Alphadawg7

Hate Josh Allen? I might actually be his biggest fan. But facts are facts...we had guys wide open on our final series and we didn't make the plays to get them the ball. So for people to pretend we lost this game all because we didn't have a Chase, Jefferson, etc type player is just not reflective of what actually happened.

One, that point is irrelevant as the actual point was 2 guys on the routes they were assigned by our OC were wide open in Shakir and Kincaid. Second, I disagree, it was 4th and 5 and the defenders were way off Shakir and he has made that play to convert for a first a bunch of times as he is a dawg with the ball in his hands, especially with that kind of cushion and only needing about 3 yards from where he would have caught it. Regardless if you want to debate Shakir, Kincaid was still wide open 30 yards down field without a defender remotely near him if Allen can set and make a clean pass. Once again, it was not personnel, we had 2 guys wide open. So to attribute our non conversion to the WR group we we had a ball batted down at the LOS where he had an open WR, and then we end with 2 guys wide open but the wrong protection called is just not at all accurate. Yet...if we had just one player on defense that could have prevented just one 3rd down conversion...literally make just one play more than we did in that game...that gets us off the field instead of allowing a scoring drive, then that is one less score we give up and we win the game...not to mention, that would have also put the ball back in Allen and the offenses hands to give them another shot at a scoring drive. Rather than expect my QB and the offense to have to be perfect for entire drives to win games...I would rather just find one guy who can make one more play or two on on defense throughout an entire game.

Those were the players...you can say that about every single game and every single team. Having a 3rd party like the refs completely alter the game is out of the players and coaches control. And once again, if you don't want lose close games then maybe field a defense that doesnt give up 35 PPG to a team that loses the very next week scoring an average of 17 PPG.

Im certainly not a blame the refs kind of guy, but facts are facts in this game. It was the 4th quarter, it was big a gaff as it gets in a game and it without question changed the course of that game drastically. Allen and the OL guys all said Allen shifted the coverage to the wrong side...there are only two sides...right or wrong, they chose the wrong one because as you said Spags called a great play. But you are missing the entirety of the point...we didn't fail on that last drive because Jamar Chase wasnt on the team, I mean Shakir who has some of the most reliable hands in the league was wide open and Kincaid, a TE was wide open down field. Josh got a poor pass off in duress because of protection was shifted to the opposite side giving the defense a free release at Allen, not WR personnel issues. And we would have not even been in a 4th down had Josh not had his pass knocked down at LOS to an open Samuel on that same series. So...that is why I keep pushing back when people want to hold the WR group accountable for this loss when it really isn't rooted in reality. Our guys were open, Josh did not get them the ball because he had a pass knocked down, I believe he also missed a throw on another down, and the protection was to the wrong side and Allen didn't see a wide open Shakir and then threw a prayer to what was a wide open Kincaid had he been able to get a clean pass off. This is my entire point of the offseason, what you said right here. When your margin of error is small...and why do you think our margin of error is so small? Because 29 points is not enough...or because our defense has given up an average of 35 PPG to the Chiefs in playoff losses who 3 times went on to lose the next game and average just 17 PPG in those 3 losses? When your defense is bottom of the league in 3rd down conversion, first downs allowed, etc...you are making your QB have to be perfect or near perfect with the smallest of errors. And worse yet, when you have small margins of errors windows, coaching because massively impactful, like how Spags for just one play just had to out coach our guys.

And they didn't win the SB until they rebuilt their defense into the #1 defense in the NFL and added a RB who put up one of the greatest seasons in history.

They needed that play because the refs flipped the game when they stole our first down twice on the same series. That was an 11 to 15 point swing in a game we lost by 3. And it was Josh Allen who shifted the protection to the wrong side. You do know that he had Samuel open on that series but had a pass knocked down at LOS. He then had both Shakir and Kincaid wide open on 4th down, one short for sure first down and one deep for a huge play and it was Allen who didn't make the play because he shifted the protection to the wrong side. So no, it wasn't that we needed Chase...we needed the refs to not F us and then we needed Allen to not shift the coverage to wrong side because he had 2 guys wide open. Eagles got back to the SB and won it because they rebuilt one of the worst defenses into the number 1 defense in the NFL this year and added an MVP worthy RB who had one of the greatest single seasons in history didn't hurt either.

