Alphadawg7

I love seeing people who spend time all year to openly complain about our defense, then complain again in the offseason when they go and address and improve the defense. Offense averaged 41.5 points per game in the playoffs last year. Defense gave up 42 points to KC to send us home and couldn't hold KC for 13 seconds or prevent a TD on the opening drive of OT. Seems like the problem was pretty clear why our season ended last year.

But what kind of car do you drive?

While I am not going to rule Moss out given he has shown flashes, wasn't fully healthy last year and has been said to look good this camp...I do still think Devin is the better RB personally, at least until Moss proves otherwise on the field. Personally I don't want to trade Moss or Devin, mainly because I would rather have the depth in a major super bowl run. I hope they just commit to one guy though as the lead back, not evenly split time between Devin and Moss while they also split time with Cook. RB's are best when they find a rhythm, and its best for the OL too to have consistency. And you already have Cook rotating in, so to have a 3rd guy dividing carries is too much IMO.

I don’t think they intend to use Cook as an every down back. I don’t think that’s why they drafted him. I think the intent is to pair him with someone like Devin or Moss. So I think any trade potential would solely be tied to how well Moss plays personally.

After the Bucs game, Devin was finally used with regularity and his averages down the stretch and the playoffs would project to 1400+ yards and 17 TD's. He gets more grief here than he deserves, he is a pretty good RB. I dont know if we will resign him, just from a cap perspective, but he is better than he gets credit for.

6 games? Disgusting.

Thanks! Good read

Im not saying he couldn’t make more or shouldn’t. Im saying the way Edmunds is used is impacting and limiting those kinds of plays. But did Frazier say that he wants more “splash plays” from the defense and you’re just deciding your own narrative that he was really talking about “Edmunds” only, or did Frazier actually say he needs more “splash plays” from specifically Edmunds? I didn’t see the quote, so can you share this where Frazier called out Edmunds directly and for specifically more splash plays? Not calling you out, I legitimately haven’t seen this and would like to read what he said. Mainly because I don’t like how Frazier calls his defense and would like to see what else he had to say that could lead to more aggressive defense this year.

Carr put the team on his back last year and won several close games, and it was while working with a weak group of receivers. Meanwhile, all 3 of the other QBs had elite weapons and 2 of them didn’t make the playoffs including Herbert losing to Carr for a playoff birth while fielding one of the best set of offensive weapons in the whole NFL. Herbert didn’t win close games (including against Raiders for the playoff birth I just mentioned) and even Mahomes lost some close games. And Wilson is coming off his worst season in a while. Now I totally get where you’re coming from, no one would choose Carr over Mahomes and Herbert, and not many would choose him over Wilson at this stage of his career even. This includes myself too. But, I do think he’s a bit underrated and he was clutch last year with this roster and now for the first time has a pretty wicker set of weapons around him. Is he the most talented QB in that division, no. But QB is only one piece, I mean Tannehill has had success against the Bills not because he’s better than Allen, but the team was able to come together. Pats were in contention to win the division late last year with a QB no where near Josh’s level. So the real question is does one believe Carr is good enough to help that team win games, use those weapons, and win the division. My answer to that is yes.

No disrespect, but I mean you’re giving that more relevance than it is IMHO. Again, it comes down to how they use Edmunds more than you think, which was the entire point of the post I made you keep responding to.

Ive been calling the Raiders my bold prediction division winner this offseason, I just think they are the most balanced.

Yet coaches, teammates and his peers say the opposite. That he’s impacting the game at a multitude of levels throughout the game. Maybe your definition of impact plays is too limited to things like sacks and just doesn’t factor in the way our DC uses Edmunds on the field. Because the coaches feel that he’s executing what they ask him to do at a high level, and so do his teammates. I’ve said this many times, the things fans hate the most about Edmunds is less about Edmunds play, and more about how they use him isn’t going to generate a high number of the fans narrow view of what they define as an “impact” play.

Thanks, it actually took me like 3 days to actually complete and post it as I kept diving deeper and it kept changing my mind and how I thought about the battle overall. It was ready like a day early, but I had a hard time landing on McKenzie being a potential surprise cut/trade because I do like him. Admittedly, had I waited another day I probably would have changed my mind again to be honest lol. But certainly enjoying the convo

I honestly would prefer Cook over Edmunds. Nothing against Edmunds, but I think Cook has more upside personally. That being said, I would have been excited to sign Edmunds as well, I think he would have been a good addition here, just like JD would have too. But overall, I prefer the upside and the cheaper contract with Cook. I think he is going to play a lot this year and make a big impact on our offense.

