Alphadawg7

Not an apples to apples comparison. The last time Frazer was the DC against KC in the playoffs the defense gave up 42 points, including 17 points in the final 2 min of the game and OT. This year the defense was missing a lot and still amongst the league leaders in sacks, interceptions, takeaways, and point differential and held KC in the playoffs to 27 points including holding KC to no points the final 2 KC drives before Buffalo missed both the go ahead TD followed by the missed game tying FG try. And this defense fielded guys off the street at LB against a team who makes a living attacking LB's offensively. And even then, if not for Dawkins stepping on Allens foot on the 2nd and 9 play, we go up 4 and might have won the game. Not to mention the Shefield dropps, Diggs monster drop, etc. So...not the same result of watching a Frazier led D crap the bed in the post season IMHO.

Good convo...very much enjoying the discussion. But I gotta ask, what history does Shannahan have of elevating QB's? I just don't get this myth about him. Ryan had equivalent seasons to his MVP year without Kyle who had nothing to do with Ryans development or career success. Schaub earned the starting job before Kyle was the OC and it was Kubiak who got all the praise and credit for Schaub and his development that started before Kyle was OC and remained after Kyle left. Kyle was a bust in Washington and Cleveland before landing an easy gig with a top 10, probably top 5 QB at the time in Ryan with a loaded offense where he was for only 2 seasons before moving on to SF. Rodgers won an MVP with Hackett, I think we can agree that it doesn't mean Hacketts system makes all QB's look good. Since becoming HC in 2017 in SF the QB position has been a disaster and seen as the sole reason they don't have multiple SB titles right now. They passed up drafting Mahomes, Watson, Lamar to roll with guys like Nick Mullens and CJ Bethard. They passed up signing Tom Brady, Geno Smith (multiple times) or trading for Stafford all to keep Jimmy G who was hurt every one of his 6 years in SF but one. The only QB they took a swing on was Lance who they spent 3 first round picks on and Kyle couldn't develop him enough to even compete with Mr. Irrelevant Purdy. He has done such a bad job finding QB talent in 7 years in SF, that people actually said Sam Darnold was the most talented one he has had since arriving in SF and could win the starting job over Trey and Purdy this year. Shannahan gets way way way too much credit for "Schaub and Ryan" and some how gets a pass on all the failures he has had at QB at every other stop, especially SF. And while it's fair to say those parts of the last 2 games were not Purdy's best, he still led comebacks in two huge playoff games on the biggest stage that led his team to the Super Bowl. Something 30 other QB's didn't do. And honestly, if people are gonna do that with Purdy and say "well he wasn't very good in parts of 2 games" that he won, then that needs to be done with every QB because all of them had parts of games or whole games where they didn't play well. For me, I just feel like if Purdy had been a first round pick and was exactly the same person he is now, they would be saying he is the next best thing. But because he was the last pick in the draft, people are saying it must be Shannahans system that "makes all QB's look good"...except of course for every SF QB that has stepped on the field since 2017 not named Purdy.

Wow @whorlnutI cant even imagine, my congolences, thoughts, and prayers go out to you and your family during this tough time. She will live forever within you and your families hearts.

