Alphadawg7

Do threads ever end here? LOL

Oh my...not the annual "Clowney" thread...I really thought this might the year we didn't get it ha

Wait what? You want to instead compare the belief of what 2023 MIGHT be prior to playing instead of what we now KNOW they were after playing? Come on, this is getting silly now. No disrespect, but Diggs in 2022 has nothing to do with what Diggs was for all of 2023. Second, I already posted this just prior to your post, I am just gonna quote it below rather than rewrite it again. As far as having "no clue" what this group is just something I don't agree with, we know enough to have a reasonable idea of what each guy is in comparison to the guys who were here in 2023. Its fine if you agree or disagree with any of the below, but IMHO I think they are all fair statements and I think several really aren't disputable.

I think we know more than you may realize... We know Diggs wasn't the same in Brady's offense and also had some big drops. We know that Palmer is seen to have better hands, bigger route tree, better route runner, and more consistent at getting open than Davis has been. We know Keon was on pace as a rookie before he got hurt in week 11 to hit 800-900 yards and 7+ TD's. And this was despite not being a full time starter, playing in a spread the ball around offense that saw Allen connecting with 8 to 10 different receivers most weeks. We know Shakir is a better player in 2025 than he was in 2023. We know Samuel is better than Sherfield. We know Moore is better than Harty. So yes, we haven't seen the group on the field yet...nothing is certain...but its more than reasonable to think our WR situation is better today than when Gabe Davis last walked off the field playing for the Bills.

He would be the lowest paid WR on the Bills if we signed him for what NE paid him. That is cheap, even if you think that is an over pay by NE...the actual cost of the contract is cheap and one we could have easily paid if they wanted to keep him.

That is what happens when you are having a discussion in an offseason heading into a season. Kind of the point of convo right? And its not all hope, we know enough about our guys returning and the ones coming in to get a reasonable picture of what they are capable of and which group has more perceived ability and overall talent across the whole room. How about we stay on topic...discussing the guys who actually played in 2023 (not Emmanuel Sanders and not 2022 Diggs). Can you just have a rational conversation ever without exaggeration and sensationalism? No one was saying Shakir was the next Diggs so stop. And we are talking about what WR room was better...the one that played in 2023 and the one we are set to play with in 2025. Bringing up what hope people had for Sherfield and Harty has nothing to do with the end known quantity of the 2023 group and comparing that to the 2025 group. So let me sum this up: You trashed everyone not named Diggs in 2023 in Davis, Shakir, Sherfield, and Harty...both now and all of 2023. And you know full well Sherfield and Harty couldn't even make this roster right now. And you said Davis is terrible and a failure as a WR2, so he couldn't even get his old job back here, if they even would bring him in, would be at best a WR4/5 today here. But somehow all that hate, all those scrubs as you called them...you still want to spend all this time to argue that the 2025 room isn't better? 3 of the 5 guys from 2023 couldn't get their rosters spots back from this group, and 2 of them would have no chance to even make the roster. Its all subjective...this group hasn't been on the field yet. But for me personally, there is 0% chance I would choose the 2023 WR room over the 2025 WR right now. A declining Diggs who didn't fit this offensive style here was NOT enough to carry that group and elevate that group above what I believe this group to believe. I like our chances to win a SB a lot more with this offense than that offense.

What? That is LITERALLY the point of how the WR room is BETTER now than when we had a guy who had no business being a WR2 starting as a WR2. How is this confusing for you? Not to mention, our WR4 and WR5 were journeyman backups in Sherfield and Harty where now we have Samuel and Moore, 2 guys who have done more and could compete to start still on other teams. So yeah...2025 WR room has 5 players on it that could start on other teams. 2023 team had 2 and Davis, who you said should never be a starting WR2. So how is the 2025 WR room not better than the 2023 group?

When looking at last year, I get that, and see where you are coming from in term of how many snaps Mack got. The one thing though that stands out to me, is if they wanted to run that same type of rotation again this year, they could have just kept Mack for cheap where Palmer would be more replacing the Ghost of Cooper's snaps. But despite being a favorite of the coaches, locker room, and even fans they elected to let Mack go to a division rival despite his low cost. IMHO, that to me suggests more they don't want to split the rotation so much and don't need a dirty work specialist as much because guys like Keon and Shakir are pretty good in their own right at it. I think their preference now based on their moves is to get their better guys more targets and more involved. Again, all for bringing him back, only talking what I think is more likely to be his role if they did, and whether or not he would take that say over another place where he has more potential opportunity for more snaps/targets.

