Alphadawg7
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Posts posted by Alphadawg7
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you're guess would be correct....my bad...what is a good college rating, because the 110, 139 and 120 numbers would be great in the pros.
I figured that was the case, and if you didnt follow College football much you most likely would not know this. College QB rating system is completely different with many top QB's having ratings in the mid 140's to 150's.
In case you are curious to just how different the rating systems are, I will show you the difference in his ratings. Below is each year of college and the rating he had along with what the NFL QB rating would be with the exact same stats.
2004
College: 110.29
NFL: 67.96
2005
College: 139.01
NFL: 94.65
2006
College: 120.55
NFL: 76.52
PS: Pardon me if I seemed flustered in my earlier coorespondence, the threads daring to compare a struggling QB to the greats brings that out some times, lol...
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You obviously have never played a sport in your life. He didn't sucker punch him, they have pads on for a reason. I am just happy Maybin is showing some fire. Good for Hangartner, we centers don't take any SH_T!!
+1
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Do you all what to know who the true Captain Checkdown is?...It was Jauron.
How many times did Trent say last year, when questioned, I'm just doing what
the coaches tell me to do. And behind an injured, porous Oline, with nothing
resembling an offensive plan and a head coach playing not to lose, they were
telling him get the ball out as fast as you can. There was no time for long plays
to the WRs to develop and the coaches were afraid to call inside slants. And what are you
going to do as the starting QB, disobey the head coach? Well then you'll be riding
the pine.
No disputing our offensive scheme was putrid last year...it was unquestionably awful. However, that being said, the issues that led to the name Capn Checkdown were not because of designed plays where he was to come out and get rid of the ball quick. It was dropping back looking at his first read, panicing, bringing the ball down and then dumping off DESPITE guys being open further down field. It was throwing it 2 yards on 3 and 9 rather than going for the first down when the opportunities to do so were there.
His field vision has never been strong in the NFL so far, however, that was too be expected as a young QB in his first year or two. However, last year he took a big step backwards and its like he needed glasses or something. The coaching support was awful, no doubt, so maybe a better staff now can really help him square away all the mental weaknesses that have plagued him this year.
Until he can find poise, confidence, the ability to time throws and read the defenses he will never be any good. Unfortunately, these are key areas he has regressed at during his time with the Bills. We can only hope Chan and Co. can reverse this through better coaching and game preperation...
PS: A plea to Coach Gailey: Please oh please teach him how to throw a deep pass that doesnt look like a jump ball hail mary with an hour of hang time...
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Trent Edwards looked like a leader out there. I think he deserved the nod for #1.
It might be time for all of the "brohmies" to move on. Chan seems unimpressed. Levi got more reps today than Brohm, although Brohm was declared a rotating #2.
Chan Gailey has brought a sense of toughness and discipline to camp.
Aaron god damn Maybin looks like he weighs 190 pounds!! Skinny is the word actually. He was thrown on his a$$ a few times during one on ones. On a similar note, Stroud is noticeably slimmer and Dwan Edwards looks to be in good shape.
Alex Carrington looks like a monster! I can't get over it. I can't wait to see him play.
Troup looks slightly small for a NT, but we'll have to see if he plays bigger.
Stevie Johnson looked polished. I expect him to be the #2 based on Chan's comments and the way he looks out there.
Marshawn can find a way to make standing still look difficult.
All of the safeties look like Mr. Clean.
The lack of depth at OL stood out. Aside from Eric Wood and Andy Levitre, nobody looked like a starting OLineman in 1 on 1 drills.
Poz looks like a monster. He looks like he cut up but kept the muscle.
I can't wait to see CJ!
I still like Brohm and think he has a lot of potential, however, like I have always said I will fully support Trent if Chan figures out how to mold him into a good QB. I have not been impressed with him at all and the fact that he looks good in camp is getting old too. If he can come out and lead our offense to points in the preseason I will start holding out hope again, but just looking good in practice is something I have heard often with him just to see it not translate to the games.
Every year we hear how good he looks and how the offense looks dangerous during practice (same with Roscoe). Then the season starts and all of a sudden we frequently have drives that consist of a 2 yard run, and two complete passes for 6 yards for a 3 and out punt on 4th and 2. End of game stats has Trent completing 70% of his passes but he still only has 160 yards (with only 5 total targets to our WR's all game), maybe 1 TD, a fumble, and a pick, all of which leads to a 24-13 loss.
