Alphadawg7

Welp…

Well we did and Kincaid dropped it

Kincaid has got to catch that

So all off season we had this terrible roster, Beane should be held accountable or fired, etc. Now suddenly we can win games with the inept and pathetic QBs of the past with this roster? Lol this board never ceases to deliver entertainment.

After 140 pages of all this 2 sided chatter...its really much much much simpler to determine the validity of the OP's actual thread. His thread is titled: "I am really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better." So there is one simple question that only needs to be asked: Going into Baltimore Sunday, which WR group do you want to see on the field this Sunday to give us the best chance to win the game? A) Last years group of Diggs, Davis, Shakir, Harty, and Sherfield B) This years group of Shakir, Coleman, Hollins, Samuel, and MVS It really is that simple in terms of the context of this threads actual point. And from my point of view, this is an obvious answer based on our first 3 weeks.

I still think Beane will look to a deal earlier to get about more a discount though., but of course it takes two to tango in that regard.

I agree with you on that, but that is not what Gunner is saying and some others who keep very specifically stating winning on the outside, one on one, down the sideline where the defender can use the sideline as another defender. Again I agree with what you just said here and that is why I said there is more way to win on the "outside" than is being discussed such as using size and positioning (back shoulder throws are one of the hardest plays in the NFL to defend for example), not starting from the outside and still attacking the boundaries, and starting from the outside and attacking the middle. Where I am saying I feel like an over fixation is occurring is in this very specific example of down the sideline in one on one that keeps getting brought up. And quite frankly, I personally already trust Coleman is capable of going up and making the catch over a defender in a one on one scenario. I would rather have a guy who is big, soft hands, with body control and knows how to his body to adjust and go up to get the balls in those one on one deep shots where there is a bigger margin or error of where the QB can put the ball. As opposed to a guy who is dependent on just burning his defender then relying on the QB to make an accurate pass that doesn't over throw him and does not come up short allowing the defender to erase the separation and turn it back into a contested catch scenario, especially if that WR doesn't have the size and physicality to have the advantage in a contested catch situation. And you can see the many deep shots to a wide open Diggs last year where Allen sailed the ball and flat out missed him or threw it short and resulted in an incomplete or interception. In a one on one matchup on the sideline, I personally prefer the big target with soft hands who has a big catch radius on those deep shots more than just a speedster guy more dependent on both beating his man and the QB throwing an accurate strike in order to complete the play. And while we definitely have not yet seen a lot of it, we have seen 2 plays from Coleman that are promising in this way with his week 1 sideline catch and his crosser TD where he torched his 1 on 1 matchup for his first TD. We have also seen Shakir make teams pay down the seam, Kincaid make plays this year and last year from the middle out on the boundaries, etc. Not to mention we have seen MVS get wide open deep twice but Allen just miss him bad. So while we have not been truly tested much in this manner, I don't think it would be fair to assume we just can't do it either based on some things we have seen so far.

Dont get me wrong, I could personally care less. I am just more talking about all this focus leading up to this game and how this is a big test for the Bills and how the media, and even the pessimistic crowd around here, always change that narrative after the games. Just like how a lot of people picked us to lose to Miami week 2 and then after we embarrassed them its now that the Dolphins just suck even though they have since had to play without Tua. Jags too...heading into the season and even that game it was all about the Jags being dangerous needing the win, how they have our number, etc. Then we blow them out and its well they just suck. So I don't think it will be any different if we decisively beat the Ravens is all with people citing their 1-3 record. And again, none of this is important by any means, just more of an observation. But mark my words...this board will be insufferable this week if we lose.

No disrespect, but this just really feels like its being over blown here. And I already know you are going to hit the disagree button on this, and that is fine, but this may be the single most over focused talking point I have seen on this subject. It honestly starting to feel like this something some of you want to hold on to because its the lone thing anyone can say we haven't been tested on yet in regards to those who have been more critical of the WR room. And I do agree, we haven't really been tested in this fashion...but I don't agree that its this end all be all piece of the offense that without it the offense will struggle or fail in big moments. I have watched KC and Pats build 2 dynasties not having that big play sideline guy. Even when KC had Hill, they predominantly did his damage on short throws across the middle that turned into big plays with YAC than they did just throwing sideline bombs. And when they did go deep to Hill, it wasn't down the sidelines and almost always over the middle. Look at the 13 second game...Hill busted that long TD on us to go ahead with just over a minute left in the game on a short crossing route. Kelce and Hill made plays in those 13 seconds over the middle. They scored the winning TD on a corner throw to the TE Kelce. Futhermore, our own attack was Davis catching TD strikes over the middle as well. I am not saying having the ability to win deep along the side line has no value...but you guys talk it up like its going to sink the offense if its not a key part of our offense. And FWIW, I watched Coleman do just fine on his lone shot down the sideline...I also watched him torch man coverage on his 3rd snap for an easy TD this past week. So he has at least shown potential to be able to make these plays in those moments. FWIW: Josh Allen stats against man coverage are filthy.

