thewildrabbit

The Ravens didn't just win by running as they have also have a top defense. The point was the Ravens didn't need top QB play in that game and they found another way to dominate it, as they did it with both defense and running. The defense ranked #3 in both yards, pts in 2009 The same game plan isn't going to work every game after game. Yea Bilichick has proven he adapts better then most. Just look at the 4-1-6 defense they won SB 25 with, but his teams don't always win the SB every year. Edit: my bad, "In Super Bowl XXV, Belichick came up with an unorthodox but extremely effective plan to handle the Bills' no-huddle offense. The Giants primarily used two alignments -- one featuring five defensive backs and three linebackers, the other featuring six defensive backs and two linebackers. In both, they only had two defensive linemen because it allowed them to drop as many as nine defenders into coverage and left little room for Kelly to throw. Their defenders also made a point of being especially physical with Buffalo's receivers, hitting them as hard as possible as soon as they made a catch." http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story/09000d5d80631278/article/parcells-1990-coaching-staff-was-ultimate-super-group Instead of building a power running team like the Ravens have to compete against the Patriots. The Buffalo Bills try and build a high power offensive passing game with a lame backup QB as the starter. That make sense to you?

Forgive me if I come across as condescending, it wasn't my intent. Good teams can make those 2-3 yards, its how they win games. The bad teams can't make those yards and generally lose. in 2009 I watched the Baltimore Ravens defeat the Patriots in New England during a wildcard playoff game. The 2nd year QB went 4 for 10 for 34 yards and one INT in a 33-14 win. The reason the Ravens won was because of their running attack 52 attempts 234 yards and 4 TD's. They utilized their elephant offensive almost the entire game. They had 3-4 offensive tackles on that line almost every play. The Ravens gave the Buffalo Bills a perfect blueprint to beat the Patriots...nobody at OBD noticed tho.

Yea, we do see things differently! Deal with it ...

I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. I'm only replying to give my thoughts on the subject. When you look at the size and weight of the Buffalo Bills O line players Glenn 6'5" 343, Urbik 6'5'' 324, Hairston 6'6'' 330, Wood 6'4'' 304, Pears 6'8'' 305, and Levitre 6'2'' 306 was the runt of the litter. You would think that the line has more then enough size and girth to move the LoS 2-3 feet to make a first down against any opposing team. To me, Its a matter of will, determination and coaching. it is my belief that those line players should have been coached up to make a 3rd and short by rushing, they weren't. Instead Gailey chose to mostly throw in short yardage situations. He chose to install a short, quick passing scheme to help make things easier for his line. Like I've said before I'm old school, and the very first thing that line should be able to do is power block to make 2-3 yards, and get those first downs by running. Its not just the Texans & Vikings. The 49ers can do it, the Ravens can do it, Seattle can do it, among others. Almost every NFL team has an "elephant offense", which is what they utilize on goal line situations when they need a TD within the 5 yard line or closer. A closed formation set with 2-3 TE's. The Ravens used to use tackles to replace their TE's in these situations. To me, its very troubling to have the 6th best rushing offense in the NFL in 2012 and yet the line can't make a first down on 3rd and short by running from a closed formation. The spread offense along with Spiller's elusiveness was the reason for the good rushing stats. But those stats don't equate to wins if you can't control the LoS and the clock. capiche?

Thanks, I knew I was absolutely correct, and try not to be so confused.

Its not just about stats, its about the INJURIES! Its also about who replaces the player that graded as the best linemen on the line and is now on a different team. Its about can that line protect the first round pick well enough so that he can make those deep throws to the new WR's. The Bills also graded decently last season at running the ball because of CJ Spiller, "Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/ My opinion isn't going to change because you don't agree with it. Its going to change when I see the Buffalo Bills make a 3rd and short running by moving the LoS enough to get that first down!