I don't need to "think it thru"...you just missed the point. The point was its pretty clear the 2025 WR room > 2023 WR room. And the irony is that some of the people saying its not are the same people who want Davis as a WR5 who was then a WR2. Does that mean the WR room is where everyone wants it to be...no...but its pretty clear to say it hasn't improved the past 2 years isn't really a fair statement. Especially when the WR2 then is just a bench guy here now (if we even brought him back). And lets be real, Samuel/Moore >>>> Sherfield/Harty too and I am sure you would agree with that as well.

Nothing is impossible right, and everything is a fair debate, so no qualm with the debate at all. These are just my opinions on the matter. But here is why I don't think he has any realistic shot of moving up the depth chart without injuries helping if he did end up back here. And again, love him as a backup and depth, no qualms with him coming back. Through week 11 last year, Coleman was on pace as a rookie (while splitting time and not a full time starter in a spread the ball around offense which Gabe never really played in) for: 800-900 yards and 7+ TD's. Thats nearly as good as Gabes best season when Gabe is full time in a higher volume passing offense...additionally, Keon also averaged over 19 yards per catch too. Admittedly, he failed to find his groove and place in the offense after returning from injury, which had a lot to do with being a rookie, trying to be a team player without understanding how to also make his mark, etc. The more reasonable expectation is that the pre-injury is the real Keon and that with a year under his belt, we should see some step up from that guy this year in his 2nd year and in a more full time role. Keon also has a better down field receiving target opposite of him in Palmer (over Mack who was a dirty work player first and foremost than a frequented target) to also help open up more space for Keon as well as guys like Kincaid and Shakir. Palmer was signed for $12M to be the starter, I have a hard time seeing them go away from him before he takes one snap on his 3 year deal, especially with how high they are on him. And a strong case can be made that Palmer has better hands, a more robust route tree, is a better route runner, and better at beating coverage than Davis is. Also, Bills didn't want to pay Davis $13M for 3 years who they drafted and developed in a season they were already losing Diggs...but they had no problem paying Palmer $12M for 3 years which says a lot about who they are going to think is the better fit to start. Shakir is locked and loaded, no one touching him in any of these competitions. So I don't think its realistic to think Davis would compete for WR2 here...maybe they say its an open competition...but realistically, they are giving Keon and Palmer the first crack to be the starters ahead of him IMHO.

Be realistic about what is more likely to happen in terms of where he signs is not at all "rooting against it". To interpret it that way is bizarre to me. I mean I have said in every single post I am good with him coming back. Any of who? If you are talking about our WR room...I suggest you go watch Shakir highlights, I coincidentally did last night while putting my kids to sleep as it popped up in my youtube feed. Its sensational. And no one thinks poorly about Davis highlights...every player in NFL has a highlight real who plays any relevant minutes...but people have been concerned about his low lights.

Gabe Davis was our WR2 and now many of you want to bring him back as our WR5 (which I am fine with if they do). And yet somehow to many of those same people have been yelling non stop that we haven't improved the WR room the past 2 years even though our former WR2 would be a WR5 here now? Um...ok. lol

Im not arguing against bringing him in…Ive said since my first post I am good bringing him back, I only don’t like him as a starter to depend on, but depth I’m good with it. What I am saying is it makes little sense for Gabe, really no sense, if he’s got opportunities to be WR2/3 elsewhere because he’s not going to get much action here to reset his career and look for a next contract. Not to mention, any contract he gets here is also going to be much smaller and probably just 1 year. So as I said before, it feels unlikely for the main reason that we don’t have a consistent role for him here unless someone gets hurt. And at this stage of his career I would think he’s more focused on re-establishing himself again as more than just a depth player. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I would think would in the best interest of his career and future earnings. But if his market is cold, teams aren’t offering much better of an opportunity, then sure I can see coming back here being more attractive especially to try and get a ring (although Bills still have to be interested too). I just expect several teams to be interested that offer him a bigger chance to compete for a lot more targets.

A guy who’s already had injuries you see playing at a high level until he is 36? And at a position where 32 commonly begins the falling off a cliff portion of their careers? I wouldn’t bank on that. I’m all for adding him because all I care about right now is winning the Super Bowl this year. But to expect him to be a high end player for 6 more years is a low percentage bet. For context: His brother JJ Watt is 36 now and been retired since 2022 and only had one good season in his 30’s.

One - there is 0% chance to be WR3. Our top 3 guys are without question Keon, Palmer, and Shakir. Only injuries could change that. Two - We aren’t likely keeping 6 WR, and if we do it would be to keep a ST player only like Shenault as a returner. Especially with all the new guys brought in for the secondary and DL. So to bring him means at least Moore would be gone. He would be a backup here playing more as a WR4/5 with Samuel at best. And we still have Kincaid and the RBs (who all 3 RBs catch and made up 20% of Allen’s target last year). That means Davis would be coming here for a role that is destined for 10-30 catches at best without injuries creating more opportunities. Do you really think Davis is going to choose that minimal role over a team where he could compete to start or at least be an actual WR3? Seems less likely to me than him going to a team with a bigger need and potential role like Giants, Steelers, Pats, Ravens, Sea, SF, etc.