This game kind of feels like a no win type situation for the Bills in terms of "proving" anything this week. What I mean is all the people saying this is a tough game now are going to change their tune if the Bills win in decisive fashion again and point to the Ravens then 1-3 record and say well they just must not be any good (like they did after we smashed Miami and Jags) rather than look at the Bills as proving they are this good. At the same time, if we lose a tough road game on a short week while missing 3 of our best defensive players I am sure there will be a crowd that says points and says the Bills were a product of their schedule and not that good after all. And we already know what this board will be like if heaven forbid we lose a game in general.

I liked the Dorian pick when we made it, and I have liked what I have seen from him thus far. But I need to see more than 3 games before anyone starts talking about him starting over Milano when Milano is back. I don't know what the contract details are of Milano are, but I would think if Dorian does keep playing at a high level it is going to make Milano's future here murky at the very least. He is on the wrong side of 30, injuries are becoming an issue, and is more expensive.

Im not against adding talent, every team always can add more talent. But I do worry about disrupting chemistry, so I am less comfortable going after a guy who is used to being a priority and plugging him into an offense designed to not prioritize anyone and wants its players to run clear outs, block, etc. I was just saying you were stating you don't trust rookies to make contested catches but then you were propping up Rice who as a rookie made the plays and helped KC win the SB. Just because Coleman is a rookie doesn't mean he can't be a reliable guy to make the contested catches come playoff time is all I am saying.

Im out on Daboll. He has been always allergic to running the football. He even cost himself a win against the Bills last year over it. You are on the 1 yard line, final play of the game, your backup QB is playing who has not been known for great vision in Tyrod, and your best player on the field is Saquan Barkley. What does Daboll do...drop TT back and throw over the middle, not even give TT a play where he can roll out and run it in if the pass wasn't there. Just straight bet the game on TT's arm who isn't very tall to throw over the trenches for his one shot. That was the most Daboll thing ever. When he was here it was maddening how stubborn he could be and called games it felt more like for his ego than smart football decisions at times. Would I take Daboll over Dorsey...100 times over. But if Brady leaves, Daboll isn't the guy I think that would be the right fit to come back. Honestly, one of the biggest differences through the first 3 weeks this year for me is how in sync it feels like McD and both is coordinators are. Like for the first time in McD's tenure here I think this is true. So if Brady gets plucked, I think it will be very important to find another OC that is on the same page with McD like Brady and Babich have really been thus far. One good thing about next year though is we have the draft capital and assets to make a move to get a guy they covet if they want.

And of course...all of that could change for us still too, this is only a small sample size of 3 weeks. If defenses figure out how to stifle this offense between having more film and stiffer opposition, we may then need to start seeing Coleman take on a much bigger role late in the season and playoffs the way Rice started to do last year. But so far it at least appears to be less of a need in comparison to Rice and what they need from him in KC this year. And hopefully it does stay that way as I think we can all agree its better for Josh when he can play this way and focus on just hitting the open guy as opposed to having to focus on a specific target.

Just to clear it up, the context of my post was that poster had just been saying he doesn't trust rookies to make the plays come playoff time, then he just propped up Rice the following post. So my point was Rice was a rookie #1 WR last year when the Chiefs won the Super Bowl. Here is the thing...Rice has to take that step. Kelce was falling off last year until he found a fountain of youth pill in the playoffs and this year is no different. Brown is out, and Worthy has been literally irrelevant outside of a handoff and one broken play all in week 1. But here, we don't "need" Coleman to take that kind of a production step when we are spreading the ball around so effectively and those people are making the plays when getting the targets. So I think it is highly unlikely that Coleman, or any Bills WR, takes as significant of a statistical jump as we will see Rice take this year. Especially now that Pacheco is also out a long period of time. Rice is there entire offense right now so I think its quite likely he will see a pretty significant stats jump this year.

Gotcha, I misunderstood your context when you said as you expected, so apologies for the confusion on that. And my main point is isn't about how a player would play in another circumstance, it is only about how those players play in this circumstance. For example, how relevant would Julian Edelman had been if he did not play with Brady and NE? Probably not very, if at all, yet he was a valuable piece for those teams. It is why I have made a similar case for Brock Purdy where people kept minimizing what he was doing saying its just because of Shannahan's system. Meanwhile their expensive investments into Jimmy G and Trey Lance were not able to replicate the same kind of production and results Purdy is. Does it matter that Purdy wouldn't be "as good" elsewhere or just that he is that good where he is at? And that is where I land. The GM has literally just one job and that is to put the players on the roster that fit what the coaches want to do. Its what made teams like NE and Pats into dynasties as well...and right now, its pretty hard to argue that Beane has not done the same thing with the players around Josh right now in regards to what Brady is asking them to do. So while a lot of people are fixating on what they perceive certain players "can't" do, they are totally missing how great they are doing at what they can do and are being asked to do. And to me, that is far more important than anything else.

