San Jose Bills Fan

The problem is that no one can say with any certainty who the "1 and 2 star QBs" are. The first QBs taken might not necessarily be the best. It might turn out that the 3rd, 4th, or 5th QB taken ends up being the best to come from this draft. In that sense, the Bills are still sitting in pretty good shape at #8. Very good OP btw.

1) Morally the league at the very least has to/should have given the players honest information as they now, finally do. Players at this time can at least assess the risk, regardless of what they choose to do with it. 2) Numerous players (Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Kris Dielman, Randall Gay) have quit playing NFL football as a result of understanding the risks. It appears that Lions 2010 first founder Jahvid Best will retire from concussions after playing in only 15 regular season games in his career. In that sense your question is not relevant. The league has finally done the right thing and the players can make decisions armed with the best information possible. Some of them will retire due to an understanding of the risks. It doesn't matter how many.

This is a good start: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3644940 That's why I dropped his name upthread a few times. The linked story is from 2006.

Yeah it must have been Russ Lande that you and mikespeed heard. Lande was a scout for the Browns and the Rams. Like every scout, you can't/won't agree with everything he says but he has a lot more credibility than someone like Todd McShay IMO.

It was brought up. I believe it was SDS who envisioned that our world would eventually not include tackle football as we know it. At the time, I mentioned that at one point earlier in this century, that boxing, baseball, and horse racing were the three most popular sports. Things do change and football however wildly popular is not immune to societal forces. It's a problem? I think it's merely reality. For the longest time now our society has revolved around business and law. The tobacco industry has survived massive litigation. I don't think litigation is the biggest threat to the NFL. I believe the health threat to players (diminishing the talent pool) is. There's no saying that the NCAA won't be a defendant in future legal actions if they haven't already been. With the pretty recent increase in documentation of head injuries and the accompanying protocols, I foresee the NCAA definitely being defendants and/or co-defendants with the NFL in these cases. Your anger and emotion while real and understandable don't really have any place in the discussion. This is business and law. Cases with zero merit will probably be thrown out. Cases with strong merit will be heard. Some cases will reach a verdict and others will be settled out of court. The NFL denied that concussions were a threat to the players' health. They even said that there was no increased risk of another concussion in the aftermath of a first concussion. EVERYONE now knows that this is untrue. The NFL lied repeatedly and suppressed studies which conflicted with their own "studies" for over a decade. The other thing that people need to understand but largely don't is that when you talk about NFL players, you're talking about many different "classes." The people bringing up boxing in the 20s etc are missing that it was a given that boxing caused brain injuries but that football didn't have the same linkage. Guys used to wear leather helmets. They tackled with their shoulders. It wasn't until fairly recently (perhaps the Jack Tatum era circa 1970-80) that the nature of pro football changed towards a more violent and ruthless model. The use of the helmet as a weapon has been on the rise and with it concussions have slowly increased. My point about classes is that there are at least three different eras (classes) of players: 1) Those from eras who had zero understanding of head injuries. Every once in awhile you "got your bell rung" and your teammates would joke about it and tease you. Reading books like Instant Replay and Paper Lion, this was the extent of players understanding of head injuries at least through the early to mid 70s. 2) Those players who perhaps had some inkling about the seriousness of head injuries but were in denial about it both because they needed the job (money, prestige, ego) AND because the NFL told them that there was nothing to worry about. 3) Players who've come into the league within the last 5 years who would have to be as gullible and naive as Manti Te'o to think that head injuries are no big deal. I believe that there were some players including POSSIBLY Junior Seau who didn't realize the seriousness of head injuries until later in their careers. Remember, Seau was a rookie in 1990. That's over 20 years ago. I put Seau in the second class. Also in this second class were guys like Troy Aikman and Steve Young who both retired around 1999-2000. These guys suffered repeated concussions and were smart enough to leave the game. They clearly had some inkling and were not in denial like some of their contemporaries. This is another broad and deep issue which does not lend itself to shallow takes.

Correct. For many players over a certain time period (Dr. Elliott Pellman) the NFL told them that there was no risk and that they had nothing to worry about. Had the NFL not taken this position, the NFL would be completely free of responsibility. The fact that the NFL intentionally misled the players means that the NFL has SOME responsibility.

Again, my big things are 1) game speed and 2) top end. Holliday is scorchingly fast and their 40 times at the combine were very comparable but my conjecture is that Peterson at 6'2" is gonna outgun the 5'5" Holliday on plays longer than 40 yards. If you watch video of Peterson's combine 40, he's effortless through the distance, as if he's still got more top end.

