Alphadawg7

Well Milano’s deal was done a couple years ago. Not a fair comparison to what Milano would get if he was a free agent today. Not advocating for a deal this big for Edmunds, just saying can’t compare this years market to one a while back, prices are just different. As far as Edmunds goes, I won’t be pissed if he is brought back, but with Frazier here I don’t see the point in spending more big money on defense. Free up all that cap space and put it into the offense and help and protect Josh. Frazier has had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses the last 2 years and still folded like a lawn chair in the playoffs. So I am at a point where it doesn’t matter who we put on the field, with Frazier here the defense is going to get smashed again in the playoffs. So invest heavy into the offense to make sure we out score them.

Less is still too expensive. Not like he’s gonna sign for $4M or something. He’s still gonna get more money than we can afford to spend on a RB. AND he’s a dome RB! We got small RBs who can’t pick up tough yards. We need guys who can run in the snow when the snow neutralizes their speed and cutting advantage. He isn’t the kind of tough runner who will excel in bad weather, and he can’t stay healthy either.

Honestly, this kind of stuff is pretty common. I have had it happen to me many times across many things. Without thinking about it too hard, I could probably list at least a dozen examples related sports, entertainment, etc where I have met someone who was connected to, friends with, or family to some type of major celebrity or athlete and they were very chatty with info not known to the public. They aren't anybody...but when they can say there are so and so's Uncle, friend, cousin, whatever they suddenly get a little bit of that spotlight and get chatty for attention. Now, in terms of this post...lets assume this story is true, that doesn't mean Edmunds uncle really had the details correct or that things can't still change. A lot of these guys talk like they know more sometimes than they do, again getting back to liking the attention of people being interested in what they are saying. It could be that is what Edmunds and his team are trying to get and his Uncle chatting it up like its a done deal for example. So while I do think its plausible, probably even likely, someone met this guy claiming to be Edmunds uncle. That doesn't mean the words his uncle said are always going to be totally accurate either.

I do not think the combo of Frazier and Dorsey are the right people to man those positions. That is the main significant change I wish would have happened, but neither looks like it will happen. Running it back with those guys makes this the first offseason in the McD/Beane/Allen era where I am concerned about the next season. Frazier - I already made my case as to what I am fed up with about him in the other thread I started. So won't repeat that all here. Dorsey - He gets somewhat of a pass given he is a first year OC. But there is kind of the rub...why are we risking Josh Allens prime and our best SB chances in 20+ years on an inexperienced OC? My biggest gripe about the job he did was he seemed clueless on the style of offense to run based on the roster pieces in place. We only had 2 legit WR's in Diggs and Davis, and like 37 slot WR's on this team...but yet our passing offense was focused heavily on pushing the ball down field. We draft Cook specifically to be a pass catching RB, then we barely use him in that capacity. Then we often run draws with Cook in the run game despite the fact he goes down if someone farts near him. He is talented player who excels in space...so we are running him up the middle? And he completely left Knox out of the game plan the first half of the year in terms of the passing attack, which was clearly a mistake given how valuable of a TD machine he showed once they started using him more. Don't even get me started on his redzone play calling or his situational awareness which was pretty bad most the time. BUT, at least there is hope Dorsey can tighten things up and improve given it was just his first year, and there were some good things he did too. Frazier though...how can anyone expect anything different from him when year after year his defense gets embarrassed in the playoffs? Which is why I have made a much stronger case that we need to go in a different direction at DC given Frazier's contract is up.

Agree with most all this...I would also trade Oliver ahead of the draft personally. Not because he is a bad player, but he just does not succeed consistently enough and also relies heavily on those around him to succeed. So I can not see him being worth the investment next year. Worst case, if they can't get at least a 3rd rounder for him, I suppose they can run it back and let him leave in FA and try and recoup a 3rd rounder that way. Absolutely bring Shaq back, I think Phillips signed a 2 year deal if I am not mistaken, so I think he is already back. If I am wrong, then yes bring him back too. Not sure Hughes is the right answer to bring back. I think you gotta stick with the youth, and for as much flack as AJE gets, people don't seem to realize he had 6.5 sacks here this year in limited playing time. Hughes only had more than that like 3 times his whole career. I don't think you can trade Basham yet, not until they know when Von is going to be ready as we will need the depth and he is on a rookie contract and cheap.

