San Jose Bills Fan

It's the same discussion as the theoretical of whether you take a tight end or a guard in the first round. You don't know until you're on the clock and you see what your options are. My point is that you don't disqualify the possibility. I don't believe dogmatism is a good approach to anything (I was just dogmatic, wasn't I?).

Well there's a poster in this topic who has more than twice as many posts as I.

All of these topics are voluntary. For my own part, I'm disputing a specious claim that Stevie is injury prone because he doesn't work hard. That's the one dog I have in this fight.

No one is speculating that the Bills are closely watching QB prospects. There seems to be a consensus that they won't seriously consider drafting a QB. The discussion is whether they should consider drafting a QB. It's almost a foregone conclusion that they won't.

I asked upthread who were the "difference-making guards" in the NFL. I'm still waiting for an answer. FeartheLosing's post was absolutely ridiculous. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens defense is considered one of the top 2-3 defenses in the history of the NFL. That team surrendered about 10 points per game during the regular season and allowed only 23 points in 4 playoff games that year. That's less than 6 points per game allowed. And he's talking about the number of Pro Bowlers on offense. 1) Torrell Troup has no place in this discussion nor does drafting too many DBs. 2) Back to the subject of offensive lines, the Cleveland Browns start 2 first rounders, 1 second rounder, and 3 third rounders. They're a mediocre team with a mediocre offensive line. All that could change with one good QB. Of the teams you brought up, the worst two players on the Ravens O-line are both former first rounders. New England starts 2 undrafted free agents and a 5th rounder. New Orleans starts an undrafted free agent and a 7th rounder. Seattle starts 2 7th rounders. San Francisco starts 1 undrafted free agent and a 5th rounder. Virtuallly every NFL O-line is a composite of high draft picks, low draft picks, and undrafted free agents. 3) It's silly to make arguments about NFL team building based on a college football program. 25 scholarships is not the same as 7 draft picks (of which at least 3 are low-round picks). Alabama runs the ball 8 more times each game than they pass it. Here's a few more questions for the O-line fetishists: 1) How many NFL O-lines are better than Buffalo's and who are they? 2) What are the NFL's elite offensive lines and how many of them play with bad QBs? 3) Who are the difference-making guards in the NFL? 4) How many bad quarterbacks have won a Super Bowl in the last 10 years? 5) How many bad O-lines have won a Super Bowl in the last 10 years?

In the old country it's known as Shepherd's Back. I thought we agreed you were gonna continue to brainstorm ideas to improve the NFL's overtime rules. C'mon JR.

Again, the above is only your dubious opinion. Period. Since Stevie became a starter in 2010 and through the 2012 season he missed exactly zero games to injury and played in all 48 games. THEN he had the interview with Jim Rome this past February where he stated very possibly tongue-in-cheek that he "usually doesn't work out." This interview was replete with joking and chuckles. Stevie revealed in that interview that he planned to adhere to the team's workout regimen because he wanted to be on board with the new coaching staff. Only after this past offseason of complying with the team's training program has he missed games due to injury. So in direct contradiction to your take, only since "working harder" has Stevie missed games to injury. And you continue to ignore very good points made contrary to yours.

Drafting QBs in the first round in consecutive seasons, as has already been agreed, is an outside the box, unconventional idea to say the least. It becomes less "out there" when you consider that: 1) QB has increased in value almost exponentially in the last decade and 2) With the new collective bargaining agreement which includes a rookie pay scale, what used to be impossible is now plausible. I was as big a supporter of EJ Manuel BEFORE the draft and CONTINUE to support and believe in him. The reason I don't think any team should ever rule out drafting a QB highly in consecutive years is multi-fold. QBs are valuable assets. If this QB draft is as outstanding as scouts are saying, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Bills will have a premier QB prospect (AJ McCarron for instance) available when they pick even at picks 10-12. As I mentioned upthread, the Cowboys spent a first rounder on Troy Aikman less than one year after taking Steve Walsh using a first round pick in the supplemental draft. When they determined that Aikman was the better prospect four games into the 1990 season, "Dallas traded Walsh to the New Orleans Saints for a first, third and second round draft choices. With the third pick the Cowboys would eventually select Erik Williams." http://en.wikipedia....erican_football) Williams was a dominating force who went to 4 Pro Bowls, was a 3-time All Pro and one of the most feared O-linemen of his era. In any given draft, there are numerous teams looking for their franchise QB. Being able to draft one is a great form of being able to leverage value. I'm a bit surprised by the adherence to conventional thinking at a time when there's strong rationale for reassessing this issue.

