Alphadawg7

You bring up some good points here as well, and I understand how you are getting to these thoughts. When I look at what you are presenting, which is data as a whole (as in whole 10 games of Dorsey in 2023, whole season in 2022, and Brady's whole 7 games) respectfully what I think is happening is that the data without the context of the individual games is leading you to a false positive conclusion to a degree. And by false positive, I mean that there was the assumption of another influence/force/etc in play for the reason for the lower rush attempts specifically in the 10 Dorsey games in 2023...in this case, that would be McDermott as you have mentioned. So let me explain further: Josh only averaged 4.4 YPC rushing under Brady. In fact, the only game he rushed for more than 4.5 yards was the Eagle game. A game where we were in a must win against what was then the #1 seed in the NFC and went to overtime. And quite honestly, a bad interception by Josh that game is why we also lost. Josh took off running more in that game trying to win. Its not that Josh was used as a runner so much more under Brady, its that Brady utilized Josh better in short yardage situations picking up key 3rd downs with sneaks or TD conversions. There were only 3 games where Josh had noticeably more attempts than under Dorsey...The Chiefs game (a must win agiainst the SB Champs), Patriots week 17 where 10 of his 11 carries only went for only 25 yards, and the final must win game against the Dolphins with the 2 seed and Divisional Title on the line. Dorseys 3 biggest offensive outputs of the season were weeks 2, 3, and 4 where Josh only had a combined 10 carries across those 3 games because did not need to run in those blowout wins, everything was working in the pass game. When you look at the final 4 games before Dorsey was fired, Josh averaged 6.5 carries per game, not much difference than Bradys 7 game average. In our 5 losses under Dorsey in 2023 Josh averaged 6 carries per game as well. So while you are not wrong by any means on identifying the lower rush attempts across 10 games for Dorsey in 2023, a big part of that is because in 3 blow out wins Josh did not need to run and only had 3 carries per game average. And while you are also not wrong about Josh averaging more carries under Brady, a big part of that were because of a couple big must win games and a more strategic use of Josh to convert down and short. I do not think the reason we didn't win those 5 games was because Josh didn't average the 1 more carry per game to match what he averaged during Brady's 7 game stretch where we went 6-1. For me...the context of the games tells me that the discrepancy likely has a lot more to do with game flow and how the OC called the games in certain situations, how Josh audibles at the line or improvised live in games in key moments than any outside force coming in with a heavy influence like McD. When I take a step further back, I look at our history under McD. He has consistently discussed not wanting to change Josh or limit his game. He, as well as Beane, Josh himself, and whoever the OC is have all had the same consistent message to take less damage out there and get out of bounds more and slide more. Then you look at the reluctancy of Dorsey to use Cook more and most importantly get Shakir involved more, the forcing of the ball to Diggs, stupid play calls in critical moments, etc and suddenly there are a lot more things that feel like are the culprit to our offensive struggles that have nothing to do with McD or Josh as a runner. So respectfully, I still disagree that I think McD had restricted Dorsey from using Josh at all as a runner. I don't think the data suggests that at all when you take a closer look and factor in game flow, magnitude of the games, how Josh was used as a runner in those moments, etc. IMHO it was Dorsey who just wasn't able to get himself out of a skid as defenses figured out how to disrupt his offense. The way he called games felt like he was stubbornly sticking to the pre-game script rather than making adjustments and just had no answers for what he was seeing out there. His refusal to recognize the talent on the roster and use it better was not only an issue this year, but also in 2022. And that was exactly what I saw on the field every week when I watched the games. Dorseys tenure was the most I ever screamed at my TV during games about an OC since Hackett was here.

Yeah I agree, this is nothing

Are these your posts below or did someone ghostwrite them? Is your message not that you think McD was interfering with Dorsey? Because that is what you have stated quite clearly many times here. So what am I comprehending so poorly? I don't even know what you expect anyone to take from your posts other than you believe McD was interfering with Dorsey and his offense. If that is not your stance...then woof...I don't even know what to say because its been your entire message the whole thread.

Dude...is your name @DabillsDaBillsDaBills because that is who I was replying to and talking to about something he politely sent to me. Maybe read before responding because this post had nothing to with you.