I think he will be back too. And I don't expect an overhaul of the whole defensive system...but Frazier is calling the defense, he is making poor play calls and in game decisions. So a new DC will at least bring fresh ideas and new thoughts during in game moments and hopefully new ideas on how to generate pressure more consistently.

Bucs D was ranked 8th. That is not elite. And I already stated in my OP that it was the one year where the next weeks opponent had a higher ranked D than ours. But Bucs 8th ranked D only allowed 9 points to KC while our 15th ranked got trounced. And that 15th ranked D is still a higher ranking the Bengals had last year (16th) and Chiefs had this year (17th) when they slowed down the same high potent offense that our #1 and #2 ranked defenses got smashed by. Incorrect. McD called a squib kick, not on the HC. ST Coordinator forgot to tell the Kicker. And it wouldn't have mattered if we did, this is a myth, they had all 3 timeouts. We squibbed it this year and in 12 seconds before the half (1 second less), KC managed to still get a FG on us AGAIN. Our D was ranked #2 in the NFL, and the people missing had been missing most the year or half the year. The unit that managed to put up #2 ranked defense was entirely on the field except for Hamlin who was pretty bad in coverage anyway. So again, not accurate accounting here. In fact, you are not really that accurate on any of the 3 points above.

Well for starters I think they are using their young players more effectively and getting more production from them. And I think they have a substantially better offensive scheme and also their defensive scheme has been reliable despite all the defensive turnover. They have just been more consistent in the trenches, that has been key.

Yeah, and to be honest, that was one of the things I admire most about Beane. He doesn't make excuses, he doesn't sugar coat it, and he doesn't hide from the truth. That being said, it was hard to walk away from that end of the year presser feeling good heading into a critical offseason. This is honestly the first time since we drafted Allen that I have ended the season concerned for the next season instead of optimistic. First time in the Allen era where the cap may create more holes while still needing to fix weak spots already like the OL and weapons around Allen. So feels like it is going to take a near perfect offseason by Beane in free agency decisions and the draft to see this team be as good or better next year. And as much as I love Beane, that is a tall task for even the best GM's for one offseason. And while its really early, our schedule next year looks dangerous. AFCE is already a tough division, and all 3 teams have cap space to keep trying to close the gap. In addition to those 6 divisional games, we play 4 AFC playoff teams and 4 NFC playoff teams next year, including both teams in the Super Bowl and Bengals again. And teams like our own division and Bengals still have rookie QB deals and more cap space this offseason to make more improvements. Just feels like the margin of error is the thinnest its ever been in the Beane and Allen eras.

💯 and I was going to mention that in my OP, but post was already getting too long lol. But yes, spot on

I am not advocating to fire McD, I think he gets this next season before his seat starts to get real hot. But I am not confident Frazier can make the right calls or adjustments on the field in the postseason.

Respectfully disagree as you initially just dismissed those critical of Frazier. Here is exactly what you said: "Some people want heads on sticks. They are conditioned in the social media age to think accountability means people being fired. People can be held accountable without losing their jobs." I mean that isn't engaging in a discussion and hearing each others opinions. That was just kind of a rude way to dismiss anyones opinion who doesn't feel Frazier should automatically be brought back by saying they do not understand the word "accountability" because of social media. That is why I just paid you a compliment and applauded you for coming into the conversation and actually discussing your differing opinion on the topic rather than just dismissing anyone who sees it different. I have no issue if you feel differently, but I do feel like that previous stance was a bit disrespectful to those who were taking the time to share their reasons why they feel like it may be time for a change. Any way, I stand by my kudos I sent in the last one, and appreciate seeing this side of Gunner back discussing things like you normally do.