So, if Trent can turn it around and figure out how to command a game and lead this team under Chan, then great, but I need to see it in a game before I will believe it. All I want is a good QB, I dont care who it is. I dont have a lot of faith in Trents moxy to pull this off, but hopefully Chan can bring it out of him or one of our other guys.
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Minus Desean Jackson and Eddie Royal, the WR's from that draft haven't been much. Look at the highly touted Malcom Kelly and Devin Thomas selected by the Redskins in the 2nd as well. There is talk of Kelly being cut and Thomas can't stay healthy, quit partying like a rockstar, or put it together on the field.
I actually think Thomas will have a break out year this year...keep an eye on him as a late round pick or wavier wire pick up in your fantasy leagues...
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Yes. Remember how Chan seemed to make it a point to mention that Brohm had made "a jump" the last few weeks of OTAs?
He also cautioned media and fans not to give too much meaning to who is taking the first snap, etc.
I believe that the preseason games will weigh quite heavily.
Chan has mentioned that some players play better in practices and some play better in games.
I think he'll go by how they perform in the games.
But clearly they want to give Trent the first opportunity to succeed or fail.
I actually think that all 3 will get a start during the first 3 preseason games unless one of them significantly falls behind the others before their chance to start.
Like you said and what I have been saying all along, this pecking order is just the beginning to the competition and whoever starts week 1 will have had to win that opporunity in the first 3 preseason games. I would suspect after the 3rd preseason game that Chan will name a starter going into the final preseason game.
Its no surprise that based on experience Trent is the guy listed as QB1 to start camp and the first shot to hold onto it. But Chan has made no secret that its still anybodys job and that its very close and all three guys will get a fair shot to win it.
One thing about Trent though, he has always been a better practice QB than in game QB in his time here, and like you said, Chan has made reference to how players can tend to be that way. So, our first preseason game (assuming Trent starts it) will be critical in Trents quest to secure the job unquestionably.
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I think it will be Trent or Brohm...Trent is the slightest of favorites, maybe less than a 5% margin over Brohm IMO.
However, lets look at the significance of it.
Trent - He really needs to start camp as QB1 in order to have a shot of holding on to it. If he enters camp as anything other than QB1 then he will have to severly outplay the others to get it back. Demoting him would show an indication of readiness to move on and he will not have to be just a little bit better but a lot better than whoevers ahead of him to over take that spot. If he does start camp as QB1, it would be on a very short leash anyway.
Brohm - Starting as QB1 would be a huge vote of confidence in the kid that could do a lot for speeding up his development. Even though he will still have to play well enough to hold to it, the initial listing of him atop the depth chart would show that they are ready to move forward with him as long as he can keep progressing. However, of the 3, it matters the least with him to start camp as QB1 because the staff will give him every opportunity to win the job anyway.
Fitz - I think there is a small chance at best he will enter camp as QB1, especially since he seemed to get the least posiive news in the OTA's in the camp reports. I don't think anyone really views him as a long term asnwer and he would have to play at a high level in camp to over take the #1 spot, or atleast significantly be better than Trent and Brohm. Starting camp as QB1 would probably be the best shot he would have at starting week 1, but I think is the long shot to do either.
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I think at this point we all assumed Schobel would be back, but sources deep within the leafy suburb of Orchard Park confirm that #94 is back. Thank god for gossiping housewives. He is planning on keeping his family in Texas, and renting a place up here. Maybe this thread won't get deleted.
If this proves to be accurate, then that will be great news for a young defense.
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He could be the odd man out in Cincinnati. I know he doesn't have the greatest background, and he's been in some trouble. But this guy could be a great possession receiver for this team. He's a great athlete, he's tall, and he's experienced. We're not exactly loaded at the WR position, and he could be had for cheap.
Antonio Bryant has not impressed and they have concerns about his health at this point which is why they decided to bring in TO. So I really doubt they will cut anyone going into the season. However, if they did cut Jones he should not be brought in. His resume isnt any where good enough to bring him in with his baggage. More importantly he just isnt worth holding back our younger guys back. Our young guys need playing time and all have a lot of potential themselves. Its time to see what they can do.