Thats fair, so lets look at the full context to answer your question: They have been wanting Josh to run less for 5 years now, it wasn't some sudden change only under Dorsey. Even when Daboll was here, every offseason the discussion was to have Josh take less hits to protect their quarter of a billion dollar investment. Allen goes down, so does the whole team. When Brady took over we were essentially in a must win situation almost every week, and certainly after the Eagles loss. So I think its pretty reasonable to see an increase in Josh doing everything he can to win in must win situations. Brady used Allen's legs MUCH more strategically than Dorsey ever did. There is no question what so ever that McD, Beane, and whoever the OC is would prefer Josh to take less punishment and have to run and take hits so much. Josh himself said he doesn't like to run or want to run if he doesn't have to, but we also know Josh will leave it all out there on every play in key moments and games. But no, I do not at all think McD came in and told Dorsey that you have to keep Allen from running. McD does not want to take that out of Allens game, and has spoken about that and how they "have to let Josh be Josh" and play free out there. What he really wants is Allen to take less hits/punishment...he wants him to not fight for meaningless or unnecessary few extra yards where he takes big hits instead of sliding or getting out of bounds. McD has talked many times about what a weapon it is to have a QB like Josh who can make those kinds of plays with his legs, pick up the 3rd and 1, 4th and 1 with such a high degree of success.

Lol...I have repeatedly now said that you blame Dorseys failures on some alleged McD interference you insist was happening (despite any evidence, proof, facts, film supporting it, etc)...you then say that is not what you said...BUT then proceed to give another example showing that is exactly what you said. Feel like I am some dude on a prank show who hasn't figured out he is on a prank show yet.

Daboll is a great example...I think what made Daboll look so good was that Allen had so many people doubting him becoming anything close to what he became, so the assumption is that Daboll is a genius when Allen proved to be elite. And quite honestly, Daboll was great for Allen, they did have a great relationship. But Allens biggest developments and mechanic improvements came in the offseason with Palmer and all the tech and specialists he worked with every year to completely revamp his mechanics. So I think Allen would have still become Allen with or without Daboll. As great as Daboll was in some cases, he was also a guy with his own issues as an OC. He would out think himself a lot, 3rd and short lets throw a 20 yard wheel route to a FB kind of thing. It was like he wanted to be seen more as a mad genius at times rather than make the sound decision on a key play. He was also allergic to running the football, and he had his own offensive skids in his tenure here that were turned around once he finally started getting the run game with Devin more involved like in 2021 at halftime in the Bucs game and for the rest of the season. He did it again against us this season. He is on the goal line to win the game with one final play with Tyrod (his backup QB). Instead of handing the ball to his best player in Barkley or trying to run it in with Tyrod (a good runner at QB), he has Tyrod (a short and below average passer) drop back and attempt a pass into the crowded middle to one of the worst collections of receiving weapons in the NFL for an incomplete pass. How do you even make that decision? At the very least, roll Taylor out so he can have the option of running it in if the pass isn't there...or just give it to your best player Barkley to due what you pay him to do. For all Daboll does well, he can't shake this tendency to out Daboll himself in some key situations...and he certainly made a head scratching call that helped us get a win we didn't deserve.

LOL, I am not emotionally involved, I am having a discussion. I have no idea how I am putting words in your mouth. If what I wrote is not what you are saying, then I think you need to revisit your own posts because I do not know how else to interpret what you have said. I am not setting anything up. You have said nothing outside of passing the blame for the offensive woes onto McD instead of Dorsey. You literally just gave @NewEraan example of a Dad teaching a son to drive, telling son close his eyes, and son crashes then blaming the son. That is VERBATIM an example of YOUR stance that McD interfered with Dorsey and his offense, the entire basis of your entire argument in this thread. So how on earth am I getting that wrong? How am I putting words in your mouth? I have not intentionally twisted or changed anything you said, I am responding to your exact comments. If your stance is NOT that Dorsey's struggles were based on McD interfering, then state that now and state what your actual point is. Because everything you have said thus far has strongly communicated that to be your stance.

That is a good point, and yeah I can see that. I was more just saying that McD is either more generalized when he speaks or specific, and when he is specific he has shown he means what he says. For example...he could "Josh and the ones will start and we will how it goes for how long they are out there" vs saying they will play most the first quarter. When he gives a more direct answer, its usually what he intends. But several of you made some good points where I can easily see that change in game and minimize the risk if the offense looks sharp and maybe doesn't go back out after a great series. Which honestly is probably what should happen too. I do agree with the decision to play them and get them some reps, we got young guys and a whole new offense to go along with new weapons, they need to get the feel of the timing in live games.