Me too.

I'm sure the players and their union would love that. I think because kicking a field goal is much easier than scoring a TD.

I thought that condition was specific to hoofstock.

Coming from a Ham "Sandwhich" I believe your statement. BTW, when did you and Meatloaf Sandwich start hanging out?

Chandler is a horrible blocker. He's a detriment to the running game that you strongly desire the Bills to have. Lee Smith is a horrible receiver. When he's in the game the other team knows that the Bills are probably gonna try to run the ball.

I don't disagree with your points either but to play devil's advocate: If the Rams were stuck with Bradford but could still get another prime QB on the cheap (post-new CBA) why wouldn't they? They traded away the opportunity to draft RG3 (I work with Jeff Fischer's brother, Mike) not so much for financial reasons but because they still believed that Bradford was a franchise QB and they felt that they could nurture him, surround him with weapons, etc. and make him successful. Conventional thinking. As for Gabbert, he was drafted in 2011 so arguably after his dismal rookie year, the Jaguars could have drafted Ryan Tannehill to double their chances at success. Fast forward to 2013 and with the 2nd pick overall and after a second mediocre season from Gabbert they could have traded down to select EJ or another QB. Maybe a better example would have been the Vikings drafting Christian Ponder and then Ryan Tannehill but anyways, the point remains that teams rarely draft QBs highly in consecutive years.

As has been stated previously and elsewhere, the biggest factor in limiting the success of the Bills offense is the quarterback, not the offensive line. As has been stated previously and elsewhere, worse O-lines than ours have won the Super Bowl. Replace Doug Legursky with Logan Mankins and this team wins 1-2 more games. Replace Scott Chandler with Gronk and this team wins 3-4 more games. Replace any of our quarterbacks with Brady/Manning/Rodgers/Brees and this team wins 5-6 more games. Everyone would like to see the O-line upgraded at a few spots. The question as suggested by the OP is to what degree you invest high draft picks or big free agent contracts to do so. To your first suggestion, the Bills like other teams occasionally use an O-linemen as an extra blocking tight end. On obvious run downs. I know you understand that a truly excellent tight end poses problems for the exact reason that the defense isn't tipped off as to whether the playcall is a run or a pass. A top tight end is no more elusive than a top guard. To your lengthy list you can also add Julius Thomas and Jordan Reed as well as Kyle Rudolph to name a few. "Exactly how many difference making guards are there currently in the league?" Finally your last suggestion (that even if the Bills had a top tight end you're not sure that the player would be utilized) is absurd. On what grounds would you think that this team would add an offensive skill position player at a position of need and not try to use him?

Thanks. In fairness to the Bills, they are part of a pretty conventional group as this issue goes although I agree I'd like to see them being the team that can make bold, outside the box player moves.

As I posted upthread, it's not a debate about style versus substance as far as I'm concerned although I understand how that might come into play in some people's opinions. If we set aside the style versus substance discussion, it becomes a discussion about value and impact. Thus the Gronk vs Mankins question. Here's another question. Would you be better off with 5 All Pro O-linemen and terrible QB or an All Pro QB and 5 terrible O-linemen? Ultimately this is really a philosophical question with no right answer which is why I like the Mankins vs Gronk on the Bills question better. It really has to be judged on a team-by-team basis. Speaking to this discussion in general terms becomes too vague.