Definitely glad to hear this, like I said I like him and will be rooting for him!

I am loving the reports of the defense stepping up so far. Dont get me wrong I love offense, but the bigger weakness coming into this season was our defense. They were good last year, but they didn't have the edge to them where you felt you could count on them in big moments or against better teams. Looking forward to seeing this unit tested out the gate against the Rams offense.

To everyone in this thread...I am quite enjoying the discussion here and reading everyone thoughts on the matter. So thanks for your participation and good posts! I knew as soon as I hit post it was going to have a little controversial take with me questioning if McKenzie could be a surprise cut/trade because he is such a fan favorite, and that includes me, I do really like him. But the responses have been great, lots of fluid discussion which was really the point of this thread at this stage. I just find this position battle intriguing and enjoying all the various opinions. Its a battle to replace what was a gritty, tough, player who was a staple of our team and Josh's development. So watching how this battle evolves is something I find very intriguing. I am a big fan of the Shakir pick too, so seeing him come out and impress early was exciting for me to see which is only heating up my interest more in this battle. I thought he should have been a 2nd rounder personally, and to be honest, didn't even realize he had even slipped that far. None of the impressing early matters in shorts, but you still like to see it and gets you hyped to see what he can do with pads on and when he gets hopefully some snaps with the ones at some point. Personally, I think Shakir is going to have a Davis like impact this season and will start the 2023 season next year as a starter at the slot. He honestly reminds me a lot of Cooper Kupp in terms of their style of play. And its not a coincidence, he himself has said he studies Kupp and models his game after him. I think once he earns the trust of the coaches and Josh, he will start seeing more snaps as the season grows.

You know since I put this thread up, I have spent some time working more on this very thing, the final roster counts at each position. And initially, I didn't see a path to keeping more than 6 WR's. My thoughts when I wrote this thread were that 6 was the max number of receivers were likely to keep this year, and one of them was going to need to be the returner too. That is where I struggled to justify keeping 3 receivers to primarily play the slot if none of them were the kick returner too. Again, the backup slot position as it is has seen almost no action the past 2 years despite a prolific offense. So why keep 3 if one isnt the returner was the question I just kept coming back to. But, as I fiddled with the numbers last night, I started settling closer to what you have here, in fact almost exactly the same count you have here. If the roster cut downs were to play out like this, then I can definitely see us having the space to keep a 7th receive that is a kick returner which if we do, then I can easily see us keeping all 3 of McKenzie, Crowder, and Shakir. Like I said in another post, I didn't set out to dive into this position with my mind made up someone had to go. It actually took me several days to even finish writing this thread because I kept changing my mind as I dived into more data. That being said, I still don't see a significant jump in production from McKenzie by the seasons end without injuries helping him get on the field more. There will be just too many mouths to feed this year, I expect the slot targets to see another small decrease for the 2nd year in a row due to other changes to the offense, and he will at best split snaps with Crowder and Shakir too. And I still don't believe our staff views him as a heavy workload player more than a guy who has a role in specific situations. So still not seeing a significant spike unless injuries open up additional opportunities for touches.

Crowders deal can be worth up to $4M if I understand it correctly based on incentives, which is why I said it could potentially be more than McKenzie. I am sure you agree that if Crowder was out there this week he would have gotten his share or reps with the ones too. Is he behind a little now, sure...but McKenzie being the default guy running with the ones a few days in shorts to open camp doesn't translate to some kind of strangle hold on the position either. I am sure we will see both Crowder and Shakir start getting reps with the ones this next week of practice. Im glad he had a great week I do like him...but so did Shakir and Tavon. Its all in shorts, doesn't mean a whole lot yet. Ive seen McKenzie have these great weeks the last 3 years in camp and preseason just to watch the coaches not translate that to usage on the field in any kind of consistent role. So I just cant put too much stock into these reports in shorts, I want to see the coaches make an effort to involve him consistently in the offense before I believe he is destined for a significant role this season. I will be rooting for him though, I do personally like him.

No offense taken...all good discussion going on in this thread...and I am not sold McKenzie is a surprise cut/trade by any means. I wasn't setting out to even come to that possibility. It more came about as I looked at all the data, potential roster makeup at other positions, etc...I couldn't get past the fact that I kept coming back to finding it hard to keep 3 primarily slot players without one of them returning kicks. Truth is, I hope we keep Crowder, Shakir, and McKenzie. And its a legit possibility, maybe even the most plausible outcome. But I will say, if we were to keep all 3 I don't think McKenzie has much more production than his career highs of 30 rec and 283 yards. There just wont be a enough snaps and balls to go around. Davis and Diggs are going to eat a lot of targets, the TE's seem more poised to be involved, Cook is going to increase the targets to the RB's as a whole, and I do think we will run the ball a little more than under Daboll.