I'm trying to think of the guys who are playing now who've jumped out at me as having great football speed and great top end on top of their quickness. The first name that came to mind was Patrick Peterson. That interception he made against the Bills this season was ridiculous as were a few of his return touchdowns last year. It seem like on one of the returns from 2011 he was spun around but was still running backwards faster than others were running forwards. His interception against the Bills was on a significantly overthrown ball and it was like watching Willie Mays chase one down in deep center. He swooped past the other players, caught it and then turned it back the other way.

That tape stuff is real sticky. In the specific case of the Kaepernick/Wilson discussion, I disagree with you guys. I also disagree with JohnC's comment about aggression in this particular case. IMO, where these players were selected made them very good risks and no aggression was needed to select them. They weren't taken in the first round. To the arm strength discussion, I tend to think that arm strength is usually overrated. That said, for his sake, I'm hoping Barkley did have a serious shoulder problem this season because of the video I've viewed on him from 2012, he has a rag arm. As in below average. I think a quarterback can be successful with an average arm but not with a weak arm.

Yep. He blew $39 million, was dumped by his very-respected life coach, and is now being mentored by a never was. He tried a comeback in 2010 but didn't bother extending his comeback attempts in 2011 or 2012. He lost 4% of his body weight (a guy that big could probably do that with a few trips to the outhouse) and is "pissed off" instead of comprehending about the way the media has portrayed him. Yeah, let's fly him in at our time and expense and get him suited up with gear. I know this isn't your guys' idea but you DON'T want as many training camp arms as possible and it COULD hurt. A message board like this can accommodate ever moron and every idiotic thought that happens by. However an NFL team has a finite amount of time, energy, and resources to ration out towards players on the team and those aspiring to be on a team. Unlike a message board, they can't accommodate every delusional person. The Bills (and other NFL teams) are not gonna waste their time on a 1,000,000 to 1 longshot when they can waste that same time on a 1000 to 1 longshot or even a 100 to 1 longshot. If JaMarcus had followed through on his 2010 comeback attempt and showed some actual sustained effort, there might be some interest. But until he gets down to his Combine weight (265 pounds) and starts showing other signs of initiative besides bellyaching (ie- attending some QB Academies?), until he shows an actual earnest and sincere effort to become an NFL player, only delusional fans will entertain thoughts of making time for this guy.

Interesting article: http://www.armorytrack.com/News/Post/two-kinds-of-speed Here are the top 10 auto times in NFL history. Note that we aren't including Cliff Branch's 10.0 hand time from 1972. 10.01 — Jacoby Ford (WR, Oakland) 
 10.06 — Bob Hayes (WR, Dallas/San Francisco) 
 10.06 — Ron Brown (WR, L.A. Rams/Raiders) 
 10.07 — Alvis Whitted (WR, Jacksonville/Oakland) 
 10.08 — Darrell Green (CB, Washington Redskins) 
 10.09 — Sam Graddy (WR, Denver/L.A. Raiders) 
 10.10 — Willie Gault (WR, Chicago/L.A. Raiders) 
 10.11 — Mike Miller (WR, N.Y. Giants/New Orleans) 
 10.11 — Curtis Dickey (RB, Baltimore/Indianapolis/Cleveland) 
 10.14 — James Trapp (CB, Raiders/Baltimore/Jacksonville)

Spiller's Clemson teammate Jacoby Ford, now a Raiders wideout, is probably the NFL's fastest man. The fastest guy I ever saw on a football field was Darrell Green who was 4-0 in the NFL's Fastest Man Competition. Green ran a timed 10.08 100 meters and barely lost a race to all-time sprint champion Carl Lewis. Green was actually winning the race but the 5 inches he gave up to Lewis proved decisive as Lewis had more top end and beat him at the tape. Green had football speed as well as track speed, unlike someone like, oh TJ Graham. It's a different ballgame when you're wearing football shoes and pants, shoulder pads and a helmet. Some guys aren't the same athlete once they put on the armor. That's why it was so amazing seeing Tony Gonzales at 36 years old and 6'5" 250, convincingly stuffing the ball over the crossbar after his touchdown on Sunday. When wearing football gear, Chuck Muncie a power back in the mold of Steven Jackson, was the fastest of Air Coryell's Chargers, faster than fleet receivers Wes Chandler, John Jefferson, and Charlie Joiner. Bo Jackson probably ran just as fast in football gear as he did in shorts on a track. He was a once-in-a-lifetime athlete. Bo ran a hand-timed 4.12 at the combine. He gave up track and field after his sophomore year despite qualifying for the NCAA Championships in track. He wanted to concentrate on football and baseball. Had he concentrated on a career in track, who knows what he would have done.