Thanks My concerns are mostly about LT Glenn (his footwork) being able to handle the speed guys as I think he would be a much better RT. The loss of LG Levitre who graded as the best player on that line is also a concern, and who is replacing him. The overall lack of the ability for every player to stay healthy for 16 games is very disconcerting as continuity is a very important part of the line functioning as a solid unit. My reasoning for concern is when i look at the current O line of the 49ers (graded as the #1 O line) with envious eyes, and want the Buffalo Bills line to be as good someday. I'm old school and believe in building the line first, and then finding that franchise QB. The 49ers don't seem to suffer any O line injuries as every last one played a full 16 games last year. In 2011 only the RG missed 3 games. The 49ers: #1 Summary: Phenomenal. A near flawless collection of linemen. Most teams would kill for any one of the guys the 49ers put out, yet they have five of them. The introduction of Alex Boone provided a huge boost, with Anthony Davis upping his game with better play next to them. They’re a young unit by offensive line standards and look set to dominate for a long time. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/4/ All we Bills fans can do is hope this new HC knows his stuff and coaches up the current players to a higher level. Then the Bills figure out why they have so many injuries on the O line and teams like the 49ers have so few.

You are entitled to your opinion as I'm certainly entitled to mine. If anyone here is on a crusade... it is you for giving me grief every time I mention my concerns about the current O line. I firmly believe i have valid concerns and have given my reasons. I'm not the only one either as I didn't start this thread. I believe this is the statement that concerned the OP. "2) Glenn struggles - The Bills second-year starting left tackle had a couple of reps on Friday that were particularly unflattering. First he got beat by Jerry Hughes, who has made a habit of getting to the quarterback at least once every practice the media has been allowed to see. Then linebacker Marcus Dowtin gave Glenn an outside-in move, got the left tackle off-balance, and crept in for a sack. The important thing to remember, however, is that there are no pads and very little contact. However, Glenn's footwork has to be better." http://www.wgr550.com/pages/16486743.php?contentType=4&contentId=13155120 Now, just because I didn't refute the stats from pro football outsiders doesn't mean that they are correct in evaluating the O lines player abilities for 2012. Try and understand that because there wasn't significant drop off in the offensive passing or running game due to all the injuries on that line it shows me that its the scheme / QB rather then the players themselves. From pro football focus: 13. Buffalo Bills (4) PB – 5th, RB – 21st, PEN – 26th Stud: Although the star of the unit is Andy Levitre (+17.2), we can’t be the only ones that would like to see him do a little bit more in the run game. Dud: The only player on the line to get a significant negative grade, Erik Pears (-7.3) ended his season on injured reserve watching Chris Hairston make a pretty convincing claim to his starting spot. Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/ Well now, LG Andy levitre (the player who graded as the best) is now a Tennessee Titan isn't he? So the line not only lost a very good LG, it has lost the ONLY player who didn't miss playing time due to injuries the last four years. Glenn 13 games Levitre 16 games Wood 14 games Urbik 13 games Pears 7 games Its not about stats, its about WINS!

Pettine coached the NY Jets last year, and has for several years. I highly doubt the Bills defense is showing anything at this point that the O linemen haven't already seen. I didn't answer any of my own questions! Being able to throw deep with accuracy is a far cry from actually having the time in the pocket to throw deep. Despite Fitz's ability to get the ball out to the open receiver so quickly, It didn't always keep him from getting all the hits he endured after the ball was already out, or suffering those cracked / broken ribs. It also doesn't answer the line players inability to move the LoS a few yards on 3rd and short to make a first down by running. Three teams last year completely shut down the Bills run game. Now it could be said that Gailey oft times gave up on the run much to quickly in those games, who knows. Mind you, I'm not looking at OTA's and making my forming my opinions. I'm looking at last years play and forming them. I have my doubts about several starters on that line, and will continue to have doubts until I see better play from them.