First, I want to acknowledge that this is the Gunner I enjoy and respect. We don't have to agree, but at least you are providing real responses and your own thoughts regarding the topic at hand. So kudos for switching gears, and appreciate the dialogue. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying here, that the defense wouldn't magically change completely because McD has a hand in this defense. However, Frazier has just showed to not have an answer in either game plan, adjustments, or play calling so many times in these big moments. And for me, that is where I would hope we would see an improvement with a new DC who have different thoughts or approaches to these moments. I am not advocating that the defense has to be completely changed to an entirely new scheme. I just want fresh blood in there who can bring some new ideas in these moments and these games.

Are we though? And sorry, that is a bit dramatic...Replacing a DC is NOT "blowing the whole darn thing up". Josh and the offense played to NFL records last year...we lost...thanks to the D. So even with Allen playing at an NFL record level, we still didn't advance. This year, Bengals embarrassed us on both sides of the ball at home while they were missing 3 OL starters. We are cash strapped...our 2 highest paid defenders, and arguably what is supposed to be our 2 best players on D are coming off ACL tear issues. One of them, Von, is doing it at 34 years old and depends on his athleticism. The other Tre, was never that fast, and hasn't yet proven he can get back to a high level of play yet. Now we have Poyer and Edmunds, two important players to Fraziers D the last 2 years who are free agents and one or both may not be back. Our OL is terrible, our lead RB is likely not back, and we have issues at WR to address. Again...no cap space, only 6 draft picks that all end of round picks. Meanwhile: All 3 teams in our division are already tough and have rookie QB contracts giving them more money to spend to keep improving. Bengals, already showing to be ahead of us, also have a rookie QB contract and a lot of cap space to keep improving a team already performing better than ours. KC is still KC. So how close are we today? We made the AFCCG 3 years ago and haven't been back since. Reality is we are firmly behind KC and Bengals right now, and our own divisional opponents are getting better each year. And we don't have the fire power to make drastic moves.

I am listening to players...I listened to the recorded conversation between Kelce and Mahomes on the field who saw how weak the defense being called on the field and ran in a straight line to beat it right up the middle because Frazier called the same play twice, that didn't work either time. That carries more weight to me then listening to players cover for their own DC and not throw him under the bus.

I think you know me by now, I have never been a "fire this guy" over reactor in my tenure on this board. I have always been a believer in continuity. But there comes a time where things are not working and you have to look at if we have the right people in place. This year Jerry Hughes put up 9 sacks in a new defense on the worst team in the NFL in a year he was supposed to be washed. He had 2 sacks with Frazier last year, and 4.5 the two years before. Would you say that indicates that he at least benefited from a change in the defense and DC? For years people complained Hughes got pressure, but not enough sacks. He goes elsewhere and has a stellar 9 sack season despite being seen as washed around here after a 2 sack season last year.

Jerry Hughes managed 11 total sacks in his final 3 years in Buffalo (never more than 4.5). In a year he was supposed to be too old and we moved on from him, Hughes goes out and puts up 9 sacks and was a game wrecker for Houston, the worst team in the NFL. He had just 2 for Buffalo last year. More evidence that there are issues with Frazier's scheme, game-plan, or play calling when it comes to the lack of pressure we get.

I think he showed to be a quality reserve and depth player. He was leading our whole team in tackles when he got hurt on the season, and that is without starting the season as a starter. His play in coverage was not what you want to see on an every down starter, but its also his 2nd year and first year getting this much play time. I think he has earned a spot here on this team. We could do a lot worse at backup safety position. We will have Hyde back who will start, but if for some reason Hyde wasn't here, then yeah, I agree Hamlin isn't the ideal starter to replace him and ideally we would find someone to take over the starting role and Hamlin back them up.