I'm thinking that since the rule has been in place less than two full seasons that the sample size isn't really large enough for valid numbers.

I'm not really conversant on tax law at all but it seems like there are two components to this tax discussion: 1) Capital gains tax 2) Estate tax Also from purely a common sense standpoint it seems if there was a contrived and documented pre-death deal to avoid payment of taxes, that the IRS would have a case to pursue.

Still, 25 scholarships versus 7 draft picks? Only the first 3 rounds of a draft can be considered premium picks as opposed to scholarshipped players who are all in the upper tier of recruits. It's still easier to accumulate O-line talent in college than it is in the pros, IMO. Arguably. Anytime a quarterback gets hurt it can theoretically be blamed on the O-line I suppose. I know on the play on which he was injured, he had flushed the pocket and was running upfield. It seems he was tackled high. Arguably also, Rodgers should have slid and didn't protect himself well enough. However I will agree that all things being equal a bad O-line leaves the QB more vulnerable to injury. But I would still take Gronk over Mankins on the present-day Bills, even if they were the same age.

Didn't Marty Schottenheimer do this to the Bills?

It could just as easily be pointed out that the Packers were 5-2 with Aaron Rodgers and 0-4-1 without him, despite having injuries to 3 O-line starters. In fact it's easily arguable that good QB play versus bad QB has as much if not more affect on O-line play that any other factor. That's because the QB determines whether to audible into a more suitable play based on what the D is showing, the QB typically calls the protections, and the QB is the only player who can make sure that the ball is thrown on time. Of course line play is important. But as you said in another thread, it's not a black and white issue.

Well it seems that there are a lot of people here who think Brandon is a liar and unduly secretive so maybe the transparency would be refreshing?

To Bill from NYC and Edwards' Arm: My strong impression of this discussion is that most who post on this board (myself having posted numerous times in accord) agree that regardless of how EJ's season plays out, that it would behoove the Bills to draft another quarterback. This belief is based on two things: 1) The disproportionate importance of QB success on team success 2) The belief that this year's QB class is historically excellent with estimates that as many as 6-7 of these QBs will be drafted in the first round and that 4-5 of these QB can go onto greatness in the NFL. Those opposed to drafting another QB argue that to do so would undermine the Bills advocacy of EJ. I and others have previously argued that any QB not mentally tough enough to compete for his job is not mentally tough enough to become a great QB (BTW, has anyone seen these stories that when RG3 was at Baylor that the coaching staff omitted his bad plays from video review to protect his psyche?). The dissent is not so much on the whether the Bills will draft another QB. The dissent centers around the likelihood that the Bills would do so. This conversation we're having has been very well-developed over the last year or so (even before EJ was drafted) and bottom line, most people would be in favor of drafting another QB but most people believe it won't happen. When you look at Jacksonville's decision to "give Gabbert another chance" and the Rams to do similarly with Bradford along with the historical evidence (the Steve Walsh-Troy Aikman being the only example) you realize that it is highly unconventional and highly-unlikely for teams to draft QBs highly in consecutive years.

I think Stony's saying that stockpiling talent in the NFL is different than stockpiling talent in the NCAA. Drafting and recruiting are two very different animals. NFL teams are not going to spend every high draft pick on O-linemen. Let me add this thought, seeing as this topic seems to have spun off from a few other topics: Who would people rather add to the Bills present roster? 1) All Pro guard Logan Mankins who was drafted 32nd overall by New England 2) All Pro tight end Rob Gronkowski who was drafted 42 overall by New England This is a fair and unbiased question that relates to your subject. I'm not for style over substance. I love winning the trenches. I said in another thread that I like that the Bills have a bias towards running "a bit too much" as opposed to not enough. But I believe that having Gronk would have a much greater effect on team success than having Mankins. JMO.