Alphadawg7

Why has Frazier allowed 107 points and 1403 yards to KC, KC, and Bengals and then those teams go on to combine to score 53 points and 1034 yards (all losses) in their games the following week? Twice against teams ranked 16th and 17th in defense while we fielded the #1 and #2 ranked defenses but got trounced? I have asked you this question multiple times now, but you have yet to even acknowledge it. If we are fielding the superior ranked defense, how are we getting gutted for more than double the points and 40% more offensive yards against the very same offenses 1 week apart?

Agreed on all this. I have not heard a peep really since the end of the year pressers by Beane and McD. And it certainly sounded like they had every intention on bringing Frazier back, and right now, that is the closest to an update that has been publicly stated on Frazier. He has not gotten any HC interest...another sign that people are not enamored with his playoff track record. He went from a guy getting interest and interviews in past seasons to someone who is ice cold in the coaching searches. Even Dorsey, who only has 1 year as an OC under his belt who had his own ups and downs this year got a little HC interest. I keep hoping they watch the film of the Bengals/Bills game and then go watch the film of the Bengals/Chiefs game and see what a massive difference a better game plan and better play calling made and come to their senses and try something new. So as of now, I still expect him back until there is some sign he won't be.

Ughhh huh? Ok, let's do it your way...let's bring back Rob Ryan because "disrupting" things when we fired him was clearly a mistake. While we are at it, let's fix our other mistake and try and lure Rex Ryan out of the booth because disrupting the team and firing him to hire McD was clearly a mistake too. I mean who needs disruption when you can just stick with what isn't working right? Because change never works. *sarcasm*

Fair response, but the answer is no. Fraziers contract is up, an actual decision has to be made to actually bring him back. The case I’m presenting is why many of us are against that decision because we have seen other defensive coordinators with less talented defenses have significantly more success against the same offenses that Fraziers defense has played their worst football against. We have other issues as a whole, like OL and another WR. Dorsey IMO was also a weak spot, but he’s also only got one year under his belt as the OC where Frazier has been here as the DC a long time and the results are not getting any better despite significant investments into the defense, continuity, player growth, etc. So this thread is specifically about Frazier, essentially the free agent DC whose contract has expired and why many of us do not feel he should be brought back based on his results and lack of improvement on the field.

If one is to read my thread title...its states the hard facts on why many of us want a change. Meaning, we want a change based on these factual results that we are not satisfied with. Doesn't at all mean our "opinion" of wanting a change is the "hard facts".

First off, Frazier is basically unemployed with an expired contract. Moving on from Frazier is as simple as not giving him a new contract and hiring someone else. He doesn't have to be fired. Second, that is not what you said at all. That may be what you are saying now, but it wasn't the words you wrote previously. Third, I very much understand the word accountability, and I think its you that actually is limiting the meaning of accountability. You are absolutely correct, that accountability does not ALWAYS mean someone should be fired. HOWEVER...accountability absolutely CAN still mean CHANGE is needed if someone is demonstrating that they may not be the right person to complete the task over and over again. Whether that is being fired, not brought back, demoted, etc it doesn't matter. If someone is doing a worse job than others, change is needed. And Frazier has had the exact same failures on defense THREE consecutive years in the playoffs. And DC's of defenses that are not statistically nearly as good as Fraziers are coming in the next week and having SIGNIFICANTLY more success against the SAME offenses Frazier has failed to slow down and defeating those teams we can't beat. Frazier: 3 losses - 107 points, 1403 yards. DC's those teams faced the very next week: 3 Wins - 53 points, 1034 yards of offense. And 2 of those years we had the 1st and 2nd ranked defense, and those other DC's had the 16th and 17th ranked defenses yet we were atrocious and they were very good and won their games as a result. It would be one thing if these offenses that were steam rolling Fraziers defense went on to keep steam rolling the next team and defenses they faced. But they aren't, they are 0-3 after beating the Bills, and in all 3 games their offenses were held in check by defenses with less overall talent and much lower rankings in 2 of those seasons.