One thing that has stuck out to me here with this thread...too many people sleeping on Keon. I do get it to an extent, he regressed significantly returning from injury. But his pre injury performance is better than what people remember, ESPECIALLY when weighing the context of those games. Hmmmm...maybe this will lead to a "Calling it now" thread, the wheels are turning haha...stay tuned lol

I agree with everything you said, however, the bolded is where I just dont think it jives with what his real role would be here unless injuries come into play. I think he is looking at 20-30 rec at most here without injuries, not sure that gets him his next legit gig. Along with Pitt and NYG, off the top of my head I could also see SF, Rams, Sea, NE, Cle, Balt, LAC, Jets, etc all being potential teams with interest.

Says the guy who didn't read a post correctly that started the conversation. I didn't do any of those things at any point. You are gaslighting trying to bury you initial mistake, and like I said, straight from your playbook that makes having good conversations with you nearly impossible for almost the entirety of the posters here. This below here ⬇️ is maybe the first real attempt at a football discussion by you thus far. If you just stuck to this rather than all your gaslighting, things would be so much better around here Agreed. There is never one single, exact, specific thing that is 100% the reason for a games outcome. Anyone who believes that is delusional. BUT - There are definitely things that are bigger and more impactful factors in creating those results. No one, literally no one, is saying the WR room is the best and can't improve. The argument has been made that the most important factor is scoring points, and this team scored the most points and PPG in the AFC reg season and post season, it scored the most total points in the entire NFL in reg season and post season combined (yes more than the SB champ Eagles), and the 16th most all time. And as a bonus add on, no team has scored more points over the past 5 seasons than the Bills. And lets add even deeper context. Bengals have arguably the best 3 headed monster in football in Burrow, Chase, and Higgins. Burrow led the league in many passing categories and Chase in receiving, so statistically its not even arguable. Yet - they missed the playoffs - again. Bengals had to play for their life all season, all 17 games, and just about every quarter of football. Bills set an NFL record for most wins by 20+ points, took whole quarters and some halves essentially to grind clock and sat Allen week 17. Yet Bills - with inferior WR's, lesser passing stats, less quarters and games playing all out, etc STILL scored MORE points. On the other side of the field, our defense was the bottom of the league in 3rd down conversions and also 1st downs allowed. The only saving thing for the D was turnovers, an unsustainable stat that lacks consistency. So while everyone, including myself, agrees that the WR lacks "difference making talent" - this offense isn't built to need that and our DL was the weaker performing unit last year. Agreed Agreed Cooper and Hollins combine for 4.3 receptions a game here. Palmer alone is adequate to replace that, and he brings more and is more effective down field than either The Ghost of Cooper was and Mack the Block Hollins was. And it isn't just Palmer and Moore replacing Cooper and Hollins...its Keon as well. He won't be splitting time this year, has a year under his belt, and will be a bigger part of the offense. Not to mention both Samuel and Kincaid are coming in healthy, where like it or not, injuries impacted their 2024 seasons where they both played hurt most the season. And despite what I said about about Keon and Kincaid, I do agree they need to take another step forward this year. But you see...that is the BIG difference in being the GM and being a fan who wants to rant online about decisions. The GM and coaching staff invested in those guys and BELIEVE in those guys. They are the ones who see them everyday, coach them, and know more about them than any of us do. So its both unrealistic and a waste of time to sit back and expect them to just throw in the towel on Keon or Kincaid because you specifically think they were terrible. Keon and Kincaid both know they have things to work on, the coaches know that, the GM knows...but they also see enough to where they are continuing to build with them and around them as they see them as ascending players. And at the end of the day...that is the difference. And coming off a season where the offense was 16th most points and 33rd most PPG all time, its hard to fault them for having confidence in the guys they have and the guys they brought in to help fill roles where we were lacking. Make no mistake about it...Beane is never done...if he sees a WR available he has shown he will go get him even in season. If this group is a problem, WR will be addressed significantly next offseason. But 2024, the defense was much more the anchor on this teams success and they went out and did something about it. And the most help they can give Josh is not consistently putting pressure on Josh and the offense to be perfect and rack the points up because the D cant get off the field on 3rd down. We will see if it works.