Nobody in this forum appears to have any real concern about the O line except a few like myself. I suppose it doesn't bother the majority of the Bills fans that Chan Gailey couldn't control the game with either aspect of his offense, not running, not passing, and its why he didn't win many games. I think it presents a huge glaring problem with the O line when they can't move anyone off the LoS for a 1st down on 3rd and short by running. Teams like the Texans stacked the box and kept it stacked and didn't fall for Gaileys smoke n mirror short, quick passing spread offensive scheme. They held Spiller to 6 carries for 39 yards, Freddy to 6 carries for 21 yards. They literally shut down the run game and dared the bills to beat them with Fitz, and when the Bills showed no deep passing game, that was easy. Then, there was no other QB play from the back up QB's Tavaris Jackson / Tyler Thigpen to determine if either could carry the offense. Even when Fitz suffered cracked- broken ribs in 2011, and the season was out of hand at the end of 2011-2012. I mean why not at least look at the backup QB's once there is no chance of going anywhere. Besides, why put the starting QB out there for an injury in meaningless games. Its my take that Gailey (scheme)- Fitz (ability) masked some real issues with several players on that line. So the enduring question about which should you draft for first (QB or Line) is about to be shown to us again in 2013. Some fans look at the stats, over 5 YPC avg, 30 sacks allowed and think the Bills have one of the top lines in the NFL despite a revolving door at so many positions due to injuries. It tells me that the +5.0 YPC avg was due to the big runs, big plays because of the spread offensive scheme. It also tells me when there is no great drop off in play between a starter and backup at tackle, guard, center that something / someone is masking KC Joyner talks about the Buffalo Bills being the #1 team in good blocking in 2012 Spiller getting 9 ypc with good blocking, Jackson 6 YPC with good blocking, and yet teams like the 49ers -Texans - Rams absolutely shut that Bills run game down....no good blocking in those games? Lies, damned lies and statistics...show me the wins!!

While I acknowledge that Jerry Jones has done a better then average job as his own GM. I can even say I understand his thoughts on the matter. Why hire someone and pay them when you think you can pretty much do as good or even a better job, and your philosophies may conflict with his. After all he did learn from Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells. This is the thing that gets me tho, the Colts owner Jim Irsay is a complete tool in my view as I can't stand him for so many reasons. Unlike his father before him, who had his hands in every aspect of the team like JJ has, the son was smart enough to recognize the talent in Bill Polian for GM and hire him to run his team. When other teams tried to hire him away Irsay made him president,and thus giving him complete immunity from losing him. 11 years of winning seasons with countless division championships and two trips to the SB, and one win. I think Jerry Jones is smarter then Jim Irsay and could hire a Polian clone. My take is he is such a power hungry control freak he wants to prove he can get a team to a SB win all on his own. After all, he wanted to take all the credit for the Jimmy Johnson wins, and rubbed it in Johnson's nose when he won with Barry Switzer as head coach. Like I said, I'm happy Jones thinks enough of himself to be his own GM ...I'll bet the NY Giants are happy also.

NFN, but just about every draft site I looked at had EJ slated as a 4th round pick before the senior bowl. He was the best QB in that game with passing stats, 7 of 10 for 76 yards, one TD passing, one running, one INT. Not very impressive stats, he just looked so much better then all the other QB's in a very weak QB class. In the link below they talk about him moving from a 3-4 round pick into the 2nd round. At that time Mike Mayock mentioned he wouldn't be surprised if EJ moved to the top of the 1st round....so. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/27/3920108/senior-bowl-2013-ej-manuel-mvp-draft-stock Anyway I h8 the Cowboys, and I'm happy that Jerry Jones thinks enough of himself to be his own GM.

So nice to hear from a fan of another team that isn't a jackass. and is actually a good guy. I root for the Packers, Aaron Rodgers in the NFC. Hope the Bills get someone as good someday.