Ok...so in your mind McD mettled into the 2nd highest scoring offense over the past 4 years to slow it down and score less and that is why Dorsey sucked. Got it. Its astonishing that in your mind that is somehow "fact" despite its outrageously ridiculous, has literally zero supporting evidence of any kind, not even on film, and 100% just an opinion. I will add you have provided literally no facts, evidence, proof, or reasonable logic of any kind to support this theory. You just keep saying it as if it is fact. Meanwhile...I am somehow unreasonable for stating that Dorsey wasn't working here despite him getting fired, people who know football discussing issues with Dorseys offense for weeks prior to firing, and the MASSIVE improvement in scoring, wins, and team morale from the moment he was gone. Got it. I guess I am just crazy

Exactly...and quite honestly, when you have Josh Allen just about any OC is going to be able to find some success. But once teams figure out how to disrupt that offense it becomes how that OC can answer those challenges and adjust. The issue was though that his body of work had its own issues in 2022 despite some of the successes too. Coming into 2023 Dorsey was very much still a question mark given he was a first time OC, someone that needed to show further growth and that he was going to continue to evolve and improve. Then you have the factor of being a team with Super Bowl expectations, an elite QB, a team who had been an offensive powerhouse as the 2nd highest scoring team since Allens emergence. So I personally don't think he "deserved more time to fix", and I think you don't either. The growth wasn't there, and in fact, we were seeing regression and for a sustained period of time that almost cost us the season. IMHO you just can't justify sticking with him over a 6 game skid against that low level of competition like that while all hope for the season fades. And our offense was healthy with no significant injuries either. I would argue personally he got too much time, I thought he should have been fired after the Giants game. In fact, the first thing I said to my wife when Daboll blew that game on the goal line at the end was that was the worst outcome for us because it likely means Dorsey isn't going to get fired that week. Had we lost that game as we should have on that last play, I think there would have been a strong chance he would have been fired that week.

Drives me nuts when people always cite the Saints as "proof" the cap isn't real when their cap issues have been a major problem. People only see the person they signed and ignore all the people they lost and more holes they created elsewhere as a result not only that year, but in the coming seasons as well. Saints are the poster child of exactly how NOT to manage a cap. And its why they have stunk for so long and even in the Brees era missed the playoffs several times. If Beane managed the cap the way the Saints do, I would be begging for him to get fired.

Yeah, I think that is the case with him in terms of how hot his seat is. Teams figured out how to slow them down and their defense has not been good and likely not going to be much better this year either. Wouldn't surprise me if that is why they went after Saquan hoping he has the ability to be a difference maker on that offense. A kind of a go big or go home move for them after they paid all that money to their receivers, Hurts, etc. I mean why not push all the chips in if they are facing a potential firing if they don't make a deep run. I don't know if it will work or not, but it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I still think their defense is going to be an achilles heal though and not sure they have done enough for them to go far enough to save his job.

Respectfully disagree...McD isn't known to just say things...if he is planning on playing Josh most the first quarter, I think that is likely what will happen. Its a new offense all together, not just new personnel. They need reps calling live plays in live games as much as they need the reps for creating timing and chemistry. They clearly don't want to risk starting the season slow due to lack of time together, so I expect Josh and the ones will get most the first quarter to work some stuff out. This is what I think is likely to happen...and to get 2 series in will probably take up most the first quarter.

Josh already lives in CA, he actually lives in a gated community down the street from some people I know...Sam Darnold has a house there too. My wife is friends with the his GF's makeup artist, so I am hoping between them or my friends family I can arrange a way to bump into them next offseason ha.

He actually had 2 bad drops just on Wed alone and there have been several other days where there has been reports of drops, including today. So unfortunately its several more than 2. The best thing going for him right now is that Claypool has missed time, but dropping passes keeps doors open for other players like a Shavers, Claypool, Hamler, etc. He still has a legit shot at the roster, but the drops have been an issue in camp so far.

