Alphadawg7

Thats a fact. And furthermore, that wasn't seen as a strong QB class either and the 2018 one was already being predicted to be one of the best classes in a decade or more potentially. So hard to fault a team about to fire their GM and start a full rebuild the next year under that GM for passing on taking a QB in a weaker draft when we have an opportunity to have a new regime evaluate a better class a whole season armed with multiple first round picks to go get they guy we deem we want.

He has looked good, granted against lower level competition. He has had no reps with the ones, specifically Allen, that I have seen or heard yet (unless I missed something more recent), so for him to get a chance to compete to start right now would take an injury situation to make that happen. The Center and QB need time together, its a must. I think he is our future starting center, and I loved the pick and I still love the pick. But, without reps with Allen, I just don't think he has any chance to start any time soon without injuries coming into play.

Very few people wanted Mahomes at 10 that draft around here, so lets not pretend he was the obvious pick and we passed. In fact, most people here had Trubisky as the top QB or Watson. And almost everyone wanted to take Watson over Mahomes if we had gone QB at that time. Araiza, there was nothing the Bills could do there, they had to make that move, and they were dragged through the mud by so many people here and in the media for not doing it "sooner". And Worthy...KC is a great fit in KC where he gets to be a 3rd or 4th option behind Kelce, Rice, and Hollywood. But Bills already had their fill of smaller WR's, they needed a bigger outside target who can be more physical as we have not been the more physical team in our playoff exits. Roles and situations are a big part of a players fit and success/failure in the NFL. Bills needed an outside guy that isn't getting blown up every time he is jammed at the LOS.

I think hes been doing fine...preseason week 1 there were timing issues all over the OL, kinks to be worked out, mostly in run packages. But this week it was a strong bounce back, although O'Cyrus didn't have a great game again, but I am not too worried about him as they settle in.