Thanks for reply bud...I get you are not sold on Purdy yet, which is totally fair...but comparing him to "Prime Jimmy G" and claiming Jimmy G looked like a franchise QB is puzzling to me and I have no idea where you are getting that from. For example, when was "Prime Jimmy G" an MVP candidate avg 9.6 ypa, leading the NFL in passer rating, QBR, and leading or top 5 in many other passing categories? "Prime Jimmy G" once won a playoff game throwing like 3 passes because Kyle didn't want him touching the ball. Honestly Jimmy G never looked like a franchise QB and never approached the level of play Purdy has, never reached 4000 yards his best season he had 27 TD's. Jimmy G in his best season as a pro was a game manager, Purdy in his first full season is an MVP finalist. The Niners were undefeated under Purdy last year and averaged 11 PPG more than they did with Jimmy G. The offense substantially benefited from the significant improvement Purdy brought to pocket awareness, pocket movement, and poise over Jimmy G who has some of the worst pocket awareness and movement amongst starters in the NFL. Kittle even became a real weapon again under Purdy where he had to be an extra blocker more often under Jimmy G to try and buy him more time because he needed the help. Don't get your points on Schaub or Ryan either. One I am pretty sure you never saw prime Matt Schaub play because that was before when you told you me you started watching the NFL. He was a pretty good QB, and he showed that potential the year before Kyle became OC and continued that level play when Kyle left shortly after. Schaub's biggest issue post Kyle was he had some seasons where he missed chunks of games from injuries, but he was still mostly the same QB with and without Kyle when he was healthy. And Ryan was very good before Kyle and remained very good after Kyle who was just there 2 seasons. In fact, Ryan practically replicated his MVP season in 2018 two years after Kyle left Atlanta. So to credit Kyle with Ryans success is just not accurate. Truth is, Shannahan first place to find and develop a QB was SF and he flamed out on every QB in SF before Purdy, including Jimmy G and a kid they invested 3 first round picks into. They paid Jimmy G as if he was a franchise QB just to see him be more of a liability and a mediocre game manager never to break 4000 yards. His poor pocket awareness and movement are probably a big reason why he struggled to stay healthy too leaving him only breaking 3000 yards even as a passer just twice in his career. Its too early to know how Purdy's career finishes...but his first season and a half has been so much better than what Jimmy G was for 6 seasons in SF and really is probably the only true QB success story you can fully attribute to Shannahan.

I get that’s where you’re coming from, that seems to be the stance of most people critical of him. But…To be fair, 2 of those guys are among the best, if not the best at their positions and could be in the HOF when their careers end and the other is maybe the most dynamic WR in the NFL. And all 3 are major parts of the SF offense and game plan. Most QBs are gonna struggle in that scenario. Also, in one of those games, despite missing those guys Purdy led a game winning drive that their rookie kicker missed the game winning FG. And Purdy had still not even played a full season yet too. Stroud as a sensational rookie had some bad games too. People forget how young Purdy still is. To expect essentially a rookie in terms of games played to be great still in his first games without the Niners 3 best players around him is asking more of him than some of the other guys.

For me, when the Bills aren’t in it or not a fan of the teams, just make it about friends and good times more than football

@GunnerBillcurious, now after leading his team back from a 7 point deficit in the 4th quarter and pouring rain last week and leading his team back from a 17 point deficit this week to make the SB, has your view of Purdy improved even a little?

Why? I don’t get some of you here. It’s the biggest football game of the year. You got Mahomes chasing greatness. You got Mr Irrelevant trying to silence the doubters and beat the odds. And you got Super Bowl parties with friends and gambling. Sounds like a pretty good time to me.

Purdy. What a story he will be

I get that, I’m not as sold on Love or Purdy enough yet to truly define who I would take, but Love obviously makes a lot of sense given the physical abilities. Then again, 2 of the GOATS were not as physically gifted as many of their piers in Montana and Brady. I do think neither team would trade for the other QB and both teams are better having the guy they do have.

This is a great year to be going after receivers, I’m pretty excited to see how this plays out. There are gonna be some studs found outside round 1 too.

You are right, I do agree with you about Love. I didn’t even realize I ranked him as low as I did. Love should be in the next tier with Tua and company. I’m gonna make the edit now. Based in the rest of your comment, if I move Love to tier 3 I am assuming the only difference with your list is you probably swap Purdy with Love making Purdy tier 3 and Love tier 2. With my wife being a hard core Niners fan, I watched every game. And I think Purdy makes a lot more wow throws than people realize. His 9.8 ypa is just insane too. So for me, I just can’t bring Purdy down a tier at this time. I get he had a couple struggle games, but so did every QB on the list and Purdy is still in his first full year. His ranking for me is fluid given his sample size is still small, just can’t ignore how impressed I was with him the majority of the time and the kind of dimes he was throwing most the season. But also get it if someone isn’t ready to elevate to tier 2 yet.