Come on bro...you are the one who came up with some far fetched theory that it was McD interfering with Dorsey as an excuse for Dorsey despite there being zero evidence of such a thing outside your personal theory. I have said Dorsey wasn't working here because... He got fired. So clearly the Bills felt the same. People who actually know real NFL football like Dan Orlosky, Kurt Warner, etc covered extensively what wasn't working with Dorsey and his system. Bills were 5-5 and the offense was in a 6 game skid. In the 5 losses and 2 other games we should have lost if not for Giants and Bucs blowing the final game winning play we averaged 19.6 PPG and were 2-5 to opponents whose win % was .436. Brady came in and the offense scored 32 in his first game against the Jets, the team Dorsey led offense was 1-2 against in 3 games with a 17 ppg average. Brady led offense averaged 27 PPG which is more than a full TD better than Dorseys offense had been doing during the 6 game skid that got him fired. Not only were we 6-1 compared to 2-5, but the win % was well above .500 of our opponents, and they included the SB champs, 3 playoff teams, and 2 teams Dorsey lost to. I don't need inside information to reach a conclusion that Dorsey wasn't working here. It is clear as day from the data, facts, and known information that a change was needed because it was not working. So yes, I do know that it is true Dorsey wasn't working out here because things worked out better when he was gone. I wish him well...hope he keeps improving and goes on to have a good career. He was not working out here though.

What? I haven’t made one claim of what is going on behind the scenes, so what are you even talking about?

Except I’ve done none of that. I don’t need to see what Dorsey does in Cleveland to know he wasn’t working here. Just like players, coaches can learn from mistakes, develop, and become better. I’m not going to condemn Dorsey forever after just 26 games as an OC. But Brady, with the same roster against tougher opponents took the offense out of the muck and rut and we averaged almost 8 more PPG than we did in Dorsey’s 6 game slide. You can chase OC styles…but I will chase results, points, and wins.

Huh? You have yet to even address the facts given to you. You just keep responding with childish banter and nonsense. But you do you boo 😘

I sincerely wasn't trying to twist what you were saying, that was honestly how it read to me. If you meant something else, then fine and fair, I am open to hearing what you meant instead, but that was how I honestly interpreted it. To this I say strike two to you. This is what you made up in your own head, there is no facts or evidence to this what so ever. You can't with any shred of confidence prove this assumption other than to state your personal opinion on why you think this was the case based on how you personally interpreted something McD said one time. And again...to believe this also means you need to believe that after McD saw the Bills be the 2nd highest scoring team in the NFL for 4 seasons, then he suddenly mid season after dismantling the Dolphins decided to interfere with Dorsey and "nerf" his offense into something it wasn't and stuck with it despite the losses stacking up. Which is ironically exactly how I took it the first time your wrote it in which you said was not what you were saying. Yet...the offense didn't actually change on the field in the 7 games...it was the same offense, it just wasn't working. You seem to think when it worked one week and not the next that something drastic was altered and fundamentally changed. It is more like Josh Allen is an elite QB, and he is going to still play at a high level no matter the offense and will have some games where things just go perfectly. The problem with Dorsey and his offense is that it rarely worked perfectly despite the fact it NEEDED to work perfectly. What we saw with Brady was that not everything had to be perfect for the offense to have more success.

😂😂😂 I don’t know what’s worse…this “lesson”…this rebuttal in general…or the fact your tried to flex on this nonsense.

Post of the offseason...nice work! Literally laughed out loud on this one

Both Allen and Caleb starting will have a lot of people tuning in for the early part of this one

MVS is hard to read right now...on one hand, Allen seems to like him and talked him up a little bit lately and MVS has gotten some more time with the ones. However, on the other hand, he has dropped a lot of passes and easily had the most inconsistent camp of all the WR's. And its not a fluke, he has always had inconsistent hands too. Meanwhile Shavers is getting a lot of hype and praise from the coaches and Allen and getting his own reps with the ones as well. MVS does bring playoff experience and with a young WR room, that may be what saves his spot, but Shavers is making a real push to make the roster too. I am curious to see how many WR's we end up keeping. Part of that too obviously is will the returner be a WR or someone at another position like Hardy. I am also curious to see what Claypool adds to the mix when he is back, but the time he missed is going to make it much harder to make this roster. I think Claypool is going to need to have some flash moments in the preseason games for any shot, and I am not even sure when he is back.