Offense - Quarterbacks - Is it even worth wasting time writing something? Mitch sucks...and if you thought he sucked watching the game, the All-22 is going to just make you more disgusted. Mitch has no vision, he had opportunities all over the field all game where he either didn't see or didn't see that they were coming open. I was irritated during the live game and I was even more frustrated seeing it in deeper detail. He was holding the ball too long a lot, locking on to guys, seemingly looking at guys coming open and frustratingly not throwing them the ball, and just made a lot of poor throws and decisions. 3 plays - A 1st down opportunity, a TD opportunity, and a turnover highlight just how bad he was. I already mentioned them in another thread, but now seeing it on All-22 I am going to cover them again as it just confirmed what I had previously said. 1st Down Opp - Mitch has Coleman run a great route and get separation for an easy catch and YAC and looks to be right in Mitch's vision...doesn't see him. Hollins runs a curl and is standing wide open a couple yards shy of the first down marker where a quick throw would give him a chance to turn and get the first. Mitch just holds the ball for literally no reason...and despite staring at Hollins, doesn't throw it and keeps holding it until he finally fires it late which Hollins makes the now contested catch but well short of a first down. TD Opp - Regardless of anyones position on whether Keon should have or shouldn't have caught that pass, it was a beautiful route that was wasted by a lame duck wobbly throw well out in front and putting Keon in danger. There is no excuse for this poor of a pass this short on a simple slant. As far as Keon goes, it wasn't a very catchable ball. His arms are fully extended but it still hits his finger tips only and the ball is off axis wobbly, making that a very low percentage reception in general and the only reason he got his finger tips on it was his length, it wouldn't have even touched the hands of some of our other WR's. Interception - This was worse on the All-22 than even live. What is frustrating, as once again, he has a WR coming open early for a YAC opportunity in Hollins right over the middle, right where Mitch's eyes are...doesn't seem to even see him again. And once again he holds the ball forever and then panic throws to Morris who is not remotely open, there was nothing at all to entice a reasonable QB to make this throw, then the throw was worse than the decision. Receivers - Not going to spend a lot of time here with no Allen because Mitch was so bad. However, couple of notes: Coleman made some nice plays this game, but the obvious most talked about one is the TD attempt. I don't care what anyone says, 2 things are clear as day on the All-22: 1 - It was an excellent route and again got separation, which he did on several pass plays this game where Mitch just didn't look his way. That was a TD route with a well placed ball. Keon has excellent hands, even if you think it was a "drop", I think we can all agree that his hands are of no ones concern. The question has been can he win routes and give a good target to the QB, and he did that again like he did on his 3rd target in the Bears game where Mitch threw a horrible ball and wasted the rep making the ball nearly uncatchable. 2 - The ball was off his finger tips, and it was rotating as a wobbly duck. I don't know how many people here have played football and caught passes, but that is a low percentage situation. The vast majority of the fault for this incompletion lies with Mitch. Overall group of the top end guys - Our guys at the top end of our depth chart continue to show well on film and winning routes, but Mitch has just shown very poor vision these first 2 games, but our guys were getting open and separation. Guys fighting for a spot - Nothing positive to take away here, its a concern. MVS sucks, and now may have an injury, although seems like he escaped a long term neck injury as tests came back negative. I think its possible we see Beane make a move here for the back end of the depth chart if MVS is out long enough to put week 1 in question. Running Backs - Wow, what a turn around. I wrote in my week 1 All-22 review that I was NOT worried about the OL because the pass pro was good and the run game issues were all correctable and just looked like guys not yet in sync and having timing issues. Then they come out this week and showed a nice turn around and give our backs a chance out there to make some runs. Cook had a nice bounce back, but he was overshadowed by Ray Davis. He was my RB3 in the draft and I loved the pick, and this kid just continues to impress. He is going to play a lot more than I think people thought when we drafted him. I love how he hits the hole, he has excellent acceleration so he his playing decisive and hitting the hole both quickly and with aggression. And he is already our best pass catcher out of the backfield IMHO. Evans and Gore - Both of these guys impressed. Very good game by them, but I don't know if there is a path to the roster if we keep Cook, Davis, and Ty...be interesting to see if we keep 4...we did it in the past, but one of them was always Taiwan who was kept as a ST ace rather than a RB. Offensive Line - Great bounce back game. I will say though O'Cyrus did not have his best game, but still not worried overall about him after his play last year, but hope we see him start to get the rust off next week as he has not had a good first 2 pre-season games. Defense - I am running out of time this morning, so going to summarize the D has a whole and then talk about a few guys that deserve more discussion. Overall this was a very strong showing by the defense especially coming into the game without Milano and then no Bernard either. Some good games by several players, but the stars of the show were our rookies: Dorian - Only guy on my list that isn't a rookie, but he has the biggest spot light on him coming into the game. Dorian has flashed potential, but there have been concerns about him improving in coverage. And while there is still work to do there, overall, his pretty good in coverage and only noted one bad play in pass coverage. Overall, he had a good game, and good to see him step up in the wake of Milano injury and keep building on his development. Anderseen - What can I say that hasn't already been said? I was more impressed with him on the All-22 than I was in the game. What impressed me the most was his intstincts and ability to shed blocks to get to the ball. Its one game, but this kid played his tail off like he was an early draft pick. Its not often when I come away excited to see a UDFA rookie play again next week. Solomon - He continues to impress me, and I was even more impressed this week than I was last week. Its hard to get to high on guys in preseason, like even Anderseen above, but his ability to rush and also defend the run has been great to see and if he keeps it up, I think he is trending to being a regular in the DE rotation. Hardy - I said in shout box, live in game thread, and the post game thread...Hardy is making this team as a CORNERBACK. Will he also return kicks, quite possibly, but he isn't going to be kept just on return ability, and if Hamler or someone else gets named returner, he will still make this roster. He was all over the field yesterday and his ability on the outside has been surprisingly good. And he was out there against their starting outside WR's and holding his own despite his NCB size. He has become one of my favorite surprises of camp, especially since cornerback depth has been a major concern of mine entering camp. Overall, I thought the All-22 was actually a lot of positives with few negatives. HOWEVER...the few negatives are big and vastly on the QB's...we have a backup QB problem right now. Mitch looks lost and plays like someone who has lost his confidence. And he wasn't a good enough QB to begin with to be able to play through some shaken confidence. If Allen goes down for a long period of time, the season is over no matter the backup QB most likely. But I am more concerned about Allen leaving a game early and still needing to win that game...or maybe missing a game or two...because in a very TOUGH AFC, 1 game can be the difference of making or missing the playoffs. And nothing Mitch has done in camp or these first 2 pre-season games gives me any confidence he can come into a game or start a game and feel like we are going to win.