But its more than that...like playing 10 yards off the LOS on a key 3rd and 4 against the Bengals WR's...Chiefs didn't do that. Tim Graham even reported McD was screaming on the sidelines about that when he saw it pre-snap too, so he clearly didn't agree with Fraziers decision there either. Or when Kelce schooled Frazier on the 13 seconds literally saying if they are gonna play it like that again hit me in the seem for an easy big game. Not only did we run the same play that had just yielded a big gain to Hill on the first play of the 13 seconds, Kelce was spot on and caught the easiest big gain right up the seem. No trickery, just ran right up the seem because Frazier called the same weak and soft defense even though KC had all 3 timeouts to start the drive and could throw it anywhere on the field. And make no mistake about it, there is a very good chance that 13 seconds debacle cost us what is easily our best shot in 20 years at a SB birth and title. Not to mention the lay down the defense did on the ensuing OT drive easily giving up a TD with almost no resistance. You bring up sacks last year as to why Bengals fared better. Bills and Bengals tied with 42 sacks on the season. We were the number 1 ranked D and they were 16th. So why did the Bengals have more success getting to Mahomes? They were not any better at sacking the QB than we were all year, and their defense overall was much worse than ours. At some point, you have to look at scheme, play calling, and game plan to explain why these other teams are faring better against the same common opponent, especially when we are fielding the better defense. And its not an isolated incident, it's a pattern over 3 years now. PS: Jerry Hughes - Sacks with Bills the last 3 years he was here: 11 total sacks. First year with a bad team in Houston he puts up 9 sacks, almost as much as he put up in Fraziers defense over 3 years in a year he was supposed to be too old and washed up. Just more evidence Frazier is the one failing at generating pressure with the personnel we have.

Good for him...if he is medically recovered and is comfortable mentally to get back out there, absolutely. He worked his life to reach this level of a game he loves, I applaud his bravery and commitment to the game, his team, and his dreams. No one would blame him one bit if he walked away, and no one should question him if he decides to come back either.

Why has Frazier allowed 107 points and 1403 yards to KC, KC, and Bengals and then those teams go on to combine to score 53 points and 1034 yards (all losses) in their games the following week? Twice against teams ranked 16th and 17th in defense while we fielded the #1 and #2 ranked defenses but got trounced? I have asked you this question multiple times now, but you have yet to even acknowledge it. If we are fielding the superior ranked defense, how are we getting gutted for more than double the points and 40% more offensive yards against the very same offenses 1 week apart?

Agreed on all this. I have not heard a peep really since the end of the year pressers by Beane and McD. And it certainly sounded like they had every intention on bringing Frazier back, and right now, that is the closest to an update that has been publicly stated on Frazier. He has not gotten any HC interest...another sign that people are not enamored with his playoff track record. He went from a guy getting interest and interviews in past seasons to someone who is ice cold in the coaching searches. Even Dorsey, who only has 1 year as an OC under his belt who had his own ups and downs this year got a little HC interest. I keep hoping they watch the film of the Bengals/Bills game and then go watch the film of the Bengals/Chiefs game and see what a massive difference a better game plan and better play calling made and come to their senses and try something new. So as of now, I still expect him back until there is some sign he won't be.

Ughhh huh? Ok, let's do it your way...let's bring back Rob Ryan because "disrupting" things when we fired him was clearly a mistake. While we are at it, let's fix our other mistake and try and lure Rex Ryan out of the booth because disrupting the team and firing him to hire McD was clearly a mistake too. I mean who needs disruption when you can just stick with what isn't working right? Because change never works. *sarcasm*

Fair response, but the answer is no. Fraziers contract is up, an actual decision has to be made to actually bring him back. The case I’m presenting is why many of us are against that decision because we have seen other defensive coordinators with less talented defenses have significantly more success against the same offenses that Fraziers defense has played their worst football against. We have other issues as a whole, like OL and another WR. Dorsey IMO was also a weak spot, but he’s also only got one year under his belt as the OC where Frazier has been here as the DC a long time and the results are not getting any better despite significant investments into the defense, continuity, player growth, etc. So this thread is specifically about Frazier, essentially the free agent DC whose contract has expired and why many of us do not feel he should be brought back based on his results and lack of improvement on the field.

If one is to read my thread title...its states the hard facts on why many of us want a change. Meaning, we want a change based on these factual results that we are not satisfied with. Doesn't at all mean our "opinion" of wanting a change is the "hard facts".