Wait..so are you saying another DC couldn't do a good enough job on a defense the past 2 years that ranked first and second in the league for the Bills to make the playoffs? As if Frazier was the only one capable of helping us make the playoffs?

Or you can read the post and see the information being presented are the facts of the results of these games. Theres that too...or just keep adding little to the thread with silly unnecessary comments is another approach too, to each their own.

I totally get McD has his influence on the defense, but the reality is Frazier is calling the defense in game. Tim Graham even reported that McD was screaming before the snap when he saw our DB's playing 10 yards off the LOS on a critical 3rd and 4 against the elite Bengals WR's. Frazier made that call. And this was an issue, this play was even mentioned by Beane in his end of the year presser. And we know McD isn't going anywhere this next season, so make the change where you can make the change. You don't even have to fire Frazier, his contract is up, just hire someone new. While McD will still have his influence on the D, maybe a new DC won't make stupid calls like that against potent offenses. Take the 13 seconds debacle for example...Kelce humiliated Frazier on National TV being mic'd up. He literally told Pat if they are gonna play it like that again (which we did even though it didn't work at all on the first pass that Hill got a bunch of yards on) just to hit him in the seem for an easy catch. Ball is snapped, Kelce screams at Pat and they make an easy throw to set up the FG attempt. These are calls being made in game by Frazier. The Bengals and Chiefs DC didn't make those same blunders when they faced our opponent the very next week and slowed those offenses down and won the games.

Except that is not at all, even one bit, the complaints about Frazier. I asked you questions in the post you just disagreed with, and you didn't even bother to address or answer them and just doubled down on this absurd social media theory. In fact, all I have seen you do mostly is hit the disagree button rather than actually enter into a discussion about the reasons and facts that people are dissatisfied about. And when you finally do reply, you just dismiss everyone and basically say social media made us irrational and we just want someones head on a spike...which quite frankly is both insulting and utter nonsense regarding many of us who are dissatisfied with Frazier. And you did indirectly comment about my post...you replied to someone commenting on my thoughts, and then just said we all are influenced by social media and completely dismissing anything I had said to be nothing other than that. So, as much as I respect you as a poster Gunner, and I really do...this line you are taking here blaming social media's influence for our dissatisfaction of Fraziers last 3 years is utter nonsense and I expect better from you. To be clear, it's fine to have a differing opinion, but that is not what you are presenting. Instead you are dismissing the rest of us as if we are mindless sheep influenced by social media to be mad and incapable of a rational opinion on the subject matter. And that is utter nonsense.