Nothing against Cook, but Diggs (a higher tier player) just went for a day 2 pick…if you can get a day 2 pick for an undersized RB with ball security issues you do it. Id take that day 2 pick especially knowing he won’t likely get a 2nd contract and you can go sign a FA to backup Davis. Next year we would have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds plus out 3rd and 3 fourth rounders. Not to mention good cap space. We would be heavily armed to make significant moves and set this team up for next 5 years.

This is just incorrect. The ball only hit his finger tips and was a wobbly duck. That is going to not be caught a lot more than it is going to be caught in the NFL. And I don’t know what game you are watching because I saw him get open several times and Mitch not look his way. I watched the All-22 last week and he didn't see separation issues either.

I agree with almost all your points, including the deeper WR spots competing behind Hollins. But I am not quite sure how anyone can say there wasn’t a ton of separation by the starters when they were coming open all game and Mitch either didn’t even look their way, held the ball forever, threw instead to someone not open, threw a late pass, or just flat out threw a bad pass. I can name many examples, but here are a few that includes what should have been a first down…should have been a TD…should have been a big competition instead or an INT. On a completion to Hollins, Coleman gets wide open for an easy catch with RAC potential for a first down right in front of Mitch. Instead Mitch held the ball an eternity before finally throwing a late pass to Hollins who also had been open a while before getting him the ball late. Hollins makes the catch short of the first down with no chance to advance the ball. On the should be TD pass to Coleman…replay shows Coleman fully extended but the pass was wobbly and just out of reach of his finger tips. Coleman ran an excellent route that is a TD with Allen at QB that was wasted by Mitch…again just like last week. On the interception, Hollins ran a great route and beat his man for a perfect window for a strike and big YAC yardage with a well placed ball, and literally right in front of Mitch. Yet Mitch holds the ball too long and then throws an atrocious ball again to Morris (who feels like Morris paid Mitch to keep throwing him the ball as he made several bad choices over guys wide open elsewhere) that is so bad it’s a gift interception. I watched Coleman, Shakir, Hollins, Knox etc win on routes with separation for should be passes to them and Mitch either didn’t even look at them or did something else totally stupid. Im not saying that yesterday answered any questions, especially with such poor QB play, but there were a lot of positives from them (wasted and ruined by poor QB play) and nothing about yesterdays game confirms or raises concerns. I do very much agree that the WR spots behind those first 4 guys is a concern right now. MVS already sucks, and now may be lost to injury and Shavers hasn’t shined yet like we have heard about from practices. Hamler isn’t doing enough to win a job either IMHO. IMHO, I think they may be looking to add a WR this week to come in and compete as a speed guy in the 5th spot. I am not sure who is out there, but I wouldn’t at all be surprised if we see a move this week of some sort.

Hardy is gonna make this team as a DB regardless if he wins the returner job IMHO. He’s really impressed me 2 weeks in a row.

Hardy is gonna make this team as a DB regardless if he’s the returner

it was a wobbly pass just out of reach. Terrible throw to waste a should be TD

Milton was 2-10 today. I don’t know he’s any better

Mitch sucks. Hollins wide open for catch and run right in front of you and you throw that crap pass? Lol

Mitch blows. On that pass to Hollins where he took forever to throw him the ball Coleman was wide open for almost the entirety of the play. Like how do you not see him. Instead he held the ball forever and made that late throw to Hollins.