Roy Williams is the only potential cut (although I really dont believe he will be cut) that has had enough success and is young enough to take a risk on IMHO. But I really would like to see what our current young guns can do before we start looking outside our team for help.
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Honestly, this is a great fit for both sides. He still has some game left in him and they needed someone that can take pressure off of Ocho. Not to mention they are already accustom to dealing with a bigger than life personality in Ocho, so dealing with TO should be familiar for them. It also helps they have a solid running game and solid QB with young talent at TE as well. He should compliment their game and likely will be a happy camper being on a contender.
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Gailey has gone out of his way to protect the identity of the QB who will initially work with the first, second and third teams.
First, coming into camp, do you think the pecking order will be clear or do you think Chan will continue to obfuscate even at this point?
I think it will be pretty obvious even though he will shuffle things up.
Second, what do you think the pecking order will be at the start of camp:
1. Fitz
2. Trent
3. Brohm
Third, what do you think the pecking order should be at the start of camp:
1. Trent
2. Fitz
3. Brohm
First - I think the pecking order will be known, but he also has made it clear that its not an indication of who will start week 1 as the QB battle will still be an open competition in camp. I do expect that the battle is more likely between 2 QBs though rather than 3.
Second - I think the pecking order is more likely going to be Trent, then Brohm, then Fitz to start camp. Trents experience is probably what keeps him there at start of camp. Brohm being relative unknown is going to need to be able show some ability with the pads on and in preseason before I think he gets bumped up. Fitz I just dont think is being viewed as full time starter material.
Third - I think the pecking order should be Brohm, Trent, Fitz. I think Brohm has a much higher cieling so why not continue to bolster his confidence and let him start camp at the top and really get him the reps to develop. Trent by default should be the #2 looking to move back to #1 if he can have a good camp and Brohm struggles. Again, I just dont think Fitz is full time starter material and would be a very good back up.
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QB: BETTER - I understand why you put the same, however this group is better than last season. First, Brohm now has relevant experience in both the system and with his teammates, that notion alone makes him better than last year. Second, the new coaching regime has a proven track record of getting more out of its QBs than others have, so that also in their favor given they are not in that pop warner scheme anymore.
RB: BETTER - Clearly better with having Lynch from the get go and adding the best RB in the draft.
WR: BETTER - Again, I totally see why you put worse given a future HOF WR left this team and the underrated Reed is gone. But, I think our young guys have the potential to be better than Reed was and better than the version of TO we got last year. But thats not why I put better. I put better because last years coaches were the most clueless in history on how to get the balls into the WR's hands. The new system I think will be designed to take advantage the abilities of Lee and some of our young guys making the unit more productive. Also, I feel like the improved QB play that I expect also will allow this unit to improve as well.
TE: SAME - Honestly, I want to put better here just on the notion that Nelson will presumably be better now that he has some experience under his belt and will be in a more favorable offense that the inept system we had last year.
OL: BETTER - Nothing can be worse than last year, and getting some players back from injury automatically upgrades it. Not to mention our young guys have more experience now and we added an interesting pick in Wang to the line. Not saying they will be neccessarily good, but barring more bad injuries, this line will be better than last year.
DL: SAME - This is based on the assumption that Schobel wont be back. With Schobel I would rate this unit BETTER as we added some intriguing young guys like Troup to the fold and also Dwan, but without Schobel I cant officially say better until someone can prove to be able to step up in his place. I know Schobel would be moved around in this defense, but he still would shuffle in and out of the DL I would expect and his presence would help the guys up front regardless of where he lines up.
LB: BETTER - This is a unit with clear upgrades like RB. Davis is a great addition to this D and we finally have a little depth. Poz has been getting better each yead and then add in Maybin as a potential sleeper to have an impact playing on the outside and this unit looks better to me.
DB: BETTER - I was tempted to put same given the personnel are about the same, but the sheer fact that we get Byrd with a year under his belt from the start of the season this year already makes this unit better along with our DB's.
ST: SAME - Hard to tell with this unit...we added a playmaker in Spiller, but we already had big playmakers on ST the last few years, so cant really say better. Could be worse with April gone, but too early to tell. So I put same.
Coaching: BETTER - What really needs to be said here...a monkey would be better than last years debacle, especially at OC.
Overall I think this team is better than last years team in both talent and coaching. Health and schemes are a big reasons why I think some of these units will be better as well, but we did add some players in draft and FA that I think are going to upgrade several units.