Agree, no way Duke makes that TD...but the point is the TD haul had no impact on the game result as it was a blow out with or without that play. And if they don't score on that one pass doesn't mean they dont still score a different way that same drive with AJ, Saquan, Goeddert, Hurts on the team still. I don't agree though that it changes much about AJ Brown as the same players are covering AJ Brown whether Smith is in the game or not. Gotcha and yeah, that is who I thought you were referring to when you mentioned they didn't make an impact out the gate. My counters was that Kincaid did come out the gate strong though as he had the 4th most Receptions by a rookie TE in NFL history and 10th most yards. His 2nd year wasn't the step we all expected in this offense, but he did come out strong as a rookie and seemed on a strong trajectory to where our expectations were noticeably higher this year for him. And personally I think Keon was starting to do so before he got hurt which then seemed to kind of set him back. I do agree with you that we need them to keep developing and take another step this year as part of our young core of the offense. And I personally have confidence they can, especially once we inevitably add a downfield threat to the mix to shore up what the offense is missing. Kincaid it turns out did have some knee issues inhibiting him this season as well, so I do think injuries were a factor in both their seasons this year too. I think both will benefit from being healthy again and having someone who can threaten downfield which I am certain we will add this offseason. If we land a big fish like Higgins or a trade for DK, then they should benefit greatly. But I also think they will benefit a lot from someone like Hollywood Brown, Slayton or a rookie who is capable of contributing early.

No disrespect bud, but when didn't it work? We put up 29 in the AFCCG against a stingy defense with one of the top DC's and against a team that had not scored 30 themselves the whole season. And consider this...in the 4th, the Bills were already in FG range and up 1 with a chance to get a TD and go up 2 scores. Instead the refs stole the possession from us, not once, but twice within the same 4 down series. Kincaid had the first on 2nd down and then Allen again got the first on the 4th down. In both plays one ref spotted the first and was overturned by another ref. Chiefs would turnaround and score a TD and 2 point conversion making this at minimum an 11 point swing in the 4 quarter and quite possibly a 15 point swing (if we had continued on for a TD) in a game we scored 29 in and still lost by 3. And honestly, saying it works until it doesn't is something you can say about every team who loses a game in the playoffs about any topic you want about said team. Because whatever they did worked until it didn't when their season ended.

I get why you are making the comparison, but he is better than Price IMHO as he has shown that when he was the WR1 at times due to injuries and still producing at top end WR1 levels.

Im not going to help you be a fan. Some things are best discovered on your own

Really lol? You don't know this info? I have to help you be a fan now by catching you up on all the accomplishments our NFL MVP had? Sometimes I wonder if you are really a huge Bills fan or just a fan of arguing about the Bills, because as a die hard Bills fan I find it shocking you don't already know this info.

Nobody has ever said you didn't...its the degree to how much a team needs to leverage at the position that is being discussed. Some believe we need to give up anything and as much cap as possible to go get an elite one or we cant win...and that is just never been the case.

Well we were discussing this before the season began...and did the Eagles really do this? Because they have had AJ and DeVonta in the seasons past and didn't win the SB. Last year with an atrocious defense they didn't get close. Weird thing happened...Eagles added Saquan and put together the #1 defense in the NFL and poof...back in the SB and that defense dismantled KC just like the Bucs did. And despite scoring 40, the offense didn't put up gaudy production because the defense made that possible for them. So this isn't the evidence you think it is 16th best offense in NFL history and best in Bills history. But he won because "his cast was weak"? Allen set multiple individual records...the offense set multiple team records. But he only won because his "cast was weak"? The mental gymnastics you will try and do to push for your "Jamar Chase" is getting more creative at least lol

To answer your question...False...in no reality is saying a guy who has gone to 3 straight SB's with a rag tag of weapons as "falling off a cliff". You gotta understand how crazy that sounds, especially when his entire WR group kept getting hurt this year and he still carried them to a 3rd straight SB, although I do still say the refs are the reason he got by Buffalo this year. PS: The 2 seasons before they traded Hill...blown out in SB and shut down in AFCCG by Bengals. So what do you think Mahomes cares more about? His stats or his SB trophies? It does however describe Cam Newton with pin point accuracy 😉