What these Bills fans simply don't understand...as a "gunner" and not a KR / PR scorer it was unheard of to be named to the pro bowl 7x, much less be an MVP of the pro bowl 1993 pro bowl " Special teams ace Steve Tasker of the AFC Champion Buffalo Bills was named the player of the game for making four tackles, forcing a fumble and blocking a field goal. His block came at a crucial point with just 8 minutes left and the game tied at 13." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Pro_Bowl

That statement is just outright ridiculous, Pike played ST's for the Bills for 11 years, but what did he accomplish in those 11 years? Oh, let me tell ya, one INT, 38 tackles, 3 assists, one fumble recovery in 11 years... Tasker , 7x pro bowls, MVP of the pro bowl. 9 TD's receiving, 779 yards receiving, 130 yards rushing. 7 fumbles, 6 recovered, one safety. 2054 in return yards. and countless tackles on special teams Hall of fame finalist 2004, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 From Bill Polian, "Steve Tasker was, pound-for-pound, the greatest special-teams player ever to play," Polian said. "If you value special teams, then Steve Tasker belongs in the Hall of Fame. I am also an unabashed Ray Guy fan. "I've seen every player that's played in this game since 1977, and I can tell you Ray Guy literally changed the game -- as did Steve Tasker." http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/tag/_/name/steve-tasker

Hey man, I'm not the only one who thinks Tasker is the greatest special teamer ever as he was ranked #9 on the NFL networks top 10 players NOT in the HoF. He went on the Bills wall of fame in 2007.Also, on Nov 22, 2011 Tasker was named one of the semifinalists in balloting for the Pro football hall of fame. So they are thinking of him, just not as much as many Bills fans like me would like. At 5'9'' 183 lbs. If you ever watched him play as a "gunner" he was just unbelievable as they couldn't block him, almost always the first player to reach the return man. He was a feared hitter, and forced many fumbles. Towards the end of his career with the Bills Tasker became a prime target for Jim Kelly at WR, and looked he very Wes Welker ish in doing so. Kind of a shame he was so valuable to special teams he didn't get a chance to play more WR early in his career. They made a move about Eagles gunner Vince Papale called Invincible, and this guy only played 3 years. Granted he was a walkon who found fame, but he can't hold Taskers Jock strap.

I am one of the those who disagrees. First, Chuck Knox was a HC for the Seattle Seahawks HC, Rams, Bills. First NFL head coach to win three different titles with three different teams. With the Rams, 5 straight NFC West Championships, 3 NFC Championship games. HC for 22 years in the NFL, and 7 division titles. Knox never found that elite QB, Bills, Seahawks or he would have won a SB IMO. I think he should be in the NFL HoF I think the best Buffalo Bills HC in Marv Levy should be in the HoF, right there with his QB, DE, RB, and so should WR Andre Reed, Special Teams ace Steve Tasker. Now if only the morons who vote for the HoF would take a hard look at the very best special teamer in the history of the NFL in Steve Tasker. 7x pro bowler, What other special teams player played 14 years in the NFL (12 with the Bills) or was the pro bowl MVP? Named first team all pro for 12 years by PFW

For all you Bills fans complaining that Marv didn't win a SB in four tries. Consider that there are still NFL teams that have never been to a super bowl. Just think, you could be a Browns fan The Cleveland Browns... never been The Detroit Lions...never been The Jacksonville Jaguars....never been The Houston Texans....never been The Houston Oilers never made it until they became the Tennessee Titans, and they only made one appearance. The Cincinnati Bengals, 2x no wins The San Diego Chargers, once, no wins The Minnesota Vikings, 4x, no wins Arizona Cardinals once, no wins The Philadelphia Eagles, 2x no wins The Carolina Panthers, once, no wins The Seattle Seahawks, once, no wins Count your blessings for 4x Buffalo Bills Super Bowl appearances. It would have been great to have just one win, but then I don't think they would have gone to 4 straight.