I agree with you on TJ Sanders, I’m really excited to see him in this defense. That being said, I don’t know that TJ Sanders would be a “surprise” per the main subject of the thread. Not only did we move up in the 2nd to get him, but he was a guy Beane said he was strongly considering taking potentially in the first if Hairston was gone to Washington the pick before us who also had him in a visit. Basically he was 2nd BPA on our board at pick 30 behind Hairston. So I don’t think him and Hairston would really count as “surprises” if they come in and make impacts as rookies which is why I didn’t list either. But as far as what you said about Sanders, I totally agree with, I think this guy is gonna be the real deal.

Not sure I can see how we could be involved in a trade for TJ at this point. Would I love TJ Watt here on a big SB push this season, certainly. But with all the guys we have now, I can't see Beane parting with the draft capital and then also the cap space to make this acquisition. I am all for finding a way to get TJ, just not really sure its something that would likely happen.

Hollins snaps are already replaced between Palmer and more snaps for Keon. Palmer is already better IMO than Davis in terms of receiving (better hands, better routes, bigger route tree, better separation) and Keon is going to be given every chance to be WR1 this year. So this isn't is he a better WR down field than Hollins (and he is, but I don't think its by as much as people think), its where does he fit in the WR room right now. Keon, Shakir, Palmer, Samuel are not going anywhere and that makes Davis essentially WR4/5 here depending on how they use Samuel and assuming they would cut Moore (if only 5 are kept). If they keep Moore, now you got Davis and Moore battling for first guy off the deep bench, unless Samuel falters and one of them over take his expected role this year. Im not against Davis coming back by any means (just don't like him as a starting WR2), he is an excellent dirty work guy and has downfield value even though his awareness, hands, and route tree are all not his strong suits. But looking at it from Davis point of view, he has no role here to be an involved WR in the passing game unless injuries were to make it possible. I don't think he is looking to go somewhere where his primary use is blocking and he gets some occassional targets as a depth WR. Places like the Steelers, Giants, and a few other teams offer more opportunities for actual targets.

IMHO he has no role here, I personally doubt we keep more than 5 WRs as it is with all the bodies we have in the secondary and DL now. So, I can’t see him coming back unless he’s willing to do it as a backup who doesn't get many snaps/targets. I would think he wants a place where he will get more opportunities than what the Bills WR room offers him right now. I wouldn't be against bringing him back as depth, but I just think he is going to prioritize a place where he can at least compete to start. I wouldn't be against bringing him back as depth, but I just think there are better opportunities for him at this point in his career. I will honestly be shocked if he isn’t a Steeler or Giant before the end of this week. They both wake way too much sense right now

Mic drop. Well played. You win the internet today sir 🤣

I get what you are saying, and I’m not against drafting WRs, as I said I was beating the Donte Thornton drum all offseason. But…I mean I think you can make a case that our room is currently cheap and talented currently. Keon is a young ascending WR who showed promise before the injury…Shakir is still probably not peaked and already a very good player who’s on a bargain of an extension. Palmer brings a lot of what we needed and didn’t break the bank…Samuel and Moore round out 4th and 5th spots fairly cheap and are guys who could start on other teams at end of our bench. The other key receiving weapons also have to be factored into the overall picture where Kincaid, also cheap and is ascending still, and we have 3 RBs who are all dangerous as pass catchers. I don’t know that adding some day 3 WR in lieu of Moore after the draft makes that room look any better on paper or “more talented” personally. It gives maybe more “upside potential” given that rookie could surprise and breakout into a better player than say some of the 5 WRs we currently have, but there is no way to know that before they step on a field. I liked Royals and thought he could be a target for us day 3, but I didn’t go into the draft or leave the draft thinking any of those WR guys were must get guys, where passing on them could be a huge mistake either. Odds are, especially in this weaker class, they aren’t going to be anything better than we already have, if even that. As with any draft, any one of them could break out and be a good to great player, but odds are not great in general before you factor in this wasn’t a great class overall. After watching embedded episode 2, it was clear the guys we took instead were all top of the board “go get” guys they loved. Doesn’t mean that 3 years from now their choices will be proven correct by any means, but it does mean they didn’t intentionally pass on any of those day 3 WRs and instead took guys who were not just the top of their board, but guys who really stuck for them. And for me, that’s all I want my GM to do, don’t reach and take the guys they graded to be the best player available. I think, and Beane has said exactly this too (and I believe him), this was just a function of where the draft was strong at and weak at. Beane isn’t done at WR, and he won’t be heading into next year either. If he sees a chance to add one that can help, he’s proven he will do it even during the season. And next year, if this group is weak this year, I think you will see Beane aggressive at adding what we need, especially after we really rebuilt our D this offseason overall. I do still wish we landed Donte Thornton though

Except literally all of this is nonsense and wreaks of your typical desperation after being wrong about something…so theres that too lmao. 🤡 show continues. Even after all this time the severity of your little man complex never ceases to amaze ✌️