The problem is the only team that has a better 5 year resume is KC and is often standing in our way

Agree that tiers are a good way to do it, but couple issues in your tiers. Lawrence is the most over rated player in the NFL, he just isn't that good and you have guys better than him ranked with or below him. Tua, Purdy, and Stroud all better than him. Stroud is already better than the guys you have him in tier with and he is a tier too low. Purdy is better than he gets credit for and he is 2 tiers too low. Tier 1 - Mahomes, Josh, Lamar, Burrow Tier 2 - Herbert,, Purdy, Dak, Stroud, Stafford Tier 3 - Love, Tua, Hurts, Goff, Rodgers (can't drop him too low until we actually see him fall off a cliff...he might still be Tier 1 or 2 when he plays again even) Tier 4 - Cousins, Lawrence, Baker Tier 5 - Everyone else and below. To answer the OP question: Top 10 for me is: Mahomes Allen Burrow Lamar Herbert Stafford Stroud Purdy Dak Tua Stroud and Purdy have limited sample sizes, but I am basing this on who was top 10 this season, not top 10 careers. And Purdy led the NFL in a lot of passing categories and Stroud really had a pretty sensational rookie season. To be honest, I almost moved Stafford to 8 to so I could move both Stroud and Purdy one spot higher each. A case can be made to move both Dak and Tua up based on stats, but those stats lose value for me when you weigh how much better their stats were at home when facing bad defenses and teams compared to winning teams and/or on the road. These guys just don't get it done or put the stats up unless the matchup conditions are easy, so those year end totals on stats become less impressive for me. The guys ahead of them have all shown they can beat good teams too, not just the bad ones.

Sending prayers, positive thoughts, and hope that she has a full and speedy recovery.

Hahaha well that’s was a good place to stop And I get what you’re trying to say, just I think the whole “cap is a myth” thing gets over used because it’s just not accurately accounting for all the turnover we have to entail and future ramifications. Yes, it’s always possible to get back under, it’s just people seem to forget that still comes with a cost of losing players and causing future cap issues to mitigate. If it was truly a myth, it wouldn’t cost us players, or keep us from resigning FA’s nor cause future cap implications.

That doesn’t even make sense

No disrespect, you are a great poster, but this is just flat out incorrect. You can't tell PART of a story to say something is a myth. You have completely left out the future ramifications of many of these moves that kick the can down the road. The cap is a now and future impact...only focusing on what you can do for ONE year doesn't tell anything close to the whole story. Secondly, you are conveniently leaving off the fact that the Bills have 23 Free Agents this year, 1 player away from half their roster. Thridly, in this cap fix situation you are releasing 2 more in your No Brainers, 2 more in your Preferred one, 2 more in your Painful, and 3 more in your Prefer not. So that means in every scenario the Bills have OVER half the roster to replace because you are cutting 2 to 9 more players depending how far they were to go in your 4 options above. And many of the FA's are starters or significant role players on defense and many of your cuts are key starters as well on both sides of the ball. So yay...you got under the cap, but your team is completely gutted, you still need money held over to pay your rookies, you pushed a bunch of cap hell down the road, and you don't really have very much money to replace nearly 30 players, about 20 of which were starters or relevant rotational players. Again no disrespect, but I hard disagree with your "cap is a myth" which is just false and unfortunately this post does nothing to prove it is a myth. The cap is VERY much impacting this team and is going to result in us losing good players we cant retain in FA and possibly making some tough cuts too. Then we need to find all those replacements in one offseason for a team that still wasn't good enough to get past KC before all that roster turnover. Reality is, this team is going to be VERY young this year as we will need a lot of our 10 draft picks to probably start as rookies or play heavy roles because of our cap. Cap is not a myth.