I know Frazier is being talked about in different threads across the board. But where I am taken back is the number of people making excuses for Frazier or absolving him of any responsibility or blame...or even mocking those who think a change is needed. There is this one big thing that is commonly getting overlooked, and it's IMHO undeniable evidence that there is fundamental flaw in Frazier's defense vs the teams who have been in our way to get to the SB. The past 3 years, our defense was dominated in the 3 playoff losses...but also, In all 3 seasons, those very same offenses that dominated our defense were held in check or shut down literally the following week by their next opponent who mostly had much lower ranked defenses than us, and ALL 3 lost their next game. The big difference was clearly game plan and play calling. Bills in 2 of those years had by far the better defense during the season, yet fared terrible in comparison. Bills defensive rankings last 3 years: 2020 - 15th (lost to Chiefs) 2021 - 1st (lost to Chiefs) 2022 - 2nd (lost to Bengals) COMBINED: 107 points, 1403 yards those offenses scored on us. Defensive rankings of the teams that beat the team that beat us the very next week: 2020 - Bucs 8th (beat Chiefs) 2021 - Bengals 16th (beat Chiefs) 2022 - Cheifs 17th (beat Bengals) COMBINED: 53 points, 1034 yards those same offenses scored in their very next game (all losses) after beating us. So our defense combined to give up twice as many points and almost 40% more yards than what those same offenses managed to do against their next opponent the very next week (in which they lost all 3 times). And mostly against statistically inferior defenses to our own. All 3 seasons, our defense was dominated by the offenses we faced in our postseason loss: Chiefs, Chiefs, and Bengals. All 3 would go on to lose the very NEXT week with their offenses being shutdown or held in check: 2020 - AFC Championship Game - Bills @ KC: Our defense is helpless against the Chiefs who have their way offensively against us. Hill and Kelce running wide open all over the field as if they were not even being covered. Chiefs win the game with ease because our offense also showed poorly. Super Bowl - Chiefs vs Bucs: Bucs defense dominates the Chiefs offense and goes on to easily handle the Chiefs and win in dominant fashion. This would be the only year the defense of the next weeks opponent was ranked higher than the Bills defense, but even so, the Bucs were still just the 8th ranked defense in the NFL that year. 2021 - AFC Divisional Round - Bills @ KC: Our #1 ranked defense gives up 42 points, including 17 points in the final 2 min of the game and OT that included the 13 second debacle before completely laying down in OT. Chiefs win the game. AFC Championship Game - Cincy @ Chiefs: Bengals 16th ranked defense completely shuts down Chiefs offense in the 2nd half and goes on to pull off an upset and beat the Chiefs at home holding them to just 24 points (compared to our 42 points) to advance to the SB. 2022 - AFC Divisional Round - Cincy @ Bills: Finally a home game, and despite bad weather (allegedly some sort of "competitive advantage" for the BIlls) and Cincy missing THREE starters on the OL (their weakest unit the past seasons even when healthy), our #2 ranked defense let the Cincy offense dominate the LOS and the Bengals got very little resistance from the Bills defense. Bengals win. AFC Championship Game - Cincy @ Chiefs: In a rematch of the previous season, Chiefs 17th ranked defense holds the Bengals offense in check and win a close game giving up only 20 points. That is pretty astounding to look at and a strong indicator of just how poor our game-plan and play calling was in those games. Especially the last 2 years when we had the #1 and #2 Defense entering the postseason respectively. Even with the 15th ranked D in 2020, that is NO EXCUSE when you see defenses ranked 16th and 17th still perform well in 2021 and 2022 against similar potent offenses. And forget the stats, just watch all 6 of these games...the evidence and countless examples were right there on the screen, and it's clear as day why those other defenses had more success than our own. Personally, I think it's a big part of the reason Frazier isn't getting HC interest. Having his high ranked defenses consistently fold in big games to teams who would get slowed by middle of the pack defenses the very next week is not a good look. Especially for a guy who already has a bad stint as a HC on his resume in Minnesota. I just don't see a case to bring him back. I get he is likely coming back based on comments from Beane...but should he is the question. I just don't know how anyone can overlook how defenses that were mediocre all season fare so much better against the same offenses that Fraziers #1 and #2 ranked defenses perform so badly against. Not to mention the 13 seconds and OT lay-down last year where we gave up 17 points in the final 2 minutes of that game and OT. I mean Kelce utterly schooled Frazier on national TV in those 13 seconds mocking his defense while mic'd up and said hit me in the seem if they are just gonna play it like that...which they did, and which Mahomes and Kelce did with ease like it was 7 on 7 out there. THIS is why many of us want a change. Not a hot take, not social media influence, not anything other than his continued postseason flops.

I don't understand why you keep going back to your blanket excuse of just saying they are "better teams" and completely ignoring the questions and facts presented to you about why does our better ranked defense fare worse than their much lower ranked defenses against the same teams. We are in a thread discussing Frazier and the Defense, yet you won't actually address any direct points made to you or questions presented to you about the defensive stuff. You just keep saying "well those teams are just better teams" which has no substance to it other than to dodge what is actually being discussed. All good, no ill will what so ever, but I give up. I can only ask you the same question so many times without getting an answer.

No, I am trying to get clear on what you are actually saying. Let me recap...so far you told me its not Frazier, but then immediately blamed coaching for the defense not being better and players not being good enough. Now you tell me that Bengals and Chiefs low ranked defenses were better than the Bills #1 and #2 ranked defenses...but still don't want to blame Frazier. It's not personal, I have no issue with you what so ever...I am just not at all following how you can keep giving Frazier a pass but yet still pretty much say things that all point right back at Frazier. I have not said a word about anyone other than Frazier. So your guess is wrong. I am only talking about Frazier who gave up 107 points in 3 games to teams who would lose the next week and combine for 53 points in those losses against MUCH lesser defenses than ours. How does that keep happening if it's not tied to scheme, game plan, play calling etc?