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Alpha- don't read into stats so much. If your eyes tell you he is a good QB, believe them. If they tell you he isn't, then go with that too.
Stats are based on the talent level of the team. You know the game well enough to know what you are watching.
I definitely hear ya...I was just searching for something to substantiate the optimism because I thought I was missing something. This was actually brought on because of some Evans bashing that was going on. It was just mind boggling that a guy who produced at a high level in college and a high level to start his NFL career doesnt get any breaks for his struggles while catching passes from struggling QBs...then to see threads for a guy with a poor NFL resume and marginal college resume having excuses after excuse made for him.
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I get so tired of seeing these posts. Yes, we know people don't like Trent. Really people are going to start judging him by what he did in High School?
Everyone here knows that 99% of the Bills problems for the past few years were due to coaching and injuries. So relax and enjoy training camp.
Huh? This isnt about what he did in high school, its about what he hasnt done since high school where he was a top 5 recruit. The point was that his resume in college in the NFL is not really impressive, so if his resume isnt creating the optimism then what is? All the potential and stuff seems to stem from his grading as a top 5 recruit coming out of HS, so I found that interesting. I just cant think of another player I have ever seen in the NFL really have the optimism follow them this long based on HS accomplishments.
And 99% huh? So, only 1% was the collective QB play and the OL? You have to be kidding...
Me personally, I cant wait for training camp and will enjoy it. If Chan can turn Trent around, then I will be a happy camper. I dont care if Trent wins the job as long as we dont get the Trent of the last 3 years. If Chan can mold him into a solid QB then I will stand up and cheer. IMHO, I dont think he will because I long lost faith in Trents ability to lead a team, and witth no prior track record to inspire hope I just have a hard time seeing him turn it around.
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Did you look that up or did you assume it?
2007: 5-4 (GS)
2008: 7-7 (GS)
Thanks for catching that...I updated it. When I was thumbing over his pro stats I missed a couple on the GS. I didnt assume it, I was just going through his game log stats and miss tallied a couple he played in but didnt start.
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Just to add some fairness and balance to the discussion (because up to now, there has been none), one of the reasons why Trent Edwards is still highly regarded is the following (and quarterbacks who excelled in high school carry that advantage with them for a long time):
"Trent Edwards was a highly-rated recruit from Los Gatos High School and was ranked as the #1 pro-style quarterback by USA Today in 2001.[1] Rivals rated Edwards as the #2 pro-style quarterback and #20 player overall in its rankings.[2] He was recruited by Michigan, Florida, Notre Dame and Tennessee, but ultimately chose Stanford. In his junior and senior seasons at Los Gatos, he led the team to two undefeated seasons and back-to-back Central Coast Section Division III championships. In his senior year, he completed 154 of 213 passes for 2,535 yards, 29 touchdowns, three interceptions, and was named as a National Football Foundation Hall of Fame Scholar-Athlete for Santa Clara County."
The other factor that has to be mentioned in fairness (if anyone is concerned about fairness) is that at Stanford as with the Buffalo Bills, Trent Edwards has played under inarguably inept and incompetent regimes.
You may now return to the regularly scheduled bashing.
That was my point...he has lived on the high school hype through everything while producing very little on the field. Thats why I dont get. There are dozens of these kind of recruits at every position every year and some go on to have success and some dont. I have never seen someone live on their high school resume as long as him.
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This is actually why I am excited so much for this season, because I think we have several players who have breakout potential this year. We already know our secondary and running game should be very strong too. In no particular order:
Individuals:
Brohm - I feel like he will win the job and if he does will surprise some people.
Nelson - Gailey will recognize his value to building our QB's up and will look to utilize his athleticism in passing game
Whitner - With him being better utilized and playing along side Byrd, I think he should have a pretty good season
Maybin - This defense is much better suited for him, needs to step up this year
Carrington - I liked him coming out and if Schobel doesnt come back officially should see some significant PT
Evans - If one of our QB's can come out and produce, I think Evans has a bounce back season in this new system.
Spiller - Wont be a surprise IMO, I actually think he could easily go for 1200+ combined yards rushing and recieving this year while splitting time with Freddie.
Units:
DL - I think our DL with Troup, Stroud, Williams and company have potential. Especially with such a good secondary.