Can one be that high and still so irritable? Lol

You sir win the internet today. Nice work

My ceiling cap comment was based on our previous discussions, not on what you said about rookie expectations, which I agree with you on. And as I just mentioned above and in my previous comment, I don't disagree with you that its unrealistic to expect him to do those things consistently early as I think that is unrealistic for any rookie IMHO. But I do think Keon is in a good situation where he is not going to need to emerge as a primary target early either with guys around him like Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel, etc who can make plays and will all see healthy target shares as well taking pressure of Keon as he develops further throughout the season.

If Keon and Rice played in the same role in terms of target share, yes I believe he has the potential to put up that kind of season or even better with Josh Allen. But Keon and Rice's situations are quite different. KC's WR room outside Rice was about as bad as it gets. So Rice became WR1 amongst the WR room in terms of targets really out of need with how bad Skyy, Toney, and MVS were faltering. Bills are not in that situation (barring injuries of course). Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel will all see a healthy amount of targets, not to mention probably 100 targets for our RB's and guys like Knox and Hollins that will see some too. So, my opinion is that Keon as a rookie finishes the season probably 3rd in targets with a range of 750-850 yards and 7+ TD's. Now if the chemistry him and Allen have shown in camp carries over into the early parts of the regular season and things start clicking early, he has the potential to surpass that prediction. But, I am not counting on that, and I expect a heavier dose of Kincaid, Shakir, and Samuel early in the season to not put too much pressure on Keon early as he learns and adjusts to the NFL.

I didn't compare him as a player to Rice, I just said Keon doesn't have to open week 1 as "the guy" and can grow into a bigger role as the season goes on. I am confident the Bills did not draft him thinking his ability to get open is as limited as you and Marino are stating, so right away I know the Bills scouts and Beane likely don't agree with this assessment, and that is even further strengthened if you listen to Beane discuss Keon and what they liked about him. But, like anything else, they are just opinions until we see it on the field too, so doesn't make anyone right or wrong right now. With the bolded above, I don't agree that its "unrealistic" at this stage because he is already doing it against out DB's. If you want to say it's unrealistic for him to do it with a high frequency at this stage, then I would agree with that because that is true for most rookies. And that goes back to my point you responded to, he doesn't need to come out the gate as a Bonafide WR1 in this offense, he can grow and develop into that role as continues to develop as a player. But to say it's unrealistic for him to do it all is just not something I can agree with as I have already seen him do it. We will see...and I appreciate your perspective even if I am not aligned with it. I just think you are Marino are prematurely capping his ceiling more than you should be at this stage. He doesn't have to have GOAT potential to be a great WR for us either.

I don't disagree with you on the bolded...but I think its fair to say this is also true for all rookie WR's coming into the league where winning a route isn't going to be the same as winning a route in College. Granted, for some this may be an easier transition and some may take more time...but none the less, that is just part of being a rookie. I agree he is never going to be Stefon Diggs as a route runner, but that is because not only is Diggs amongst the best of his era, they are also completely different players. Mike Evans, DeAndre Hopkins, Davante Adams...these guys don't win routes the same way Diggs does either, different style of players. I agree, its not reasonable to expect Keon, or any rookie for that matter, to learn the nuanced skills to consistently get open over night. And the good news is we don't have to lean on him early. As good as Keon's camp has been, Kincaid and Shakirs has been even better with reports consistently coming out that they catch everything and are always open. Samuel as well has nothing but positive buzz coming out. The philosophy of this offense, especially early in the season, is that they won't need to lean heavy on any one person and will spread the targets out. That will take pressure of Keon having to be "the guy" so to speak early. And look at someone like Rashee Rice...he didn't come out the gate as the WR1...he was averaging only 34 yards a game through 5 games before his role started to increase to where he finished as the WR1 by seasons end. I will say this about Keon...I said it leading up to the draft and I have said since we drafted him. I feel like Keon is one of the most ready to play of all the WR's taken this year both mentally and physically. Some are gonna disagree with that, which is fine, but based on what I saw at both his stops in college, how he prepares for the game, his awareness on the field, his basketball background lending to his body control, and his excellent athleticism...I honestly feel like you would be hard pressed to find another WR we could have taken who is more ready to play at Keons spot than Keon. And the coaches and Allen have been echoing the same thing all camp.