Lets face some facts here, this owner has been more concerned with making a profit then building a winning org. The proof in this statement is in his distinct knowledge that he knows if he hired another HC like Chuck Knox (a proven NFL winner) He would have a winning team. Instead he keeps trying to find gold with maybes and wannabes head coaches. How would you feel as an NFL player when you know you have a window of an average of three years to get a ring and win a championship. Isn't that every players ultimate dream? Not every player is solely concerned with just his paycheck. I don't fault any player for any team for whatever he says that has to endure year after year of losing. As a fan I can't tolerate all the losing, as a player I'd ask to be traded to a team that has an honest shot to accomplish something. OTOH,Me, I'd just keep my mouth shut and let my actions, and work ethic speak for me.

all ya gotta do is Google ''wide right" I find it particularly ironic that Marv Levy's specialty was in special teams and that was what they will always remembered for failing in, in that first SB. A 47 yard field goal on grass ...Scott Norwood wide right with 8 seconds left. Levy knew that Norwood made fewer the 50% of any field goals over 40 yards on grass. Norwood was 1of 5 for FG's over 40 yards that year. It was only 2nd down, 2nd and 10 from the 29 yard line with 8 seconds on the clock.

Marv was a great HC in the sense he was smart enough, and secure enough to hire top talent in some of his assistant coaches. aka, Ted Marchibroda who was the ex Colts HC and tutored QB Bert Jones. Marchibroda taught Jim Kelly to call all his own offensive plays. Which was something that was unheard of at that time. Between Marv and Ted they thought up running the no huddle all game long because Kelly was so adept at running the 2 min drill. Marv was never an OC or DC but a special teams coach under the late George Allen. Its why the Bills special teams were usually always so good as Marv had a hand in them. The other factor that makes a great coach is can he motivate million dollar babies to do their jobs, and yes Marv was a supreme motivator. Some of his "marvisms" still live on today. My favorite, in the huddle on the sideline telling his players before a game, "where else would you rather be, then right here right now! Ability without character will not win! "Don't be dumb, don't be dirty." "This game is not a must win, WWII was a must win." "If Michelangelo wanted to play it safe he would have painted the floor of the Sistine chapel." "Great football coaches have the vision to see, the faith to believe, the courage to do... and 25 great players." "Security comes from earning it--not seeking it." "Systems don't win, players do." "Adversity is an opportunity for heroism." "The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender." "What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy." "Plan your work and work your plan." "If you have everything prepared, the rest will take care of itself." "What you do should speak so loudly that no one will hear what you say." "Expect rejection, but expect even more strongly to overcome it." "There will be many failures sprinkled among the successes you enjoy." "A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." ''I am hurt but I am not slain. I'll lay me down and bleed awhile,Then I'll rise and fight again.'' No other NFL head coach has taken their team to four straight super bowls, and probably never will. He deserves to be in the NFL hall of fame. EDIT: Oh when when the Bills went down to Miami and gave Dan Marino's Dolphins a sound beating in that Miami heat, I can only think of another Marvism..."when its too tough for them, its just right for us"

/salute

From my perspective that is what helped Chuck Knox make the playoffs so quickly with the Bills as he already had a decent, but not great QB in Joe Ferguson. Knox was a proven winner as a head coach in the NFL before he was hired by the Bills, and because of the lack of "elite" talent at the QB position in all his NFL teams he never made it to the super bowl. Not trying to knock the new Bills coach...but the odds of him having success in Buffalo are so stacked against him its unreal. Doug Marrone not only has the difficulty of building a winning program out of a franchise with a history of thirteen years of losing in the NFL. Which is something that even experienced ex NFL players, and assistant NFL coaches with history of winning fail to succeed in accomplishing. The Bills play against arguably the very best head coach in the league in Bill Belichick 2x a year. In the Bills recent past, Not Gregg Williams. Not Mike Mularkey. Not Dick Jauron. Not Chan Gailey, and some of them even hired decent assistant coaches. Marrone not only has to turn around a losing NFL program with the team, he also needs to develop a rookie QB which can easily take 3-5 years on an already good team. In case you guys missed it, Jim Harbaugh was not only a first round pick for the Chicago Bears in 1987. He played QB, starter / backup in the NFL for fourteen years, for the Bears, Colts, Ravens, Chargers, Lions, Panthers. (1987-2001) Then in 1994 he took a job as an assistant coach at the college level in Western Kentucky and stayed for eight years. Spent two years as QB coach for the Raiders. Went back to college and was the head coach at San Diego for 3 years (29-6), then to Stanford for 4 years (29-21). 17 years as a coach BEFORE he took the job with the 49ers and has 2 years there under his belt. But then look at his years at Stanford. He took over a program from Walt Harris (5-6 to 1-11) So Harbaugh took over a 1-11 team! In 2007 he went 4-8. In 2008 he went 5-7. in 2009 he went 8-5 (same as Marrone) In 2010 he went 12-1.His only loss was to Oregon that year, a team that was undefeated. It was the first 11 win season in the history of the school, and went on to beat VT in the Orange Bowl . Harbaugh also developed QB Andrew Luck who turned out to be the #1 overall pick in 2012. So because of the success of Jim Harbaugh with the 49ers a few teams were interested in going the college route this year. Oregon's Chip Kelly who went to the Eagles and Syracuse's Doug Marrone were the only two afaik. Notre Dame's Brian Kelly as well as Penn state's Bill O'Brien also drew interest. In my view Doug Marrone has a monumental task in front of him. All I can do is hope he is up to this task and is given the three years Nix gave Gailey.