So let me get this straight. You are saying the 16th ranked Bengals defense last year was better than our #1 ranked defense? And you are saying that the 17th ranked Chiefs defense this year was better than our #2 ranked defense? This is your reasoning and logic to justify keeping Frazier? Saying his top ranked defenses are not as good as the middle of the pack defenses? That sure seems like a reason to get rid of Frazier rather than keep him. Also you don't seem to understand we are talking about the defensive performances here. You keep saying we lost to the best...thats a whole team comment.

Nope. Not at all accurate. No offense, but this is maybe the worst post I have ever seen you make, and honestly pretty insulting to say it’s because of social media I want him gone. What a bunch of utter nonsense. I don’t give 2 craps about social media and it has exactly zero influence over me. You act like it’s one game and suddenly people want him fired. This is 3 years Gunner…three years. Over that span our defense gave up 107 points and 1403 yards in those playoff losses. And the last seasons we had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses. You don’t get to just dismiss that and say “people just want heads on spikes because of social media”. You’ve been a Frazier apologizer and excuse maker for a while now, so I get you are going to not agree with moving on from him. But that doesn’t mean others can’t feel different without insulting those opinions and saying we are just influenced by social media…absurd. Let me be even more clear. I want him gone because his defense has surrendered 107 points to teams that ALL went on to LOSE their next game and only combine to score 53 points against MUCH lesser defenses. That’s literally less than half what we gave up to those same teams one week prior. Instead of insulting people, why don’t you explain why our top ranked defenses suck so bad in these playoff losses to teams whose offense gets shut down the very next week by much lower ranked defenses and lose the next game. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expecting different results. There is a reason he isn’t getting any HC interest despite not even being under contract. He had a bad stint as a HC in Minnesota and teams have watched high ranked his defense roll over in big games, then watched those same teams get shut down the next week by lesser defenses.

Last year Bengals 16th ranked defense handled Mahomes just fine. Fraziers #1 ranked defense gave up 42 points. This year Chiefs 17th ranked defense handled Bengals just fine. Fraziers #2 defense embarrassed themselves at home. Why are much lesser defenses doing just fine against those guys and Fraziers #1 and #2 defenses keep getting stomped by those guys?

I stated they were the number 2 ranked defense this year. Im not angry, I am just puzzled how you can absolve Frazier. You also for some reason keep contradicting yourself. You have literally stated to me it’s not Fraziers fault while then following that up blaming “coaching” for our defenses issues and lack of player development. I mean not only is Frazier a coach, he is the top coach for the defense as the DC. So how can you defend Frazier and yet still say it’s the coaches fault? I’ve also asked you why Fraziers defense has given up 107 points and 1403 yards in the last playoff losses and somehow escape any responsibility. Which you haven’t yet answered. Fun Facts: Did you know that all 3 teams (Chiefs, Chiefs, and Bengals) that scored 107 points and 1403 yards of offense in our last playoff losses went on to LOSE their next game? And did you know those teams combined for 53 points and 1034 yards in those 3 losses? And that all but one of those defenses they faced were SIGNIFICANTLY ranked lower than the Bills? It’s time to move on from Frazier.

I get that, but this is just too early. We don't know who we are keeping, losing, or gaining via draft/FA. Same for all the other teams. There are teams in the playoffs that wont be next year and vice versa. Just feels like a sneaky disguised way to hide the intent of being another negative thread to look at what seems like a tough schedule right now ahead of a lot of changes for the Bills where we will be losing some key starters one way or another.

I think this game is going resemble a lot of the Bucs vs Chiefs game. I think the Eagles defensive pressure is going to swarm Mahomes and disrupt the offense quite a bit. Eagles 31 - Chiefs 17

No offense...BUT...This thread is a fail both in timing and structure. First, you were too lazy to even post the list of opponents for people to reference to give a reflective answer. And two, any answer today is meaningless given we have no idea how our roster is going to change or our opponents rosters given the offseason hasn't even started yet. Teams drastically change from year to year across the NFL.