All good man, just an open discussion. Im not dying on this hill kind of thing, just speculation based on just watching this battle unfold. Fair question, but is it really his best chance? Crowder is the more accomplished player and probably more well rounded than McKenzie and Shakir is looking to be living up to all buzz about him already and has been mentioned the most often as standing out amongst this group so far. So he went from having to compete with one guy in Beasley for snaps to possibly 2 guys now, one of which is seen as the likely future of the position in Buffalo in Shakir. I go back to last year...Beasley had a slightly down year...missed 2 games...and we had an extra 17th game. Yet all that translated to McKenzie was less yards, less receptions, and even being a healthy scratch one game. So in a year he should have had more opportunities last year, they used him less and had just 20 receptions and 178 yards receiving, most of which came in one game. That is why I am saying that as much as most us fans like McKenzie, as much as he seemed like by teammates, it has not translated to coaches finding consistent ways to get him involved. Even in a year like last year where there was a little more opportunity to do so.

Thanks and good points. I would counter though and say they only brought McKenzie back after Beasley demanded a trade. Prior to that, Beane said multiple times they expected Beasley to be here this season for his final year of his contract. Once Beasley asked for a trade, Beane said he only wanted guys here who wanted to be here and decided to honor the trade request. And of course they brought McKenzie back, but they didnt pay him much, at least not an amount that would assume it meant he was the heir apparent to Beasley. My counter to the "he is running the ones" stuff is that way too much is being made of that this week while in shorts. Crowder didnt play and Shakir is a rookie. There was literally 0% chance anyone else was gonna start with the ones other than McKenzie this week. So I can't put too much weight on a "default" type situation in terms of what might happen a month from now. I just don't think you sign Crowder (for more potentially money) if you as a staff are sold McKenzie is your primary slot player. I don't believe they added Crowder as someone to backup McKenzie, I think he was directly brought in to compete to succeed Beasley. But hey, they havent even put pads on. Once the bullets start flying around all this will get more clear. I do really like McKenzie, so I am not rooting against him. I do hope we keep all 3, I just wrote my analysis as unbiased as I could and look at it more from an overall roster perspective. And it kept leading me to his path where I couldn't validate keeping 3 guys to primarily play out of the slot unless one was returning kicks. But hey, that could all change once we see them in practice with pads and in preseason.

Yeah read that too, which will be something interesting to watch. I am not sure he instills enough confidence though as a receiver to really have a shot to make this team if he doesn't win the kick returner duties out right. Well I get why you say that, but there is a big factor this year where I think it matters more. And that is we have been running thin the past 2 years at other positions affording us the ability to go heavier at positions like WR (7 last year for instance). But those positions we were thin at, especially in our secondary, I think will see a deeper roster of guys there this year. In fact, I think we will keep 2 more guys than last year in our CB/S groups alone. I also think we might carry one more OL than we did last year too. So I am not sure we have the luxury this year of keeping 7 receivers again. Which means, there is one less spot up for grabs, so if your full time KR is a WR, then I think that impacts the roster decisions this year there. I have no problem with Mckenzie, I like him. And I do think its a job share...but curious, what makes you confident he gets the heavier workload? Honestly, IMO nothing the coaching staff or FO has done suggests they see him as a heavy workload player. Every preseason he gets buzz and this big expanded role as a weapon stuff. Yet it never happens, they barely use him. And last year, they used him even less despite a longer season and Beasley missing 2 games and slightly declining. I mean he was a healthy scratch even last year, and outside the Pats game, he totaled just 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the season. This year after they signed him cheap, they still added Crowder, Shakir and Tavon. So to me, I feel like the coaches and staff decisions this offseason and past seasons more indicates they don't see him as a feature player or heavy workload guy. Of course, doesn't mean that cant change this year, just more commenting on what has happened thus far.

I think Shakir is primary seen as being the heir apparent at the slot role here, but I do agree he can play outside too. But he is viewed to be at his best out of the slot and I think that will be how we use him the most. That being said, we don't have anyone great behind Diggs and Davis, so I think there is an opportunity for him to get extra snaps/targets filing in some outside behind Diggs and Davis this year.

No disrespect, but he has never totaled more than 283 yards in a season. I like him too, but the coaching staff for what ever reason hasn't felt as passionately as you about getting him on the field. For example, despite his big game against NE, he only had 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the 2021 season and even was a healthy scratch one game. I am not slamming him, just pointing out the our coaches have just not gotten him on the field in any regular capacity for some reason.