No one is going to objet to Allen taking less hits, but my point is that its always going to be part of his game because that is how Allen plays regardless. But, we would all prefer he take as few as possible. No that makes no sense. Allen will be the first to tell you that his MVP was only possible because the guys around him. Allen won MVP because everyone, especially Allen, bought into the style of play, the philosophy, etc and he stopped being wreckless with the ball, stopped trying to always force it downfield when there was a smarter play to be made to guys who were open. Basically he started incorporating a lot of what another Brady, Tom Brady, has been saying to him for years. No not at all what I said. I never said that no team with a high paid WR ever won a SB. I said show me a team that went out and spent a fortune to both trade for and pay a WR big money that then turned around and won a SB when people were advocating for such a move for Aiyuk and other rumored available players via trade. I also pointed out the infrequency of top 5 WR's on SB winning teams the past 30 years during the passing era showing that it was not the "get it and win it" solution everyone was making it out to be. Sorry, don't buy you were referencing Mahomes and not Cam lol That is fine, but you are missing the point of others. No one is saying WR's don't matter...we all know we need to add another guy there. The push back is that we don't need a "Chase" caliber WR like so many keep pushing for as our "missing piece". Well this is where we differ...Shakir is a key piece to this offense and easily the most clutch player for Josh to throw to by a mile. Keeping him is important to the offense, and without any gaudy WR contracts he is more than affordable especially with the increasing cap. Shakir can be even better once we add someone who can stretch the field and even further open up where Shakir does his best work.

There is your original quote here above, and it came after you discussing the punishment Allen takes as a runner... Come on man lol, you don't really expect anyone to think that is Mahomes you are discussing and not Cam Newton do you? Either this is the worst description of Mahomes I have ever seen, or this is clearly Cam Newton you are discussing.

Josh took less punishment this year than any season he has been a pro, so this is just taking one play, a play where Josh did not have to do what he did but still did it in the first game of the season and exaggerating it to represent something the season wasn't. There will never be a season in Allens prime where he doesn't take some hits, that is just never going to change even if we had Moss, Rice, and Megatron as our 3 WR's. I mean this is exactly what I said would happen if the Bills still had a top 5 offense (ended up being #1 in AFC and 16th best all time) that the doom and gloomers would just again say "Its all Allen". And lets be real, if Allen and the Bills had this exact same season but had a "Chase" like WR on the team, you would instead be saying see I told you he needed that elite WR. The truth is, no matter what the offense accomplishes...no matter Josh accomplishes...you and others will say "Its all Josh" until you get the WR's you want. Only then will you guys start to give credit to others, when the others are the players you want. Oh come on man, even you know that Cam Newton is not remotely close to Josh as an actual QB. This lazy and played out comparison needs to stop. Yes, they can be dangerous runners of the football in both an athletic and a physical way, but the similarities literally stop there. Newtons game went south because he didn't have the ability to play at a high level as his physical advantages started to shift. Yet...Josh Allen has been 10x more durable than Burrow. Bengals have missed the playoffs 2 years in a row where Allen and Bills have been the 2nd seed both those years. Bills were a ref screw job away from reaching the SB this year when the Bengals can't even make the playoffs. The Bills scored more points than the Bengals despite the Bengals having no defense and had to throw all year and had to go balls to the wall every game and for all 17 games...while the Bills coasted in the 2nd half of many games as they had the most wins by 20+ in NFL history and Allen sat week 17. Allen also won his first MVP, Burrow hasn't even been a legit finalist for one. So yeah, doesn't seem like Allen "needed" Chase by any stretch of the imagination. Meanwhile...Chiefs final 2 seasons with Hill...Blown out in SB by Bucs defense and shut down by Bengals in AFCCG. 3 years after trading Hill and having no "Chase" they had 3 straight SB births with 2 wins. Patriots with no Chase and JAG WR's, 6 Super Bowl wins...with the GOAT Moss plus Welker ...no SB wins and shut down in the Super Bowl. Bills with prime Diggs only even reached the AFCCG once in 2021. Without Diggs, Josh MVP and Bills were a screw job away from the SB thanks to the refs flipping the game in the 4th taking 2 first downs away on the same 4 down series. The only thing shocking is how you still want to insist we do "need" a Chase. Would it be great if we drafted someone that turned into a comparable to Chase, absolutely...to still continue to insist we "need" one when all facts, statistics, and history say we don't is mind boggling. I mean he is better than Edelman and the Pats won 3 SB's with Edelman. And as I mentioned above, 0-2 with Moss and Welker getting shut down and losing to a mediocre Giants team twice. So yea, I would pay him that if that is what it took. But I also do not think he will cost that much, I do think there will be a discount to stay with the Bills as Shakir loves it in Buffalo, loves his teammates, loves Allen, loves the organization, etc. He is motivated to stay here and the Bills are motivated to keep him. More importantly, Shakir is a physical receiver and on a 5th round rookie contract. It will be risky for him to play his deal out and get to FA because an injury impacting his season this year could severely impact his FA value the following year. So there is a lot at risk for him to play under this same deal this year given his style of play. So Shakir and his team will be motivated to get a deal done now and take less vs what he might get as a FA another year from now because it gives him the financial security he lacks right now for him and his family. I think 3 years and will come somewhere between $45M or the low 50's.

