player, past NFL O line coach, past NFL OC? Something is rotten. Should this team finish with a winning record, and even make the playoffs it will be because of Schwartz, Sammy, and Orton. Now tell me the team didn't need a veteran QB on the roster last year when they had 3 rookies QB's..these coaches...

That coaching staff will find a way to screw up whomever they draft, no worries. Mark Sanchez agrees.

I'm rooting for KC, Denver, and San Diego this week. I just can't help it. On another note, the Bills were 5-1 in 2008, and 5-2 in 2011, and both teams managed to collapse into losing seasons. 7-9 & 6-10. This years Bills 5-3 team still has some major flaws in the run game, and being graded as the worst O line in the NFL. Plus, the snow is coming, and they will need a running game. So, I'll reserve my thoughts on the playoffs until they find a way to upgrade those flaws.

I disagree as he played quite a few games at both LT & RT and from what I've read he graded in the positive which is something that can't be said for the current players on this years line. He was penciled in as the starting RT before his unknown injury, so they must have thought highly of him. I did say try the switch in practice against that Bills D. Also, we still don't know the situation with Hairston, and he has got to be an upgrade if 100% healthy. I suppose I keep posting on this in case someone in the know could let us know his status. The entire O line isn't playing up to its past ability (coaching?), and the better players are looking almost as bad as the scrubs. I don't think most realize just how bad the OG situation is, and its disrupting the entire line IMO. LT Cordy Glenn was particularly bad against the Vikings (-2.4) pass blocking. He allowed 4 pressures, 2 sacks, one hit, one hurry. Then against the Jets center Eric Wood graded (-5.9), and whats crazy is the rookie at RT is the only player that graded with an over positive that day. The Bills need to solidify that inside asap. The Bills need to take some drastic steps to improve both pass & run blocking as they head into the snowy, colder months that will require a run game that actually can get a first down

I agree, as lady luck often has a say in what happens with that oblong spheroid. Spiller on IR, and Fredex injured has to have an adverse effect. Then opposing teams will surely try and double Sammy off the line, and roll coverage's his way. Not only that its not every game that the Bills will face a QB as lame as Geno Smith who keeps throwing pick after pick. I believe Edwards Arm made a thread after the win against the Patriots in 2011, as Brady threw 4 INT's with the Bills win. EA talked about how a win like that with so many turnovers is unsustainable, he turned out to be correct. I see the same thing this year if the Bills get some things fixed. It is great to see that turnover differential so good, as it means the Bills are getting lots of takeaways, and not turning it over. This next half of the season is no cakewalk as six out of the next eight teams have winning records. Then once the snow hits they had better be able to run the ball, or its game over.

Great stuff, and really enjoyed all the pics n Links Thanks for posting. Its like the posters are getting better as the team gets better

Stop and think for a min, these coaches aren't going to suddenly stop calling run plays up the middle, and Pears is not going to improve that I can see. Things might get worse as the Bills play another tough defense in the #4 sacking team KC Chiefs. Don't let this move scare you, as the only real drawback is we don't know the story on Hairston. While I agree that LT is one of the most important positions on the line. I do recall Hairston playing that position rather effectively back in 2011 & 2012. Honestly it really wouldn't be that much of a downgrade if Hairston is 100%. Moving Glenn to LG would be a tremendous upgrade to that position and would not only help with the pass blocking, it would also help with the constant up the middle run game. It would also allow Orton to step up in the pocket. The quickest way to the QB is right up the middle, and Glenn-Wood-Urbik would really solidify that middle. The best thing that can happen is finding a way to get Pears off the field, JMO

What a lot of fans don't get is that its incredibly to almost impossibly difficult for even an elite QB like Brady-Brees- Manning to win games all on their own with a lousy run game, and behind a bad O line. Not to mention with the downright repetitive, predictable play calling. Yet, Orton did just that with comebacks against Detroit's #1 defense, and Minnesota #8 defense. Of course he is going to have great difficulty at times in carrying the entire offense all on his own. To me Orton has been downright amazing considering his supporting cast of **** coaches, worst O line in the league. Then to top it off he lost possibly the very best 3rd down blocking back, and top RB in Fred Jackson. To me Kyle Orton is playing at an elite level in a bad offense. To reiterate, my biggest concern is not signing him next season or after next season. Its him being able to survive this season.