LOL...talk about skewing the answers to get you the result you want. This poll is a fail

I don't think this is a question. It's clearly intended to be Shakir. That is what they drafted him for, to be the slot guy moving forward. It is his job to lose. We had Diggs and Davis, then everyone else were slot guys. Yet stupid Dorsey tried to be an air out and push the ball downfield offense despite having like a dozen slot WR's on this team lol. That will not be the case this year, they will add another outside WR and thin the slot position. Shakir and likely McKenzie (since he is under contract one more year and cheap) will battle it out for the starting role, it will go to Shakir with McKenzie back to what he does best, a gadget player used in specific packages and scenarios. It's not out of the question they ditch McKenzie via trade/cut and maybe bring Crowder back to battle it out with Shakir. But I think it's still more likely to be McKenzie given Crowders unreliable injury history combined with how much the team loves McKenzie and being under contract one more year.

A guy to look out for IMHO is LB Azeez Al-Shaair of the 49ers. He could be a much cheaper Edmunds replacement. This is assuming we don't resign Edmunds. And if I am Beane, I am looking at all the money and picks spent on the defense that netted the #1 and #2 ranked defenses the last 2 years yet still was abused in the postseason by KC and Cincy. Both of which went out to lose their very next games and saw their offenses shut down by lower ranked defenses. So at this point...if they insist on rolling with Frazier (foolishly) one more time, Beane might as well cut costs and sign a guy who can do a lot of things Edmunds does but for a lot cheaper. Then let Edmunds walk and go spend on OL and playmaker help for the offense instead.

Allen is going to get a bag of money. He isn't coming to Buffalo for pennies. Plenty of contenders can use a WR like him who several easily have the cap space to pay him. My fear is he will somehow end up in KC though, lets just hope that doesn't happen. He will have a lot of suitors if he becomes a cap casualty. The funny part is that he so much better than Mike Williams who is hurt more often and wildly inconsistent. If I was the Chargers, I would rather keep Allen and ditch Mike Williams. I said immediately when they signed Mike Williams to that new contract they would regret it and it was gonna cost them other good players.

Ok, then I don't get your point...you are saying its the coaches, but yet you want to give the Defensive Coordinator a pass? Not trying to be difficult here, but how does that even make sense? Also, we were the #2 ranked Defense in the NFL with Tre missing half the season and not being himself. And he was slowly getting better, meaning Tre in the playoffs was a little better than the Tre in regular season where we were the #2 ranked defense. We were the #2 ranked defense with all those problems you said above. We were the #1 ranked defense last year. Yet come playoff time, for the third year in a row, Fraziers defense was exposed and abused by either KC or Cincy. Both teams who would go on the very next week in each of those 3 years to lose their very next game by their next opponent with a LOWER ranked defense than us shutting them down. So again...how are you giving Frazier a pass here? His defense has allowed an average of 36 points and almost 500 yards of offense per game in the last 3 playoff losses to KC and CIncy. And like I said, those very same KC and Cincy teams literally lost their very next game after clobbering us by seeing their offense get shut down by worse defenses. Frazier needs to go, and its not even a question in my personal opinion. As if the choke job of 13 seconds and OT wasn't bad enough...his defensive game plan was horrid against Cincy (in both the partial game and playoff game). Playing literally 10 yards off those talented WR's on critical 3rd and 4 while literally everyone else presses their WR's was literally inexcusable. I would have fired him in the tunnel as we walked off the field after that stupidity. And according to Tim Graham, McD was screaming to change this when he saw them lined up like that before the snap and wasn't happy with the call. Fool me once...shame on you. Fool me twice...shame on me. Fool me three times, then I am the fool. Frazier's defense has crapped the bed in 3 straight postseason losses. And that is 100% why despite fielding the #1 and #2 ranked defense the last 2 years, even with all the injuries we had, he is literally getting zero Head Coaching interviews despite not even being under contract right now.