Im not out on McD, we could do a LOT worse. But I am also not all in on McD anymore either. My view, is if we can get a perceived upgrade then I am all for it. First of all, for those who want a change just because they want some unproven OC because they FALSELY think that means the offense would be more aggressive...well that is just wrong. McD has been one of the most aggressive HC's in football, he wants big plays, he wants potent passing attack, he goes for it on 4th down a lot, even in risky field position scenarios, he goes for the TD more than the FG and has OFTEN passed up FG attempts in Bass range to go for it on 4th and longer than 1 or 2 yards. Our offense is NOT conservative in any fashion. Our defense was NOT conservative under McD this year. So to just make a switch because you THINK the offense will be more aggressive...well odds are actually it will be less aggressive as many coaches are not nearly as aggressive as McD. So then why switch? Well there is a case to be made that sometimes even good HC and teams just plateau. Doesn't mean that HC isn't capable of getting to the SB and winning it, but sometimes, a change is just needed to rejuvenate and tweak the roster to get over the hump. But that also means you NEED to hit on that next HC, and gambling on an unproven HC is a big risk for a team like ours that is right on the cusp. What to do at HC here then? Well we saw our OC was an issue and the switch changed the whole course of the season. So you either let McD come back with the right staff around him for the full season or you find a SURE UPGRADE which would be a proven SB winning coach. For me...That would be Belichick. If BB wanted to come here, I would say lets do it. But if the option is to just go get some OC who is unproven as a HC, then forget it. Because now we need to find a great DC as well because its NOT been the offense stalling in the playoffs, its been the defense that just can't do anything against KC in the playoffs despite holding them down in the regular season. BB though is someone I feel a LOT more confident about putting a defensive gameplan out there to slow KC while our offense cooks. Otherwise...one more year of McD then hire BELICHICK next year because he sure doesn't look like he is coaching this season.

THIS BELOW! Great response @Dr. K! What a stupid thread...like for real. Nobody on this board has even the faintest idea of what coaching McD is doing, or any coach, in a game. News flash...coaches are not mic'd up. You don't know what he is discussing, what he is saying to players, what adjustments he is making. You literally know nothing other than the outcome of the game and then you all make up what ever you want to make up about what you THINK happened. Most this board is so dense they don't even know that McD isn't calling the offense in the game. I am not even saying McD is perfect or must stay...I am just saying this is just a pointless thread that has no answer to where the goal is start ANOTHER smear thread on McD because the OP felt his personal smear attempt needed everyones attention.

This is the post above you are responding to from me...the bolded is what I actually said which is different than what you claimed I said. Please show me where I said KC automatically was gonna win even if Bass makes the kick. So the only thing wrong here is you responding telling me I said KC was automatically going to win, which I didn't. What I said is that Bass is not the reason we lost the game. He didn't miss a game winner, he missed a kick to tie the game with plenty of time left for the other team to try and win in regulation. What Bass missed kick did was take away a chance to try and win the game later (again, game is tied if he makes the kick so we still need to get a stop and score again to win the game).

I’ve been saying this…but hopefully the stats here will start making people listen Good post, and yes our #2 target is already on this team between him and Kincaid. People don’t understand the difference between WR2 and the #2 WR. WR2 is a boundary WR, but they doesn’t mean he has to be your second best or most targeted WR. Hill was #1 WR in KC but Kelce a TE was their #2.

Agree, but I mean if Allen played that first season in KC his season would have looked a lot better than it did in Buffalo.

Do you not remember how bad the Bills roster was, especially at the offensive skill positions? Also, 2018 was Mahomes 2nd year where he had 2 full camps, 1 full season under his belt and played in one regular season game already. Plus he had 2 HOF weapons in Hill and Kelce with one of the greatest offensive minds and QB developers in history. Allen had squat...fat KB and a mentally shot Zay Jones who couldn't get open or catch.

Its one thing to bring him back, its another thing to survive cuts end of preseason.