After thinking about it a min I would try these moves in practice to see how they would work against the Bills D. Sit Pears on the bench where he should be forever, and ever. Then move Urbik back to RG, move Glenn to LG, and give Hairston a shot at LT. If I recall correctly Hairston graded in the green at LT in 7 games in 2011, and at LT / RT in 8 games in 2012. So the guy has some experience at both LT & RT. This move would solidify that middle, and make the pass rush come from the outside, and not the quicker way right up the middle. Perhaps we really don't know the whole story on Hairston because he should have been a better choice then Pears at RG

It has been very disappointing to me to see a young GM like Whaley not do a better job of upgrading the OG's, and he had two off seasons now. Looking over the history of this teams draft how many players become starter, and make an impact that were drafted after round four? Kyle Williams, and Stevie Johnson are about the only two that come to mind. So every time they draft a player past the third round its a big maybe. Finding elite talent past the third round is like finding hens teeth. I'm with you in hoping this team drafts 2 O line players, and I'll add a TE in with the first three picks. IMO The offensive line is just as important to fill with elite talent as any position on the team, and if you place a high value on the QB position Its even more important. On the contrary, Henderson was the ONLY Bills player to grade with an overall positive grade against that Jets D. He is a rookie, and a darn good one who should get better as he plays more. The two sub par OG's are so bad they are making that entire line look bad.

You are right, and its been clearly evident under Buddy Nix, and now Doug Whaley who is still listening to that old fool. Even as lame as Jauron was he still drafted a center with a #1 pick, and an OG with a #2 in an effort to bolster the middle of that line. Both Nix & Whaley think they can get by with band-aid players at OG. Why some think that its alright to spend an early first round pick on a D tackle, and yet don't think its important enough to spend an early pick to protect the most important player on the team is beyond me. Look at the crap players this regime tried to develop a rookie QB behind, and they still aren't breaking a sweat worrying about protecting Orton or they would have made some moves to make upgrades. I dunno, perhaps this is the lame brained analytic dept saying they can get by with sub par players at certain positions. Lets hope this moronic philosophy changes with that new adviser to new ownership.

and just because the run game didn't work against Buffalo with their better then average run defense doesn't mean it was wrong to keep trying. The Chargers setup their play action passing with so much running, and their run game actually works against other teams...that is, when they aren't scraping the waiver wire for players because their starters are out injured.

Precisely! Pears at RG is still a disaster, and Urbik is only a band-aid again. Why the Bills haven't tried to obtain better talent is beyond me. I hope Orton survives this craptastic, worst in the NFL O line.

There is a real reason as to why the Bills tried to run it more against a stout run defense, and ended the Cyril Richardson experiment at LG. It pains me to see the team going forward with the same players on the roster at OG. Lions 2 sacks, Patriots 5 sacks, Vikings 6 sacks, Jets 4 sacks= 17 sacks in 4 games. The very last thing the Bills want to see is Orton scrambling around to get yards. To put that into perspective, EJ was only sacked 6 times in his four starts Kyle Orton could be the savior we all hope he is, that is "IF" he survives behind that line. The Chiefs are currently the #4 sacking team in the NFL with 25 to Buffalo with 28.

You can't devalue EJ because he doesn't have the 10 years of NFL experience behind him. EJ is learning more from Orton on how to be a successful QB then he is from the coaches. I also could see Orton with the Bills for 3-5 years if they start putting a higher value on him by doing a better job of protecting him. It still boggles my mind in thinking that this team is still trying to get by with scrubs at OG, and the situation was even worse for EJ. When Bill Walsh stated it generally takes 3-4 years to develop a QB in the NFL. He was generalizing as sometimes it takes more then four years. Just look at guys like Fitz, Rich Gannon, and now Orton.

Both Jauron in 2008, and Gailey in 2011 started out like that and ended up with losing seasons 7-9 & 6-10. The difference is this years team has a top 10 defense, and a vet QB who can make things happen. I dunno perhaps the lack of a decent run game won't ruin the season. I just hope the lack of a decent O line doesn't either.