Other WR's - (depends on QB play showing real improvement though) I like the potential of Steve, Easley, Roscoe, and Hardy. If the QB play can be at least solid, then with our dangerous rush attack I think one of these guys will see a lot of one on one and could breakout...which one remains to be seen.
Dark horse sleper:
OL - I know its viewed as a weak unit, but I like our young guys, especially Levitre and Wood. I think Wang and someone like Meredith or Bell could also surprise. This OL could be solid if they can gel and not be nagged by injuries. The coaching staff seems to have confidence in some of these young guys.
Maybe I am overly optimistic this year, but I actually think we have some good young talent on this team.
The KEY for me though will be if a QB can emerge. If not, then our whole team will struggle. Rush attack will suffer with a stacked box, obviously passing attack wont be good, and all of that would lead to our D being on the field constantly and wearing down as well.
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What does Matt Cassel's mother think about Edwards? Because if she's pro-Trentative, then he should start.
lmao...you are still on that, geezus? You need a hobby...
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d80bc...into-contenders
Edwards has turned longtime-counterfeit Bills into contenders
By Vic Carucci NFL.com
Its too bad that those guys didnt actually watch those whole games, otherwise they would have seen Trent struggle in vast majority of the Jax, Oak, and Rams games. In fact, we struggled to move the ball all game in all 3 with Trent having really bad first halves in those games. ST, Mitchell, Lynch, Freddie, etc made huge plays to make those wins happen or we would have lost all 3.
Lets not forget they were all against some of the worst teams in football too. We got a lot of hype because of the preseasson belief Jax and Sea were going to be good, so thats why peoples eyes opened up becuase it looked like quality wins at the time since they were the first 2 games...later it would be known that neither team was very good that year and neither was Trent.
So, again, why do those few games somehow hype him up to Bills fans?
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Not trying to be a dick but how did you end up with his jersey in the first place?
I bought it. Like most people, I had hope for him early on until he played his way out of favor for me. Now I just get ragged on when I wear it and stopped wearing it after the Cle debacle.
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Let me just say that we should at least look at him if he is indeed cut. This guy has produced, and even on bad teams with bad quarterbacks. For whatever reason, he has not worked out in Dallas. I am a BIG supporter of giving our young guys some playing time to see what we have and if we need to address a position next year.
However, Roy is just 28, so if he did find his form again he could be a long term answer at WR, unlike some aging vet like TO was. This guy not only produced in Det, but was a highlight reel making all kinds of incredible catches. So, he has talent, but something has happened since he got to Dallas. Either he just hasnt been able to settle into that offense or lost some confidence (or a combo of both), but he was a playmaker and for more than one fluke season. In fact, at this point, he has had more good seasons than bad.
So, if he is cut, he would be a very attractive player to bring in and see what he can do given his age and the ability he has shown in the past. Not to mention, he has good size too. He is about the only WR on the market I would endorse bringing in over our young guys though...If he struggles, then cut him and roll with our young core, and I do like the potential of our young guys.
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I've got to admit, I liked T. Edwards when he took over for J.P., and the Walsh endorsement only helped. But, I liked J.P. when he first started, too. Watching T. Edwards last year was, in my opinion, watching the worst play of any QB I've ever seen. It was painful to watch. It was obvious he had some kind of mental problem, fear related, going on. What I liked about him when he started, though, was that despite not doing anything overwhelming, the offense stayed on the field longer, much more so than with J.P., and was consistent - not great, but consistent, and therefor the defense played better. The whole team played much better. It might be that his limitations were found out quickly by opposing defensive coordinators, or that he just fell apart mentally after getting hit too much - I don't know, but I think if he starts this year over a guy who could have potential (in Brohm), then he better play really good, much better than average, because we know what he has, and we've seen him fall apart, and that isn't worth holding someone else back (Brohm) from developing or not.
I don't want to have any excuses next offseason for not drafting the top QB - like not having evaluated our guys enough. Either we have a star QB, or we need one. It's that clear to me.
I hear ya, but I think his early favortism came more from the fact that he wasnt JP. I mean, some of that is going on now with Fitz who is probably less talented than Trent, yet despite his bad play last year the offense appeared more effective with him than Trent. So now some people are calling for Fitz, yet he isnt any good either.