Lol...I have never refused to answer any question and have answered that question already many times. I am not asking you to play a game. YOU responded to ME. So again...which WR group do you think is better...the 2023 top 4 guys of Rice, Toney, MVS, Watson...or the 2024 group of Shakir, Samuel, Keon, and Hollins? Which do you think is better and which would you want to see on the field this year for the Bills?

I know you do and are, and hey, he is a rookie, there will be moments other get the best of him and things he needs to work on. But counter point to this: One, the reports you are mentioning are far fewer than the ones where he has been excelling. You can't expect the rookie to be perfect on every play and every route, including against one of the best corners in the league in Chicago game. Second, those reports are not as pessimistic as they seemed either. Lets go through both: Chicago game - I watched the All-22 film on this game, he had a strong game overall. He ran 3 routes - and he ran a lot of clear outs where he did a great job selling the route and pulling the coverage successfully. First target was excellent, his hinge route was perfectly executed and gained 5 yards of separation and allowed for the easy catch and turn up field for a first down. Second target - His only real bad rep of the game, he wasn't able to fight through the contact and make a clean cut. He did however have positives on this play where he bailed out Mitch who foolishly still forced the ball to him and then compounded that with a horrific pass. Coleman had the heads up to make a good defensive play on the ball to save the turnover. How many times have we watched Davis just allow a turnover on plays like this...was good play and awareness by the kid even though he didn't run the route he wanted. Third target - The only reason this wasn't PI was because Mitch threw such a bad pass. Keon gets position on the DB and turns inside, just like the route is designed to do. The DB has one hand on Keons chest and tugs on the jersey with his other hand on the cut. Keon still gets position on him to where if Allen was the QB and throws a good ball its an easy TD or easy PI flag because the defender then came over the back of Keon holding him down from jumping to get to Mitchs bad pass when the ball was still 2 yards from reaching Keon. Keon was good on this route, the DB escaped a flag or a TD because Mitch threw an awful ball. Pittsburgh practice There was one report that came out that said he didn't get separation on his first 2 routes...then the same tweet was updated that on the very next play Keon torched the DB for a TD. Too much is being made of the fact on the first 2 routes he didn't win the routes. He adjusted and then burned them for a TD. I am not saying the kid is a lock...but the facts are that the vast majority of reports coming out have not only been positive, but very positive. He isn't going to win 100% of the time, nobody does. But what you want to see is a lot more positive coming out than negative, and that is certainly true on Keon thus far. And when the games get real come week 1, I am sure there will be even more ups and downs like most rookies experience adjusting to playing real NFL games.

What are you talking about. lol... You still didn't answer my direct question.

The only thing I was certain of was that you would not answer the question.

Fair question...that is because he wasn't one of the top 4 entering the season, I was comparing the top 4 to start our season and who they had last year. I was comparing apples to apples...like maybe MVS, Shavers or Shorter by years end winds up being 3rd or 4th in targets in the WR room, we don't really know. What we know is the top 4 guys are looking like Shakir, Keon, Samuel, and Hollins right now. So was comparing who we are entering the season with to who the Chiefs entered the season with last year as their top 4 guys. But, we can add in Watson and drop Skyy even though Skyy was a 2nd round pick and expected to be the leading WR going into last season. So the question would then be: A - Rice, Watson, MVS and Toney B - Shakir, Keon, Samuel, Hollins IMHO, doesn't change a whole lot especially given Watson has averaged just 206 yards a season for his 5 year career playing with Brady and Mahomes.