Kas, I was being sarcastic about Fitz. I was one of the early and steadfast believers of this offensive line. There are numerous people here who are still very suspicious of how good they really are. Many people believe the "Fitz Theory" and don't believe the Bills O-line is very good at pass protection. IMO, Fitz helped but the line was still good in that area. What I was objecting to in your post was the idea (as with Nitro) that a few stats (sacks allowed) could paint an accurate picture of what kind of O-line coach Morris is. It's way too simplistic IMO. That said in re-reading your post it looks like you were using it only as a starting point and that I overreacted. Sorry.

I liked the job Joe D'Allesandris did also and wish he would have been retained. But as you saw, I object to flip, unsupported statements which attempt to link the quality of the O-line coach with a few stats without looking at the other coaches, players, and all the other variables which are in play. You basically claimed that the offense wouldn't improve based on what really? As for advanced stats, metrics, analytics, etc I love them. I don't delve into them and I view them as being in a fairly embryonic place with regards to the NFL (considering they will be around forever). That said, I am highly suspicious of them. As I've made the point numerous times, who are these people "breaking down the video?" Do all of them have scouting backgrounds or only some of them? Also, to my knowledge the "All-22" game tapes which scouts use to evaluate players has only been available to the public for one season, this 2012 season via NFL Game Rewind. So I think it's very likely that many of these advanced stat factories like Football Outsiders, Pro Football Focus, and Cold Hard Football Facts are grading players based on recordings of network televised game coverage, and not the "All 22." I find that a bit problematic in that in many cases, these analysts are only seeing a small part of the picture. Like I said, I'm excited for the future of consumer available analytics but at this time, I'm very mistrustful of them.

First of all, I certainly don't want to "destroy anyone's life." I'm much too busy making sure I don't destroy my own. This is an interesting discussion to me about how people choose to become invested on sides of an issue. Nothing I've said in my posts in this thread is incorrect and I've not been carrying a vendetta like others have. I don't know how to make it any more clear: I asked the question bolded above. Your reply is also bolded. You think that "because it's too easy to get caught" is the reason Manti wouldn't fudge things but in fact he admitted that he did. He admitted to embellishing the relationship. My "standby" position is not a standby position. It's a position based on Manti's own words. Again, I agree with those upthread who said that Manti was fooled by the hoax but then likely tried to capitalize on it (his embellishments). Then without him anticipating it, the whole thing blew up into something he hadn't anticipated. I never admit I'm wrong? A piss poor showing by me? You easily have over 60 posts in this thread, all ridiculously biased against any objectivity (BTW, didn't you have a Manti Te'o avatar or was I only imagining that?). I'm giving Manti exactly the benefit of the doubt that he deserves from what we know. I've not condemned him nor am I giving him a free ride. Your Manti crusade in this and other threads should compel you to look in the mirror before insinuating that others are claiming infallibility and that you're somehow on higher moral ground here. I don't know if you lack the ability to be honest on this topic or if it's simply beyond your ability to comprehend. edit: Until more information comes out, I'm done with this thread. Like I said earlier, Manti would probably do well to let this die, as opposed to the numerous suggestions upthread that he file a legal action.

Thanks Nanker and JfH. Sometimes you see something so ridiculous that it's hard to hold the tongue. It's hard sometimes to distinguish between earnest stupidity and actual trolling.

BTW, my recollection is that Shefter reported that Marrone had done intensive video study of all the teams he might interview with and determined that Buffalo had the best talent. I don't recall any rumor stating that Marrone made a video presentation to teams he was interviewing with. Small point maybe but anyways, that's the report I recall.

The draft is 3 months away. The Senior Bowl has yet to be played. The combine starts one month from today. All of these authoritative judgements are ridiculously premature. For the record, in the games I watched Nassib play (except for the Pinstripe Bowl which was played in horrific conditions) which only includes USC and Rutgers, I see a quarterback playing against a much higher level of competition. Both of those games were away games against Top 20 opponents. I saw some things from Nassib: toughness and determination, good arm strength, great delivery, and football intelligence. Against both USC and Rutgers, Nassib almost without exception had little time to throw and was throwing to receivers who generally were not open. In both those games, the talent difference between Syracuse and its opponents was very noticeable. I really don't know yet how I feel about Nassib but I've seen zero to disqualify him from inclusion in the discussion of the top quarterbacks in this draft.