If Chan can turn Trent into a solid QB or better, than great. I will even wear my Trent jersey again in support of him. But, I just dont really think Trent has it in him mainly because there is no history at any level of any prior success. Of course even if Chan can get something out of him, it would remain to be seen how long he could even stay on the field. I really dont think Trent will enter week 1 as the starter, especially after the positive comments by Chan on Brohm. He may be atop the pecking order to start TC as a formality, but I just dont see the upside in rolling with him over someone like Brohm who offers more upside.
And if none of them can win over the staff, then we will be getting a QB next year very early in the first round.
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I just dont understand something...where does the optimism come from with Trent Edwards? Seriously, I cant find a single thing he has done since high school to have the kind of "potential" label and optimism placed on him like it does on this board. I mean even comparison threads to playes elite QBs like Brees come up for him, but his college career was bad and so is his NFL career...
So I decided to dig a little bit to see what I was missing. Turns out it just got worse...here are some overlooked facts about Trent...seriously, read these as they are not very encouraging to say the least...
Only had more TD's than INTs just ONCE in college (17-7)
Only had more TD's than INTS's just ONCE in NFL (11-10)
Only had more than 11 TD's in a season ONCE since HIGH SCHOOL
Only had a 300 yard game ONCE since HIGH SCHOOL
Never had a winning season or .500 season in college
Has thrown for more than 1 TD only 15 times since HIGH SCHOOL (6 of those were in 1 season at Stanford)
Has alomost the same number of games with more than 1 turnover (14 times) in that same span
Has ZERO seasons without injury since High School
Stanford won just 1 game his last year, and it a game he did NOT play in due to injury.
Serous question...where on Earth does the "potential" come from? Why does this guy who was not good in college or the NFL get so many excuses made for him and then players like Lee Evans who were studs in college and started off great in the NFL (until he started catching passes from Trent) get slammed for not catching more imginary passes that dont get thrown to him by this inept QB?
Is it the Bill Walsh endorsement? I mean Walsh is the same guy who said Jim Drunkenmiller would be the next great SF QB and that JJ Stokes was going to be the next Rice (even trading up for him)...I mean, he had a great eye and was one of the best, but he was wrong plenty of times. Not to mention had been away from football for a while when he endorsed Trent.
Never have I ever seen someone survive so loooonnnnggg on their high school hype, becaue I cant find anything to warrant it from his college career nor NFL career thus far.
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I think he had high expectations coming from high school and was viewed as a disappointment but look at his carreer college stats...
Stats Overview Passing
YEAR CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
2004 149 274 1732 54.4 6.32 76 9 11 20 110.29
2005 168 268 1934 62.7 7.22 49 17 7 29 139.01
2006 94 156 1027 60.3 6.58 48 6 6 22 120.55
He played on a team that had an enormous amount of injuries and that lacked talent. he had zero wins his last year but you fail to mention that he played in only six games due to injury. His qb rating was very good. I don't know if he can turn it around either, but i'm willing to see what he does with Gailey as his head coach.
Im going to guess you dont follow college football very much, because those are not very good stats nor are the QB ratings impressive.
In 3 years he totaled a pathetic 32 TDs...thats barely 10 a season in college (and actually he only had at least 10 once)!!! Not to mention he also still threw 24 INTs...so 32 TDs with 24 INTs...come on now.
Do you realize this guy has only thrown for more than 11 TDs in a season ONCE...just ONCE since high school?
Jason Lacanfora just reported Bills and Spiller not close
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
First off, it will not surprise me if he holds out for a bit given his public comments about not rushing into a deal. At the same time, this is a business and this is a moment that will set him up for life. No one knows if he will be any good for sure, no one knows if will get hurt or not, etc etc. This may be his only big payday as another one isnt guaranteed. So, I dont blame him (or Maybin) for being commited to getting the right deal (within reason of course).
Second, Agents are going to come in and go way above market and the team is come in and try to get a deal for as low as they can. I am sure the team is using the fact we have 2 good RB's as leverage (I know I would) as to them not being in a rush, and I fully expect his agent wont shut up about how he was a top 3 player and the best RB and offensive weapon in the draft and should be paid accordingly.
So its not really a surprise that they are far apart right now, but I also think there is a little game of chicken being played here as each week of camp goes by someone is going to start sweating and more realistic negotiations will commence.