Key role though? I mean this is the same SB where the Chiefs were losing 34-0 at one point thanks to the smothering DL of the Eagles. No disrespect Beck, but Duke Williams could have replaced DeVonta Smith that game and KC still gets slaughtered. Also, I am confused by your statement of Bills being 0-2 in getting immediate contributions on 1st and 2nd round receivers. Who are the 1st and 2nd round guys? They spent a first to get Diggs and he was a stud out the gate, and in the draft the only other WR they took in those rounds was Keon. Keon made some plays and an injury derailed him ans he was starting to emerge. And if the other is Kincaid, out the gate he had the 4th most receptions and 10th most yards for a rookie TE in NFL history. So he came out the gate pretty good. 0 Not only no playoffs, but only one of those 4 teams actually made the playoffs in the last 2 years. Out of the 4, the Bengals have missed the last 2 years and Miami missed this year.

Bills used their first round pick on Keon. There is no reality where that isn’t true just because you want to use semantics where the Panthers gave us a free pick to move 1 more pick back changing the technicality of what round that actual pick got booked in. The reality is the Bills had a first round pick and turned it into Keon whether it was pick 28, 32 or 33 is absolutely irrelevant. If it makes you sleep better at night to say “Bills first pick” instead of “first round pick” because you want to pretend we didn’t actually take our first rounder and use it to get an offensive player, then you do you.

I didn't say I was against signing him, but he isn't going to sign for anything close to $20M. Spotrac has Shakir at like $19.7M (although I think he signs on a home town discount for less). Higgins is the only high quality WR on the market. Next best is Cooper who is a class below Higgins. And I didn't say he was worth $30M, but that doesn't mean he won't still get closer to $30M than $20M. I mean Christian Kirk who was far less accomplished than Higgins got $20M per when he signed with the Jags and that was like 3 years ago. $25M is about what I think he is worth, but I think there is a reasonable chance he can get more, probably like $27M+ per

Higgins isn't signing for $20M or anything close to that. He is gonna get high 20's or maybe even 30M per.

Shakir is going to get extended, Josh and the staff absolutely love him, and I think it happens this offseason personally. Bernard if I had to guess probably gets extended, but he isn't as certain as I would have previously thought. Benford and Cook are questionable based on contract demands. We all know what is going on with Cook right now, I have a hard time believing Beane is going to cave to his antics and make him one of the highest paid RB's in the league. I mean he is a 2 down back who is a liability in pass protection to the point he comes off the field for a journeyman RB in Ty. And he isn't doing himself any favors IMHO choosing to handle it this way and so publicly out the gate. I mean Beane has shown to be fair to his guys and pay to keep guys that earn those next deals. For Cook to take this approach now, this early, is just off putting IMHO and I am not sure Beane is going to appreciate these antics either. If $10.2M would get it done, then yes, I would say he probably gets extended, but he seems to want a lot more than that. Benford I have a feeling he is going to get a top 5 CB contract...and the question is two fold - Is he worth that and will Beane pay that. I am not sure about either of those answers, but I do hope we can get a bit of a hometown discount and find a way to reasonably keep him.

Hahaha - Well played

What does that have to do with anything we are discussing? I mean you really want to discuss a WR that had 20 catches in 8 games and averaged 37 yards per game? And Cooper came here and fully bought into the everybody eats style of offense too. But hey...lets disregard the greatest offense in Bills history, 16th best in NFL history, Allens first MVP, the numerous offensive records this team set, the most points scored in the NFL this year...and go back to the old ways because you don't care about how many points we scored and only seem to care about "how" or "who" scores the points. That is what makes sense? I can assure you that no one person inside the Bills organization is entering this offseason thinking "we need to change the offense back to the old ways" and feed one alpha WR every game to the tune of 160 targets a year.

Yet the whole team bought into it, became the 16th greatest offense of all time, was historically great, set numerous offensive reocrds, Allen had his most effective season and won MVP, we exceeded all expectations going 13-3 with Allen, won our division and got the 2 seed and went further in the playoffs than we have in 5 years and missed a SB thanks to refs stealing the game in the 4th.