And this is why I said that it would be logical for Team Te'o to no longer pursue this issue. Again, if he chooses to sue Tuiasosopo, it would only bring greater scrutiny on evidence which may not help Te'o's case. There is a vast grey area here and it is far from a black and white issue. No, Dibs did not miss anything. There is a wide range between those who are stating that Te'o is absolutely innocent in all his actions and those stating the opposite. The Notre Dame people said that they "did not examine cell phone records, e-mails or other electronic communication to determine the length or extent of Te'o's communication over the past few years with the person claiming to be Lennay Kekua…." The entire issue of Te'o's embellishment of facts (again, HIS WORDS) has not been determined. He admitted to perpetuating the belief that he had met Lennay. Some of his teammates do not believe that Manti is a totally honest or innocent person in this situation. If a person repeatedly talked about a girlfriend and marathon phone calls all the while gaining enormous positive publicity, there is a chance that he not only was naive, but also acted badly within his circumstances. Faustus, there is an equal and equally vocal number of people here (actually more by my count) who think Manti is completely innocent of everything. I think that belief is equally delusional as those who think he was completely complict in this scheme (not me). Why is it hard to believe that Manti was deceived, but also that he made a bad decision to take the ball (enormous positive publicity with little or no basis) and run with it?

Damn! Yes I do now that you mention it. Add to that the fact that I'd never heard of catfishing before and I guess there's only one conclusion to draw.

Some context: "In recent decades, the game has been played in mid-January so that players from teams whose schools were involved in bowl games can participate, which is important, as these teams often have some of the very best players… Even so, the Shrine Game's organizers relaxed efforts towards attracting top players to the game, meaning that many of college football's best players went to the Senior Bowl instead." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Shrine_Game edit: FWIW, the Senior Bowl is played one week after the East-West Shrine game. I'm thinking not too many players participate in both games.

Happy? So you think your findings are actually conclusive? It would be great if the world were so shallow. More people would be smart. We're just scratching the surface of this discussion and not anywhere near a conclusion. Who were the head coaches of those teams? Who were the offensive coordinators on those teams? Who were the quarterbacks on those teams? Who did he have on the O-line? Do you really expect that simply wheeling out some stats supports your statement: "Don't look for a vast improvement in passing or rushing. There is a reason he was not a coach last year." Or as a stat geek, do you consider stats to be the gospel? Perhaps you don't believe in examining the situation that created those stats?

To sue means he would have to provide evidence. It's possible that some of this evidence would not support his version of events. It also comes down to a burden of proof. At worst a lawsuit could open this issue up for greater damage to Te'o. At best a lawsuit might get blood from a stone. I doubt he'll sue both because of what I've written above, but also because it would run contrary to the values that Te'o espouses. He's largely succeeded in putting out a fire. Why pour gasoline on it when it's still smoldering?

Just to break down your post, you're raising the following assertions/concerns: 1) The search wasn't as exhaustive as the Bills have portrayed. 2) The Bills were very controlling about the Q & A to the point where they impeded free Q & A and that the new hires haven't been exposed to true and open scrutiny. 3) Russ Brandon is now the team President and his stint as team GM causes you to be concerned about his competency as team President. To your first concern, taking what we know, the Bills interviewed numerous candidates in a compressed window of time. They also interviewed Marrone at least 4 times. While the Bills were the early bird in this year's hiring cycle there is certainly something to recommend a flurry of activity ending in an early hire as opposed to the opposite (remember Chan Gailey was hired on January 19th). For one thing, Marrone was able to start hiring sooner than the other teams. This could be viewed as instrumental in his hiring of Mike Pettine, for instance. One person could say that the Bills targeted Marrone and all the rest was window dressing while a different person could take the events at face value… that after numerous and comprehensive interviews that Marrone emerged as the top candidate for the Bills and a top candidate for other teams. That is the range of possibility. Normally the truth lies somewhere in between. For your second concern, how is it that the Bills have been team-generating news and spoon feeding questions? Do your colleagues generally share your concern? Have you asked for a one-on-one with Marrone? Are interview requests being denied or ignored? Are Chris Brown and John Murphy being given more opportunities to ask questions than non-Bills employees? For my part, these are questions which you may feel free to not answer. As to your third point, Brandon made it clear at the time of his GM tenure that decisions would be made on a consensus basis. That was exactly the buzz word at that time (2008). No one seems to know who was making football decisions at that time although many people believe that Jauron had the biggest say in personnel decisions. In light of this and the fact that Brandon has stated that he won't be involved in player personnel decisions (and the fact that those drafts weren't any worse than more recent ones) is there really any cause for concern regarding Brandon and future player personnel decisions?

Your autopsy is very accurate. So you're saying Marrone didn't have any other options? How is Caldwell a better man than GM-in-waiting Whaley? Without knowing the inner machinations as well as the succession plan, your suggestion has little or no merit. Whaley was considered a top GM candidate when the Bills hired him to become their assistant GM.