I already trust Shakir and Kincaid in these type of “big” moments and I think Coleman is showing potential he can eventually be too. And the difference is for me is there is more than one way to win outside, and that includes not starting lined up on the outside, using size and body control, etc. So while you specifically stated winning on the outside in these moments, where my view comes is I am less worried about guys needing to win in the way you are saying on the outside and just having guys win in general in big moments. For example, in KC Kelce has been that guy in those moments…Gronk and Edelman were in those moments for Brady, etc. So I don’t see it as big moments come down to “winning outside” and more that in big moments someone needs to be depended on somewhere to win, and give me guys I trust to win in big moments in general.

That’s a good question…I think it depends on the rest of the season. For example, if he finishes with what his stats are “projecting” at after 3 games say like 900-1000 yards, it will be different than say once our offense doesn’t have the luxury of taking 2nd halves off and his targets go further up and it leads to him finishing north of say 1200 yards. I think if he is 900-1100 yard guy then something like high teens per might get it done. He breaks 1200+ yards and I think $20m per and above is where it’s headed.

I agree with all this for the most part, although I wasn’t as down on Higgins coming out as you said you were and was fine drafting him if he would have been our pick even though there were others I preferred. In terms of the tough decision on Shakir though, I will go on record now and say that IMHO Shakir will not be going anywhere. Josh and this team love him and he is going to get a second contract IMHO. In fact, I believe Beane will try and extend him early like he has with others before his price tag gets too high in FA.

Adams was complaining after a win last year when he didn't get the ball enough in that win. He would be a terrible fit in this offense right now. He is still a top level talent, but from a fit stand point he would hate not being the feature and he is also not known for doing all the dirty work either. If I made a list of the worst fits for this team right now he would be at or near the top. Personally, I don't think there is any chance we bring someone in unless a significant injury happens or the offense begins to struggle at the WR position over the weeks leading up to the trade deadline. But...if that did happen and we did make a move, I could see Diontae being a more realistic target than the other guys being mentioned here.

And what was Rice last year when the Chiefs won the SB? Hint: Rhymes with "Wookie"

That is the only play you can think of that any scrub WR couldn't have made? No disrespect, but I have no idea how you can say that with a straight face. I mean Shakir alone has made a number of them including other TD catches than just that one. So any scrub is going to win his one on one battle with that much separation that Coleman got for his TD? Any scrub is going to go up with that body control and catch that deep shot Coleman caught week 1? Any scrub is going to catch ball for a 3 yard gain and get smashed by a defender but bounce off him and run the ball up for double digit yards and a first down like Shakir did? Any scrub is going to catch a short pass and ping pong his way for a TD rolling over a defender and stretching out to get the TD like Shakir did week 1? Any scrub is going to run a text book perfect route for the TD week 1 that Hollins did? Any scrub is going to catch some of the tough throws Shakir caught over the middle? Any scrub is going to set an NFL record for catching 27 straight targets? Do you even know how wild that statement is that you are saying any "replacement level" WR would have made every play except the one TD by Shakir? It totally fine you are not yet sold after 3 weeks, but some of these comments like this are just wildly extreme and not reflective of what we saw the first 3 weeks. For example...so why weren't Harty and Sherfield making these same plays last year? Why wasn't Davis or even Diggs for that matter? I find it very interesting that this is the best start and best 3 game stretch of Allens career and its not close...while you say its the worst group he has worked with and that any scrub WR's could be on the field getting the same results. This notion you can plug any low level guy into this offense and somehow this offense would be this good is a wild take to me. What you and many others are sorely missing is that this group is built to compliment each other and compliment this scheme...and that is across the board, not just in the WR room. Its them, the TE's, the RB, and the OL all built to run this offense. And thus far, they are doing so at a very high level through 3 weeks. To suggest any low quality players can be plugged into all their roles at the receiver position and get the same results is just a false reality IMHO.

Fair...but let me ask you this...If his name was MHJ, Odunze, or Nabers would you still be saying that you don't trust him because he is a rookie? Or are you just using the rookie status as a reason about Coleman because you aren't as high on Coleman in general?

I would not unless someone gets hurt or we start to see struggles as teams get more tape on the offense. The chemistry of this team is through the roof right now, especially with Allen and the receivers. Everyone is committed to all the little things and dirty work too and our offense is a function of the sum of all the parts. And adding anyone else into that right now is a risk IMO that isn't worth taking unless we can see a need for said player. So you have decided that Coleman can't make that contested catch after 3 games?

Yet, anyone can go into the All-22 and show 30 clips of the WR's making plays and playing at a very high level in all facets of the game all over the field. So no disrespect, that is playing better than "fine" during the first 3 weeks.