I can't help think that as bad as the Dick Jauron teams might have been at 7-9 for three seasons, it really was the many injuries to the players / starters that helped kill every season. Besides all the other problems.(Save the 2009 season in which he blew it up himself before it even started.) It seems like every year it was almost twenty plus players on IR every season. .Chan Gailey tried to counter this problem by bringing in more trainers, and it didn't seem to help as center Eric Wood who suffered another knee injury last year, who in his four years has never finished a season. Seems like every year the Bills players suffer many more injuries then other teams. My thoughts are the Bills installed new turf in 2011, A Turf Titan 50 system. But I wonder if natural grass would help keep the players on the field and off IR. Mind you the Buffalo Bills recently installed A-Turf in 2011, and with a 12 year guarantee so in all probability they won't even consider anything different for quite a while. http://www.aturf.com/index.php/site/buffalo-bills-field/ "While many players prefer FieldTurf, others fear possible injuries playing on it. Former Jets nose tackle Kris Jenkins believes FieldTurf might have caused his two knee injuries. Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger argues that it is “a great field, but FieldTurf is just killing guys because they can't get their feet out of the ground.” Two different studies published in 2012 lend credence to players' concerns over injuries. Elliott Hershman and others reviewed NFL injury data from games played between 2000 and 2009. They found that the injury rate of knee sprains as a whole was 22 percent higher on FieldTurf than on natural grass. Rates of ACL injuries were 67 percent higher on FieldTurf." http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20130125/PC20/130129550/real-grass-vs-artificial-turf Yikes, 67%! The reason the Bills replaced the AstroTurf ... In the ‘Worst Artificial Infilled Playing Field’ category, the Shaw Sportexe field in Minnesota was ranked as the worst artificial surface in the league by NFL players, followed by Astroturf’s surface at Ralph Wilson Stadium in Buffalo and Astroturf’s surface at the Edward Jones Dome in St. Louis. http://www.fieldturf.com/en/artificial-turf/artificial-turf-news/nfl-players-rank-fieldturf-as-best-artificial-surface/ I know that Thurman Thomas loved the turf at Rich Stadium because of the crown and downward slope from the middle, he literally was running downhill. I believe that has been changed to a more level field. Anyway, I'm old school and like natural grass. I like seeing the players sometimes covered in mud in the rain and snow. Big clods of grass / dirt hanging from their face masks after a play. Unlike bazeball, football doesn't stop because its raining or snowing. I would love to see Tom Brady get sacked and have his jersey get dirty playing in Buffalo on grass....ahh well, never gonna happen.

I first gave that a thought and then remembered the defense has been fuxxed with by George Edwards and his 3-4, then by Wannstooge and his 4-3. Meanwhile Buddy Nix drafting players to fit multiple schemes over the last three years. I think the Bills FO (Brandon) had seen enough of Jauron's Tampa 2 to hate it as much as most Bills fans do. The Buffalo Bills scouting dept had four years to find players to fit that scheme and failed miserably. Another reason in my view to NOT hire Lovie Smith.